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[TK514]

Without templars and without a circle of magi, the threat of an exalted march has become laughable. 

 

Where do you get this?  Exalted Marches are built off national self-interest.  They have nothing to do with the Templars or the Mages.  If the Qunari came back tomorrow and the Chantry called an Exalted March, every nation in Thedas would line up under the Chantry banner and go back to war, regardless of what the Templars and Mages are doing.  An Exalted March requires one thing:  The Chantry convincing a nation that it is in that nation's best interests to go to war with the Chantry's target.  No Templars Necessary.

[LobselVith8]

Except the Chantry is not in disarray.  The Chantry leadership is, and will be for a time, but the Chantry itself is too monolithic and pervasive for the events at the Temple to have shaken its day to day operations.  All those Chantries throughout Thedas will keep holding services and keep tending their flocks until a new Divine is elected, and then it will be back to business as usual.  Even the potential 'Inquisitor as a religious figure' development won't overly shake the Faith.  There might be pockets of instability around the Inquisitor if they choose to be a destabilizing influence, but even those won't last for long in the face of an organization as entrenched as the Chantry.  Even the biggest anti-Chantry or ass of an Inquisitor can be shown to the faithful as "proof that the Maker can find use even in His least and most wretched children."  You're not going to change, or even dent, thousands of years of indoctrination overnight.

 

The Chantry is in sufficient disarray that Cassandra decides that the Inquisiton should be neutral, and the Inquisitor will cement bases of power throughout the regions with soldiers and political ties. All this considered, I'm not certain that the Chantry will ever wield the same level of power that the Inquisition can potentially acquire, especially once their former militant arm or their Circles of Magi become part of the Inquisitor's organization.

 

This is the same Anora that purged the Alienage?  Very pro-elf of her.  And the same Alistair that gets embarrassed and apologizes to Merrill for that whole elf thing not working out?

 

When it comes to the elves, the history of Thedas shows a pattern where being human is more important than being national.

 

Queen Anora's initial attempts failed, as I pointed out, but she did make the attempt in the first place; King Alistair succeeded because he took further steps by giving the elves a voice at the royal council, despite the controversy that ensued among the humans.

 

I'd agree that the Ferelden monarchy isn't particularly anti-elf, but they've shown little ability or desire to actually prevent their human populace from doing whatever they want to the elves in Ferelden.  Good intentions are meaningless if you won't act on them.  And seeing how the monarchy in Ferelden is not as absolute as it might be in other countries, they may not be able to intervene.

 

So you're suggesting that the Inquisitor should take further action to nullify the threat posed by Orlais? I don't disagree that this might be required to guarantee the sovereignty of Ferelden and an independent Dales.

[Samahl]

One might also make the point that outside of Africa, no British colonies fought wars of independence against the Crown in order to get independence. Had the Americans not resorted to violence, they probably would've ended up gaining autonomy and then independence like all the other white dominions.

 

Not all fought for their independence, it's true. Maybe it wasn't technically necessary. The sentiment I was original responding to, however, was that the only way to achieve positive change was to be peaceful and polite about it. The fact is, positive change has been achieved through violence (at least, if you consider independence a positive change). That's all.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Except the Irish, because if nothing else England will find time to oppress the Irish

 

Damn right! It would be improper to do anything else.

[Steelcan]

Not all fought for their independence, it's true. Maybe it wasn't technically necessary. The sentiment I was original responding to, however, was that the only way to achieve positive change was to be peaceful and polite about it. The fact is, positive change has been achieved through violence (at least, if you consider independence a positive change). That's all.

its not necessarily better even if independence is a worthy goal.

 

Economies shattered, manpower gone, violent wars for independence don't leave a nation stronger at the end

[Daerog]

With every heavily debated BW thread, there are four groups. On supporting A, another supporting B, another being a kind of middle ground or undecided, and the very sarcastic group.

 

The sarcastic group usually wins, even if they don't talk about A or B.

[Master Warder Z_]

its not necessarily better even if independence is a worthy goal.

 

Economies shattered, manpower gone, violent wars for independence don't leave a nation stronger at the end

 

I don't know, it's profitable for third parties, just ask me about my in the DRC sometime and i can tell you all about how it can be profitable for foreigners who happen to have the right skillset, in national wars of independence.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

With every heavily debated BW thread, there are four groups. On supporting A, another supporting B, another being a kind of middle ground or undecided, and the very sarcastic group.

 

The sarcastic group usually wins, even if they don't talk about A or B.

 

This one understands the true balance of power in the forum.

