2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

Considering that they refused to accept 'no' as an answer, I'm not so sure.

We also don't know how the missionaries or templars acted. They could have been encouraging rebellion against the status quo and inciting riots or they could have been very nice, kind, gentle missionaries who took care of baby elf orphans. The Dales didn't communicate well with other nations, that was their failing. They could have been justified with kicking the missionaries out, or not. There is no freedom of religion in anyone's law, The Dales could have suppresses elven Andrastians in their sovereign land like the Andrastian nations can suppress faith in the Creators.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Samahl]

the Dalish continue to offend the Maker to this day and assaulting their brothers, humanity.

 

Are you serious?

[Sir DeLoria]

Wether or not they "need" a homeland, I doubt they could ever muster the forces to actually create one.

The elves in DA are in a sad state and I don't see them recovering anytime soon, if ever.

[Master Warder Z_]

Are you serious?

 

It's pretty obvious pretty much every race more or less is connected to Humanity somewhere down the genetic descendant level.

[Heimdall]

Considering that they refused to accept 'no' as an answer, I'm not so sure.

You have no way of knowing that,

[Samahl]

It's pretty obvious pretty much every race more or less is connected to Humanity somewhere down the genetic descendant level.

 

I'm sure that he meant "brothers" in a spiritual sense, but either way, why are elves held to such a high standard, while humans can get away with committing all manner of atrocities?

[MisterJB]

I'm sure that he meant "brothers" in a spiritual sense, but either way, why are elves held to such a high standard, while humans can get away with committing all manner of atrocities?

It was propaganda.

[Samahl]

It was propaganda.

 

Thank you for clarifying.

[LobselVith8]

We also don't know how the missionaries or templars acted. They could have been encouraging rebellion against the status quo and inciting riots or they could have been very nice, kind, gentle missionaries who took care of baby elf orphans. The Dales didn't communicate well with other nations, that was their failing. They could have been justified with kicking the missionaries out, or not. There is no freedom of religion in anyone's law, The Dales could have suppresses elven Andrastians in their sovereign land like the Andrastian nations can suppress faith in the Creators.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

I think having templars enter a kingdom that already rebuked conversion to the Andrastian faith, and with a population that included free mages who weren't beholden to the Chantry or the templars, would likely cause serious problems.

[Daerog]

It was propaganda.

 

I really would like to see the Inquisitor meet some sort of propaganda official. One who is better than the dwarf criers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You don't see the Chantry sending armies to that bloody Qunari military fort in Rivaian do you?

:/ Despite it being "illegal" as hell under the peace treaty.

I'm actually not exactly sure what the status of Kont-aar is. I think it's part of the kingdom of Rivain, not the Qunari nation. Either way, I feel like if was illegal it wouldn't exist.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm actually not exactly sure what the status of Kont-aar is. I think it's part of the kingdom of Rivain, not the Qunari nation. Either way, I feel like if was illegal it wouldn't exist.

 

There aren't supposed to be any Qunari in Thedas under the provisions of the treaty, them having an armed encampment is certainly a violation of that.

[LobselVith8]

You have no way of knowing that,

 

Considering that both the histories of the city elves and the Dalish read that the elves of the Dales refused to convert, then the Chantry continuing to push their religion onto the elven people would be an issue of the humans refusing to accept 'no' for an answer.

[Daerog]

I think having templars enter a kingdom that already rebuked conversion to the Andrastian faith, and with a population that included free mages who weren't beholden to the Chantry or the templars, would likely cause serious problems.

 

Probably. Competing religions can also destabilize a nation. Only Rivain seems to be able to pull it off, so I don't really blame the Dales with kicking the missionaries out. My biggest problem with the Dales was their isolation, invading Orlais and threatening the Chantry, and later going about with a victim complex without acknowledging their own mistakes. That's just my opinion anyway.

[Heimdall]

Considering that both the histories of the city elves and the Dalish read that the elves of the Dales refused to convert, then the Chantry continuing to push their religion onto the elven people would be an issue of the humans refusing to accept 'no' for an answer.

I don't recall the city elves emphasizing that aspect, in fact I'm unfamiliar with any source expounding on the City Elf view of the fall of the Dales.

 

Regardless, persistent missionaries don't constitute "imposing" their religion on the elves.  Imposing requires force and lack of choice.  We have no way of knowing how those missionaries behaved in the Dales, but they wouldn't have been in any position to impose their religion.

[MisterJB]

I think having templars enter a kingdom that already rebuked conversion to the Andrastian faith, and with a population that included free mages who weren't beholden to the Chantry or the templars, would likely cause serious problems.

Your words offend Shartan.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There aren't supposed to be any Qunari in Thedas under the provisions of the treaty, them having an armed encampment is certainly a violation of that.

It doesn't violate the treaty if they aren't part of the Qunari nation. Rivaini Qunari aren't "real" Qunari. The codexes also never mention that the entire city is a constant affront to the Llomerryn Accords.

[LobselVith8]

Probably. Competing religions can also destabilize a nation. Only Rivain seems to be able to pull it off, so I don't really blame the Dales with kicking the missionaries out. My biggest problem with the Dales was their isolation, invading Orlais and threatening the Chantry, and later going about with a victim complex without acknowledging their own mistakes. That's just my opinion anyway.

 

Well, the elves isolated themselves from a neighbor who conquered the remainder of the neighboring city-states to create an empire under the worship of the Maker, and who the elves had enough trouble with at the time that Drakon couldn't expand his conquering ambitions towards the Free Marches. I'm not surprised that the elves didn't want anything to do with Orlais.

