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Of course not! I need more than just humans in my peasant class! Need to spread the aristocratic oppression around!
Long live the old order! Now if you'll excuse me I need to gorge myself silly on a years worth of food while my peasants starve.
There's always casteless dwarves.
Perhaps, like the Authority, the elves can take action for a better tomorrow; it would be ideal if that's an option the protagonist can support in Inquisition.
Hopefully the elves will use the mage-templar conflict as an opportunity to take some kind of action. Whether the player is directly involved or not, this is the best chance to act while everyone's busy with civil wars, religious conflict, and fade tears. Hoping that humans will become enlightened and start treating them with respect of their own accord is, IMO, not the answer.
I'm just afraid that Bioware may not be interested in taking the story in this direction... after all, the oppression of the elves is a cornerstone of this franchise's lore. They might not be interested in moving past that.
Also, regarding national vs. racial identity... I think that elves from any nation are better off banding together than taking their chances within the borders of nations where it's legal to execute them en masse at any time. I mean, really... elves have almost no legal rights, whether they view themselves as citizens of a particular nation or not.
I believe that was Maferath's decision, not Andraste's.
It happened after Andraste died, as Maferath and his sons were the ones who actually bequeathed the land to the elves, but it's apparently attributed to Andraste, although it's quite ambiguous as to why; perhaps it was part of the agreement for the unification of the elves and the humans in fighting against the Imperium. The apparition of Shartan (in the ruins of the temple holding the Urn of Sacred Ashes) does say, “It was my dream for the People to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves.”
Having said that, don't you see why a new Dales - why DA Israel - is a bad idea?
A New Dales and Israel are not really alike. At all. The Dales are still predominantly populated by Elves. The minority of Orlesian nobility control a larger population of Elves as servants/vassals, and at the whim of Human Nobles the Elven population is murdered, raped, or brutalized (see The Masked Empire).
Also. Comparing contentious real world issues to vaguely, if at all, similar fantasy situations is going to end up getting people talking about the real world and not Thedas. So, let's try and avoid that.
I find the status quo that the elves have to endure under human rule to be fairly vile; murdering men, women, and children in purges if the elves are protesting their living conditions is simply one example as to why some of us are interested in seeing the Elvhen get a kingdom where they won't have to suffer these rampant abuses.
Do humans and dwarves need a homeland?
Why don't we take away theirs, leave them wandering vagrants or subservient second-class citizens in someone else's continent, and then see if having a homeland is really needed for a people.
Well, I think a distinction needs to be drawn here between two things.
A "Homeland", and "Basic, reasonable living conditions befitting sentient beings".
To Eirene's point, hardcore ethno-nationalism is pretty horrible in practice (e.g. Turkey and Armenia, Serbia/Bosnia/Croatia, etc.).
On the other hand, the living conditions of "City Elves" are absolutely abhorrent. While I don't think forceful dispossession of the lands of other people is a necessary radical step in order to create an Elvish "Homeland", I do absolutely think that City Elves in particular have the right as sentient beings (to channel my inner Optimus Prime) to an existence that doesn't regularly subject them to rape, murder, theft, brutality, religious marginalization and basically every other indignation you could throw at someone.
That's pretty horrible, and needs to be reformed ASAP.
I believe that was Maferath's decision, not Andraste's.
It was apparently Maferath and Andraste's sons that gave the elves the Dales for their part in the Exalted March on Tevinter. That's what I get for not checking facts before posting! 
I thought I had read somewhere that Andraste had agreed to give the elves land in exchange for Shartan's support, but I cannot find this source upon digging, so I'll just toss that out the window.
One doesn't have to support the current state of affairs for elves in Thedas to argue that the entire idea of national homelands is awful.
I don't see what's awful about a homeland where the elves can finally have rights and freedoms that aren't permissible in the Andrastian kingdoms, particularly when the elves have had to endure this status quo under human rule for the better part of a millennia.
No, humans and dwarves don't "need" "a" homeland.
That is not the same thing as whatever you were talking about. I would say that the existence of any exclusive ethnic-national entities is abhorrent, whether they are human nations, dwarven ones, elven ones, qunari ones, nug ones, etc.
Elves coming into a homeland where they can live without fear of being killed en mass in purges (like the one in Denerim and Halamshiral), where the elves can strive to be more than mere servants, where the Dalish can follow their faith without persecution, where they can work to build a bright future for the Elvhen. I don't see this as abhorrent - not in the least.