[LobselVith8]

One might also make the point that outside of Africa, no British colonies fought wars of independence against the Crown in order to get independence. Had the Americans not resorted to violence, they probably would've ended up gaining autonomy and then independence like all the other white dominions.

 

You seem to confuse the fact that the States were brought up as an example of using violence to gain autonomy from an empire with the notion that an exact parallel was being made; let me clarify it for you, once again, that it wasn't. Violence has been used throughout human history to overthrow tyrants; the idea that violence is never necessary is simply a fallacy.

 

Your point is that "sometimes" (when?) it's "necessary" (not actually proven, because you fail to investigate alternatives and simply state that what did happen must have happened) to resort to violence in order to gain "freedom" (which mostly doesn't actually mean freedom in a sense that average people would consider to be desirable, and which often actually means a decrease in actual, legal freedom).

 

When? When innocent elves are murdered in cold blood as part of the chevalier initiation rite. When men, women, and children can be murdered in the thousands because a human ruler wants to shut up her vocal opposition. When women can be abducted in broad daylight while virtually no one gives a damn. When children from the Alienage can be killed by a serial killer without any outrage from the human community. When purges have transpired against elven communities for the better part of a millennia. That's when I think violence is necessary.

 

That...that's not really much of a point at all. You're saying it's not an exact analogy: well, what part of it is an analogy? The part where a Dalish war of national independence probably isn't necessary? Or the part where the bleeding and killing and dying makes things worse even for a lot of the people who didn't die?

 

It's an example of fighting for one's freedom with violence, no different than when I brought up that Shartan and Andraste fought Tevinter because they opposed the tyranny of the Imperium. It's not an exact parallel, and it isn't intended to be viewed as such. I don't see why this continues to confuse you. And I think that the elves should fight for their freedom, instead of suffering under monstrous subjugation under human lords, enduring another thousand years of institutionalized racism with entire populations being subject to purges.

 

You're welcome to disagree, of course, but I'm not even remotely inclined to consider supporting the status quo if there's an opportunity to help the elves in Inquisition.

 

1. Start war for independence
2. Lots of death and destruction and impoverishment
3. ???
4. Profit!

 

A place where elves can build a real future for themselves and not have to roam in nomadic clans or live in dilapidated ghettos, where the Dalish can freely follow their religion without violent persecution, where the elves don't have to worry that entire populations will be purged by humans because they rally against the oppression they face? That's simply a few reasons why I'm inclined to support an elven homeland.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

 

A place where elves can build a real future for themselves and not have to roam in nomadic clans or live in dilapidated ghettos, where the Dalish can freely follow their religion without violent persecution, where the elves don't have to worry that entire populations will be purged by humans because they rally against the oppression they face? That's simply a few reasons why I'm inclined to support an elven homeland.

 

Riiiight because our own history and prior events in DA give that such rosy prospects.

[Daerog]

America isn't a great example. Maybe Haiti, but with no French Revolution?

[Master Warder Z_]

Riiiight because our own history and prior events in DA give that such rosy prospects.

 

Well hey, at the very least it will provide a few side quests to quash a moronic elven rebellion, its  not deserving of a story arc of its own after all.

[Steelcan]

America isn't a great example. Maybe Haiti, but with no French Revolution?

 

The French Revolution wouldn't be a terrible example if the elves were the majority

[Daerog]

Riiiight because our own history and prior events in DA give that such rosy prospects.

Idk, the dwarves seem to be on an upswing, recovering more thaigs and communicating at least with kal sharock. Maybe the elves will find some good ruins that aren't blighted or filled with demons.

[Master Warder Z_]

Idk, the dwarves seem to be on an upswing, recovering more thaigs and communicating at least with kal sharock. Maybe the elves will find some good ruins that aren't blighted or filled with demons.

 

._. Like DA needs the frigging Falmer in it, no thank you.

[TK514]

The Chantry is in sufficient disarray that Cassandra decides that the Inquisiton should be neutral, and the Inquisitor will cement bases of power throughout the regions with soldiers and political ties. All this considered, I'm not certain that the Chantry will ever wield the same level of power that the Inquisition can potentially acquire, especially once their former militant arm or their Circles of Magi become part of the Inquisitor's organization.

 

 

Queen Anora's initial attempts failed, as I pointed out, but she did make the attempt in the first place; King Alistair succeeded because he took further steps by giving the elves a voice at the royal council, despite the controversy that ensued among the humans.

 

 

So you're suggesting that the Inquisitor should take further action to nullify the threat posed by Orlais? I don't disagree that this might be required to guarantee the sovereignty of Ferelden and an independent Dales.