 

As for the war with the humans, if they were invaded and retaliated, then it colors everything that ensued. I also don't think it's a 'victim complex' that their religion is criminalized, their race is marginalized and mistreated, and their nomadic lifestyle is a matter of survival - that's simply how it is for the Dalish.

[Master Warder Z_]

It doesn't violate the treaty if they aren't part of the Qunari nation. Rivaini Qunari aren't "real" Qunari. The codexes also never mention that the entire city is a constant affront to the Llomerryn Accords.

 

People doing purges back at the conclusion of the Qunari War certainly thought differently then you do, and i do as well.

 

Qunari are Qunari, Ideological or connected to their soviet esc bloc, either way they are Qunari.

[Heimdall]

Well, the elves isolated themselves from a neighbor who conquered the remainder of the neighboring city-states to create an empire under the worship of the Maker, and who the elves had enough trouble with at the time that Drakon couldn't expand his conquering ambitions towards the Free Marches. I'm not surprised that the elves didn't want anything to do with Orlais.

 

As for the war with the humans, if they were invaded and retaliated, then it colors everything that ensued. I also don't think it's a 'victim complex' that their religion is criminalized, their race is marginalized and mistreated, and their nomadic lifestyle is a matter of survival - that's simply how it is for the Dalish.

Its one thing to limit contact with a single neighbor, its another to isolate the Dales from all human nations whatsoever.  It wasn't just Orlais, they were dedicated to national policy of isolationism.

[LobselVith8]

I don't recall the city elves emphasizing that aspect, in fact I'm unfamiliar with any source expounding on the City Elf view of the fall of the Dales.

 

According to hahren Sarethia of the Highever Alienage, he addresses that there were issues because of the elves following the Creators, "But you already know that something went wrong. Our ancestors' worship of the old elven gods angered the human Chantry, which constantly sent missionaries to our land. The Chantry wanted to convert our people to their worship of the Maker, but the Dalish would not submit."

 

Regardless, persistent missionaries don't constitute "imposing" their religion on the elves.  Imposing requires force and lack of choice.  We have no way of knowing how those missionaries behaved in the Dales, but they wouldn't have been in any position to impose their religion.

 

Which is where the Dalish version about the fall of the Dales comes into play; although I agree that the player isn't in a position to know what actually happened.

 

Its one thing to limit contact with a single neighbor, its another to isolate the Dales from all human nations whatsoever.  It wasn't just Orlais, they were dedicated to national policy of isolationism.

 

Orlais was their neighbor after Drakon's Exalted Marches consolidated all the other city-states into a singular empire. The only other humans in the vicinity of the Dales would have been the warring teyrnirs across the Frostback Mountains.

[Heimdall]

According to hahren Sarethia of the Highever Alienage, he addresses that there were issues because of the elves following the Creators, "But you already know that something went wrong. Our ancestors' worship of the old elven gods angered the human Chantry, which constantly sent missionaries to our land. The Chantry wanted to convert our people to their worship of the Maker, but the Dalish would not submit."

Fair enough.

Which is where the Dalish version about the fall of the Dales comes into play; although I agree that the player isn't in a position to know what actually happened.

And neither are you, all we know for sure is that before there was any attempt to force Andrastrianism on the Dalish, the Dalish expelled missionaries from the country.

Orlais was their neighbor after Drakon's Exalted Marches consolidated all the other city-states into a singular empire. The only other humans in the vicinity of the Dales would have been the warring teyrnirs across the Frostback Mountains.

And the Dalish didn't care which humans they were keeping out, their isolationism was general, not directed specifically towards Orlais.

[LobselVith8]

Your words offend Shartan.

 

Shartan wanted a homeland for his people, where they would have self-determination over their own destiny. As the apparition of the elven figure said, "It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves." I think the occupation of the Dales by the Orlesian Empire would offend him. It's something I'm looking to rectify with an elven Inquisitor.

 

As a side-note from our irreconcilable differences, I'd also like to think it may be possible that the elven protagonist could have an interest in seeing the apparition of Shartan at the prologue to Inquisition.

[Daerog]

 

 

As for the war with the humans, if they were invaded and retaliated, then it colors everything that ensued. I also don't think it's a 'victim complex' that their religion is criminalized, their race is marginalized and mistreated, and their nomadic lifestyle is a matter of survival - that's simply how it is for the Dalish.

 

Well, it's more about their focus on being victims that irks me because that kind of attitude can destroy a people. The Avvars are not so different, but they are not that nomadic and they focus on their strengths and don't push on their young the fact that they have been victimized like the Dalish do. They are also an overly proud and stubborn people, but they are not oppressed with living in the past and desiring a return to it. They are in the now.

 

 

Edit: I think this may be going offtopic, but oh well. I like having the Dalish in DA, their struggle, their strength, and their glaring faults are interesting and can be somewhat annoying.

[LobselVith8]

And neither are you, all we know for sure is that before there was any attempt to force Andrastrianism on the Dalish, the Dalish expelled missionaries from the country.

 

I don't consider myself a developer, so that would clearly apply to me as well. We also know that Orlais and the Dales had difficulties before Drakon decided to use missionaries, as his difficulties with the Dales prevented his conquest of the Free Marches, which lead to him coming up with the idea of using missionaries to spread the word of the Maker.

 

And the Dalish didn't care which humans they were keeping out, their isolationism was general, not directed specifically towards Orlais.

 

We know that the elves of the Dales were keeping the neighboring humans out when Orlais was already in existence.