Well, I can understand them wanting a homeland since assimilating with the other cultures won't only have them possibly losing their own, but they could also go extinct. So, in that case I can understand Dalish not looking favorably on human/elf romance, but still don't like their outright hostility towards innocent humans.
Another question would be, where would this homeland be? Humans populate most of Thedas, and they have lived in those areas for generations. To kick them out would be kind of hypocritical of those saying that it was wrong for the elves to be kicked out.
Perhaps they could buy the land, or some allied human nation could buy the land from its citizens, in order to start a new elf nation. Maybe those who wish to stay on their family's land don't have to be kicked out and the elves can just accept humans being in their nation.
Perhaps the Dalish could just form a new city state in the Free Marches... although they would have to make friends with neighbors and not be isolationist unless they want to be targeted again.
The Dalish could hire themselves out as mercenaries to make positive relations with a nation, get some more resources flowing into their clans, gain influence, settle in that nation's lands, and when that nation weakens, gain a larger foothold and legitimacy in that land/nation. Kind of like the barbarians with the Roman Empire.
The Dalish seem to be the only ones looking for a homeland, the City Elves just want a Civil Rights Movement.
Just some quick thoughts on the subject.
Yeah, they really do need a homeland. Life is pretty terrible for City Elves.
The first time, they lost it to the mages (Tevinter) and lost nearly everything with it.
The second time, they lost it to an exalted march (Templars of the Chantry) and were forced to either live as second-class citizens (Terrible life) or Dalish.
Now, the Chantry is toothless and the mages are in revolt. So, now is the time for them to reclaim the Dales.
One doesn't have to support the current state of affairs for elves in Thedas to argue that the entire idea of national homelands is awful.
No, humans and dwarves don't "need" "a" homeland.
That is not the same thing as whatever you were talking about. I would say that the existence of any exclusive ethnic-national entities is abhorrent, whether they are human nations, dwarven ones, elven ones, qunari ones, nug ones, etc.
See, that's how I can tell you teach English. You use your reading and your comprehension!
I believe that trying to solve the systemic societal injustice faced by elves in Thedas by creating an elven "homeland" is a stupid, destabilizing, destructive idea. That does not mean that I do not think that elves in Thedas face injustice, nor does it mean that I do not think that that injustice should be ameliorated or ended in some way.
The problem I have with this is that all of the races you mentioned already have homelands that are ruled by a racial majority, whereas elves live at the mercy of barbaric human overlords... Even the Dalish are merely tolerated and tend to wander simply because it isn't safe to settle anywhere for long. I think it's smarter to attempt to band together rather than spend your whole life in fear, and even enslaved in the case of most Tevinter elves. You're acting like this isn't the norm for every other nation in Thedas... as far as I know, the Qunari are the only group that allows for racial equality, but even then the tall, nameless giants tend to be the ones in power.
A New Dales and Israel are not really alike. At all. The Dales are still predominantly populated by Elves. The minority of Orlesian nobility control a larger population of Elves as servants/vassals, and at the whim of Human Nobles the Elven population is murdered, raped, or brutalized (see The Masked Empire).
Also. Comparing contentious real world issues to vaguely, if at all, similar fantasy situations is going to end up getting people talking about the real world and not Thedas. So, let's try and avoid that.
I can understand it if you don't like the comparison or don't feel its appropriate, but the poster I was addressing does believe that comparisons between the jews and elves and a new dales and Israel can be made. There is at least this similarity - the new Dales will be set up with a traditional, insular, elven society in mind believing elves have a right to the land and to their practices and bad things can happen because of all of that. Dalish belief in being true elves will lead to problems, their belief in the quickening could easily lead to nasty national attitudes and policies. How the Dales would come together in the first place - getting away from evil humans - reinforces a foundation for extreme racism and anti human sentiment. I can't see how it wouldn't be ethno-centric and all around bad in the end.
It was apparently Maferath and Andraste's sons that gave the elves the Dales for their part in the Exalted March on Tevinter. That's what I get for not checking facts before posting!
I'm pretty sure that the Dalish storyteller in DA:O explained it this way... with Andraste being the one to dole out the lands... maybe he was just giving a simplified version or making it seem more dramatic (with the humans revoking their prophet's gift, rather than their prophet's sons' gift....).
Well, I can understand them wanting a homeland since assimilating with the other cultures won't only have them possibly losing their own, but they could also go extinct. So, in that case I can understand Dalish not looking favorably on human/elf romance, but still don't like their outright hostility towards innocent humans.
