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[Jedi Master of Orion]

You understand WHY the American Revolution even succeeded?

So you think that Orlais, after having just captured Haramshiral, would just shrug and go "meh"? Do you know ANYTHING of medieval warfare? They would have hunted down every last one of their enemy's people and massacered them, so that they would never pose a threat again. It is a concept called "total war", which means the utter destruction of the enemy.

Why does Ferelden still exist then? Why does any formerly conquered nation or city in Thedas still exist without the Chantry intervening?

The history of medieval warfare on earth is much less relevant to the topic at hand than the lore of the wars in Thedas.

[LobselVith8]

Well, it's more about their focus on being victims that irks me because that kind of attitude can destroy a people. The Avvars are not so ifferent, but they are not that nomadic and they focus on their strengths and don't push on their young the fact that they have been victimized like the Dalish do. They are also an overly proud and stubborn people, but they are not oppressed with living in the past and desiring a return to it. They are in the now.

 

Having an interest in their past and adhering to their religion doesn't mean the Dalish are stuck in the past. The clans are varied and different, which is a point that has been brought up by the developers in the past, including when Gaider explained some aspects of elven culture in the Dragon Central board. Some, like Taniel, even express that they enjoy living a nomadic lifestyle. A nomadic lifestyle doesn't leave much opportunity to settle down and build a future, especially a life that's a matter of survival against Andrastian humans who constantly pose a threat to them.

[Master Warder Z_]

Why does Ferelden still exist then? Why does any formerly conquered nation or city in Thedas still exist without the Chantry intervening?

 

Fereldan became worth less then it was producing to keep the occupation going, Well that the debacle at River Dane, Sure they won a major Victory over Orlais that day, but it came down to that occupation not being worth the effort to maintain it.

 

Orlais could have kept sending soldiers and gold for decades to keep that inept Tyrant in power, why do you think they didn't?

[Daerog]

 I'd also like to think it may be possible that the elven protagonist could have an interest in seeing the apparition of Shartan at the prologue to Inquisition.

 

That would be weird. "Whoa, did I eat the wrong mushroom or am I near a bunch of lyrium?"

 

I hope to see some more visions of the past, though. The AW part in Origins interested me.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Fereldan became worth less then it was producing to keep the occupation going, Well that the debacle at River Dane, Sure they won a major Victory over Orlais that day, but it came down to that occupation not being worth the effort to maintain it.

Orlais could have kept sending soldiers and gold for decades to keep that inept Tyrant in power, why do you think they didn't?

I meant why didn't the Orlesians just kill all the Fereldens and repopulate the Ferelden valley with their own people if everything was total war.

[Daerog]

Having an interest in their past and adhering to their religion doesn't mean the Dalish are stuck in the past. The clans are varied and different, which is a point that has been brought up by the developers in the past, including when Gaider explained some aspects of elven culture in the Dragon Central board. Some, like Taniel, even express that they enjoy living a nomadic lifestyle. A nomadic lifestyle doesn't leave much opportunity to settle down and build a future, especially a life that's a matter of survival against Andrastian humans who constantly pose a threat to them.

 

I admit that I haven't looked much at the Dalish. I just remember the games and some lore and that storyteller emphasizing the fall of the Dales.

 

Then again, I mostly played human and only finished a CE run for an elf, so my info is mostly bias.

[Daerog]

Fereldan became worth less then it was producing to keep the occupation going, Well that the debacle at River Dane, Sure they won a major Victory over Orlais that day, but it came down to that occupation not being worth the effort to maintain it.

 

Orlais could have kept sending soldiers and gold for decades to keep that inept Tyrant in power, why do you think they didn't?

 

Because making Fereldan a part of the empire is nice on paper, but once you are over there... ugh... the smell, the dogs, the free thinking commoners, the foolishness of a "Landsmeet," it is just a nightmare and repugnant to any civilized man. It is a barbaric backwater "nation" that should just be left in its own filth.

[TK514]

I've addressed that the Inquisition may fill in a power vacuum because the Chantry is in disarray with the demise of Chantry leadership, and it's not "supposed" that the Chantry is in disarray when the developers explicitly say that the Chantry is in disarray, as I pointed out in my last post; you apparently need to re-read what I wrote previously since you seem to have already forgotten it.

 

Except that isn't what they said?  Every developer statement you put up said the same thing "The Inquisition is not part of the Chantry".  Ok.  We agree.  They say nothing about the Inquisition usurping Chantry power.  Or the Chantry being weakened.  Or anything that isn't "The Inquisition is not part of the Chantry."