 

Unless you've got developer quotes that support your assertions about the Inquisition breaking free of the Chantry due to the Chantry being in disarray, you aren't being very convincing.  I would agree that Cassandra is following Justinia's wish in creating the Inquisition, and that she takes the Inquisition off the ranch to prevent the disarray in the Chantry Leadership from focusing the Inquisition on the wrong goals, but none of that even remotely suggests that the Chantry itself is in any danger of losing their place in Thedas.

 

Anora made an attempt that was convenient, and abandoned it when it stopped being so.  That's not a quality you want to look for in an ally.  And Alistair, regardless of what he thought he was doing, still failed.  The Hinterlands are Redcliffe territory now, and "Arl Teagan" doesn't sound like a Dalish name to me.  Even with the theoretical elven advisor, Alistair was powerless to circumvent the will of his people.  Good intentions and a cup of coffee are worth exactly a cup of coffee when you don't follow through.

 

What, exactly, makes you believe that things would go any differently in elf/human relations if those 'knife-ears tried rising above their station' right there on the other side of the border?  What makes you think the people of Ferelden would tolerate that any more than they did the elves setting up shop in Blightlands?  Blightlands.  The humans of Ferelden hate elves so much that even letting them settle on poisoned ground was unacceptable.  And if the people of Ferelden did take issue with it, what is the monarchy going to do?  Send the army after their own people on behalf of some 'knife ears'?  Yeah, no.

 

An independent dales would be a rash on the Northern Ferelden border, and eventually it would get scratched.  Probably with the help of the other human nation in the area, because when it comes to elves, humans are pretty much united on the proper course of action.

 

All I'm suggesting is that if you think Ferelden is going to protect a nation of elves from Orlais, you are gravely mistaken.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Idk, the dwarves seem to be on an upswing, recovering more thaigs and communicating at least with kal sharock. Maybe the elves will find some good ruins that aren't blighted or filled with demons.

 

Two weeks later:

 

Scout: Milord I have news of those Elves!

Emperor/Empress: Ah what happened?

Scout: Well being elves they claimed the lost Thaig as their own, immediately started pissing off their neighbors, refused to help the Dwarves battle the darkspawn, and were then taken over after a conflict of unkown origin erupted between them.

Emperor/Empress: Business as usual then.

[Daerog]

If a French Revolution would happen, it would probably be in Fereldan. Unless the political structure of Orlais greatly changes.

[Steelcan]

If a French Revolution would happen, it would probably be in Fereldan. Unless the political structure of Orlais greatly changes.

unlikely since the Bannorn in Ferelden hold the real power

[Daerog]

._. Like DA needs the frigging Falmer in it, no thank you.

 

The Deep Elves will conquer all... as long as no one opposes them!

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

Um... the American Revolution?

You understand WHY the American Revolution even succeeded?

 

This is true if you assume that the Divine spared them from a much worse default fate like genocide, but no lore source mentions one. You could just as easily imagine that the Divine decree vindictive subjected the elves to ethnic cleansing because she was not satisfied with merely conquering an unbeliever people, she had to rob them of their culture too. It is not like Orlais made a point of deporting Ferelden cities into poor ghettos across the continent or dismantling the notion of the Ferelden nation when they conquered it.

So you think that Orlais, after having just captured Haramshiral, would just shrug and go "meh"? Do you know ANYTHING of medieval warfare? They would have hunted down every last one of their enemy's people and massacered them, so that they would never pose a threat again. It is a concept called "total war", which means the utter destruction of the enemy.

[Daerog]

unlikely since the Bannorn in Ferelden hold the real power

 

Well, they already have the Landsmeet, with the nobles and Chantry present. Just need to add the elves for a third estate. Although, they don't have the numbers.

[Samahl]

You understand WHY the American Revolution even succeeded?

 

As I have stated multiple times, the point is that violence has succeeded.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You asserted that "forcing change will lead to nothing but more hate, more violence". I'm not saying that the elves will be able to pull off what the Americans did in exactly the same way (though I agree with Lob that there's a decent chance we'll be able to get Ferelden to back us up), but the point is, violent uprising is necessary in some cases.

Why on sweet holy mother Earth would Ferelden even want to associate themsevles with the new Elven antion? Do you think Ferelden WANTS to antagonize themselves towards Orlais? Do you think they rejoice at the prospect of a war with orlais? Do you even realize how weak a nation Ferelden currently is?

[Steelcan]

As I have stated multiple times, the point is that violence has succeeded.

 

And we have said that it is a poor example to use in this situation for a variety of factors