The Dalish are generally distrustful of outsiders due to outsiders generally being a threat to the clan - human lords or lynch mobs drive them off when they stay too long in one area, some Andrastians threaten them to convert, and templars have been known to pursue them for their mages (which is part of the reason why the Dalish are nomadic, as Merrill explains).
Also, humans and elves generally frown upon human/elven relationships, as Soris and his human wife faced racism from both sides.
Another question would be, where would this homeland be? Humans populate most of Thedas, and they have lived in those areas for generations. To kick them out would be kind of hypocritical of those saying that it was wrong for the elves to be kicked out.
Perhaps they could buy the land, or some allied human nation could buy the land from its citizens, in order to start a new elf nation. Maybe those who wish to stay on their family's land don't have to be kicked out and the elves can just accept humans being in their nation.
Perhaps the Dalish could just form a new city state in the Free Marches... although they would have to make friends with neighbors and not be isolationist unless they want to be targeted again.
Asunder noted that most humans are leaving the Dales because of the Orlesian civil war, and with the implication of an elven rebellion in the Dales, there might be an opportunity to liberate the region from Orlesian rule, especially with the Mage-Templar War and the civil war distracting everyone.
The Dalish seem to be the only ones looking for a homeland, the City Elves just want a Civil Rights Movement.
Just some quick thoughts on the subject.
The elves in Halamshiral seemed to want to reclaim the city (and were even willing to accept Dalish aid), given the cycle of violence and abuse that they endured under human rule, so I wouldn't be too sure about that.
Well, with humans leaving the dales, the Orlesian Civil War happening, this is the perfect opportunity for the Dalish. They just need to make a deal to support Gaspard or Celene and get the Dales as a reward. Although, that would likely just make them a kind of vassal nation, unless the agreement was carefully worded.
Probably best to side with Gaspard, he seems more straight forward with his dealings, Celene seems more deceitful. Didn't read the books, just what I think after reading the wiki.
I can't believe I'll agree with Lobselvith8 but yes, elves need a homeland. Everyone does.
The things is, Thedas is full. I'd suggest leaving to try their luck elsewhere but most elves wouldn't survive the trip, even assuming there's habitable lands outside of the continent.
Well, with humans leaving the dales, the Orlesian Civil War happening, this is the perfect opportunity for the Dalish. They just need to make a deal to support Gaspard or Celene and get the Dales as a reward. Although, that would likely just make them a kind of vassal nation, unless the agreement was carefully worded.
Probably best to side with Gaspard, he seems more straight forward with his dealings, Celene seems more deceitful. Didn't read the books, just what I think after reading the wiki.
Celene is progressive for elven rights however while Gaspard thinks they are fine where they are.
Phenotypical elves (the pointy-earred "true" elves) are essentially a threatened or endangered species. Some people might disagree with that analogy. As far as we know, however, phenotypical elves (again the pointy-earred "true" elves) are only produced from other phenotypical elves. This means that reproduction between an elf and anything else (human, dwarf, and possibly qunari) never results in fertile phenotypical elves.
I think that phenotypical elves (again the pointy-earred "true" elves) need their own state (territory, population, government, and recognition) in order to prevent their eventual extinction.
Asunder noted that most humans are leaving the Dales because of the Orlesian civil war, and with the implication of an elven rebellion in the Dales, there might be an opportunity to liberate the region from Orlesian rule, especially with the Mage-Templar War and the civil war distracting everyone.
It's not a liberation, humans have lived there for 700 years. It's as much their land as the elves.
If they take advantage of the chaos to conquer it, that's not unexpected. But let's not call it liberation, it's just plain conquest and forced relocations.
There's always casteless dwarves.
Yeah and if this were Orzammar and I hadn't given the throne to God-Tier Bhelen that would be great!
But this is the Surface so I need to oppress me some Elves and Humans.
Well, with humans leaving the dales, the Orlesian Civil War happening, this is the perfect opportunity for the Dalish. They just need to make a deal to support Gaspard or Celene and get the Dales as a reward. Although, that would likely just make them a kind of vassal nation, unless the agreement was carefully worded.
Probably best to side with Gaspard, he seems more straight forward with his dealings, Celene seems more deceitful. Didn't read the books, just what I think after reading the wiki.
I'm not too sure either Gaspard or Celene could be trusted. Briala thought that Celene wouldn't truly support the elves if it threatened her standing with the nobility, and she sacked Halamshiral (and killed thousands of elves) simply to show that she wasn't lenient on the elves. Gaspard is something of a warmonger, and isn't much better, in my opinion. I'm not too keen on the prospect of supporting either one, particularly as a protagonist who is geared towards helping the elves.
Celene is progressive for elven rights however while Gaspard thinks they are fine where they are.
But the Dalish are not looking to live in Orlais, they want their own homeland that they will govern. Celene may be nice to elves within her own nation, but the Dalish will want a treaty/deal that is honored and straight forward. I think Gaspard would be more willing to honor a deal than Celene. Gaspard seems to be a blunt military man, Celene would probably take advantage of the Elves ignorance with national economies and thus cripple the Dales before it has a chance to stabilize. Gaspard would probably just want to conquer it but won't in order to honor the deal. Just my thoughts and gross assumptions and speculations that have little basis on facts.
Still, this way the Dalish won't have to conquer the Dales, just allow humans to leave, have the land granted to them, use money/plunder gained to buy the rest of the land from stubborn humans. Easier than just going to war with Orlais and possibly uniting the rival factions against them.
I don't see what's awful about a homeland where the elves can finally have rights and freedoms that aren't permissible in the Andrastian kingdoms, particularly when the elves have had to endure this status quo under human rule for the better part of a millennia.
Elves coming into a homeland where they can live without fear of being killed en mass in purges (like the one in Denerim and Halamshiral), where the elves can strive to be more than mere servants, where the Dalish can follow their faith without persecution, where they can work to build a bright future for the Elvhen. I don't see this as abhorrent - not in the least.
The problem I have with this is that all of the races you mentioned already have homelands that are ruled by a racial majority, whereas elves live at the mercy of barbaric human overlords... Even the Dalish are merely tolerated and tend to wander simply because it isn't safe to settle anywhere for long. I think it's smarter to attempt to band together rather than spend your whole life in fear, and even enslaved in the case of most Tevinter elves. You're acting like this isn't the norm for every other nation in Thedas... as far as I know, the Qunari are the only group that allows for racial equality, but even then the tall, nameless giants tend to be the ones in power.
I can understand it if you don't like the comparison or don't feel its appropriate, but the poster I was addressing does believe that comparisons between the jews and elves and a new dales and Israel can be made. There is at least this similarity - the new Dales will be set up with a traditional, insular, elven society in mind believing elves have a right to the land and to their practices and bad things can happen because of all of that. Dalish belief in being true elves will lead to problems, their belief in the quickening could easily lead to nasty national attitudes and policies. How the Dales would come together in the first place - getting away from evil humans - reinforces a foundation for extreme racism and anti human sentiment. I can't see how it wouldn't be ethno-centric and all around bad in the end.
Except you are assuming that is what would happen. The Dales, as they exist now, are predominantly Elvish, but in no way shape or form to they have any representation amongst those with power. Most the Elves in the Dales are not "Dalish" outside that they live in the Dales. Most of them do not necessarily believe in Elven superiority, and are more culturally Andrastrianist than 'Dalish" because "Dalish" culture has been repressed in the Dales for centuries.
If there were a new Dales, it could very well be not "Dalish" but simply a nation where Elves at least have the ability to rule themselves and not be subjugated by rich, landholding, racist humans.
If we go by precedent, the Humans are the ones who rule an ethno-centric society that rewards humanness and punishes elvenness. So, we are speculating on what could happen instead of facing what has happened.
Well, with humans leaving the dales, the Orlesian Civil War happening, this is the perfect opportunity for the Dalish. They just need to make a deal to support Gaspard or Celene and get the Dales as a reward. Although, that would likely just make them a kind of vassal nation, unless the agreement was carefully worded.
Probably best to side with Gaspard, he seems more straight forward with his dealings, Celene seems more deceitful. Didn't read the books, just what I think after reading the wiki.
If the elves ask for permission rather than simply taking the land by force, then they will continue to live at the pleasure of their human neighbors. I'll admit that it's risky, but if they want the Dales back, they need to take it so that they can live on their own terms and not have to follow any rule or regulation given by another nation.
The only problem with this is the Chantry... the moment the elves make any kind of unified move, all of the human nations will simply drop everything and work together in an Exalted March... lol... so tbh it's probably just a no-win situation at this point.
If the elves ask for permission rather than simply taking the land by force, then they will continue to live at the pleasure of their human neighbors. I'll admit that it's risky, but if they want the Dales back, they need to take it so that they can live on their own terms and not have to follow any rule or regulation given by another nation.
The only problem with this is the Chantry... the moment the elves make any kind of unified move, all of the human nations will simply drop everything and work together in an Exalted March... lol... so tbh it's probably just a no-win situation at this point.
Good thing the Chantry is tatters then so no more Exalted Marches.
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