 

 

You seem to be more privy to facts about the Hinterlands than the rest of us are, since it's only speculation among players right now that the Dalish aren't managing the Hinterlands and that the Dalish Boon may have been handwaved, in the same way most outcomes for Origins were. Until the developers clarify the matter, I don't anticipate it'll be anything more than speculation for the time being.

 

I'm privy to what the developers and the games tell us, yes.

 

After DA: O, Gaider tells us that the slides are rumor at best.

AIn DA2, Alistair tells us that the elven boon didn't work out.

57 days ago, on the Inquisition website, in an article titled "The Hinterlands": http://www.dragonage...the-hinterlands

 

"My lord Arl Teagan,

I retired to the Hinterlands for peace and quiet away from the politics, and because the wide open spaces were perfect to let my horses run. Instead, the war between the mages and the templars has turned your beautiful hills into a series of burning battlefields.

The farmers who live in the Hinterlands are good folk. Many of them left Redcliffe village because they couldn't bear to be there anymore, not after the Blight and the walking dead left so many bad memories. Now we've got apostates running around setting fire to anyone who looks at them sideways, and templars looting houses and cutting down those who protest as mage sympathizers.

My wife Elaina sent off our field hands to stay with her family in the east, but there are a lot of poor people here with nowhere to go. We get more refugees every day: this village attacked by mad mages or that farmstead burned to the ground by templars who can't tell a hoe from a staff. I suppose you're stretched thin, but anything you can do to lessen the burden of these poor folk would be much appreciated. I'll do as I can, and if your men need better mounts, say the word.

Best of luck to you, my lord. Remember not to let Duchess puff out her gut when you saddle her.

Yours in service,
Dennet

-A letter from Redcliffe's former horsemaster to Arl Teagan Redcliffe (undelivered)"

 

Not a lot of wiggle room for interpretation here.

 

Unless you contend that it fails in every single instance except when Anora is alone on the throne, because the woman that purged the Alienage, in a country where it is illegal to defend elves, is going to go out of the way to stop her people from kicking some former bandit elves out of the Hinterlands.  Is that your stance?  "Elf Killer Anora, Savior of the Dalish"?  Because that's the only situation where we haven't been directly told things went bad.  And wouldn't explain why there's still that letter to Teagan, right up there on the official site with nothing to counter it.  Just sitting there.  Saying that Redcliffe owns the Hinterlands.

 

Please stop acting as though you know exactly what King Alistair or Queen Anora would do. You don't. You're free to speculate, but please don't confuse your conjecture for actual fact. As for the point about the two territories, the Frostback Mountains generally separate the Dales from Ferelden. The border between the two nations are the Frostback Mountains; a territorial dispute over treacherous mountains is highly unlikely when none of trade through the two regions is a necessity for survival.

 

 

Trade that isn't a necessity for survival as Ferelden only recently started to trade with Orlais again, which had been barred for some time after the end of the Orlesian occupation. Alternative trade routes can likely be found, and some of that trade can be shifted to through Amaranthine, especially if it's Orlesian cargo that's been imported and exported.

 

It's all speculation at this point.  That goes without saying.  It's just that when I speculate, I don't choose to ignore the history of the setting I'm speculating on.

It is illegal in Ferelden to defend an elf against a human.  We know that Ferelden humans have and do turn on elves, regardless of who the HoF might have been.

 

We also know that trade has started between Orlais and Ferelden.  It may not be a trade route that sustains a nation, but I speculate it's pretty important to the traders that are using it.  The human traders.  Who, if they could use Amaranthine wouldn't be using a land route.  Who will likely see the elves as a threat to their livelihood, especially if the Dales follows a 'no humans allowed' policy.  Which we have no reason to believe they won't.  And exactly what other land route are they supposed to find?

 

Yes, Fereldens hate Orlesians.  I speculate, based on everything we've been told about human/elf relations, that they'll hate elves attempting to rise above their 'proper station' and preventing trade even more.

 

Your opinion notwithstanding, the ruler of Ferelden may feel want to sign a treaty with the elves of an independent Dales, especially given how the Crown is well aware that some in the empire have an interest in "reclaiming their former province"; having an ally could dissuade some of the warmongers from launching another attack against Ferelden, especially if it meant dealing with a two-front war, and leaving it vulnerable to Nevarra as well.

 

First, Orlais is no longer in a position to threaten Ferelden.  The Civil War has made sure of that.  Any dreams Gaspard had for annexing Ferelden to keep Nevarra at bay died when he failed to kill Celene before she reached her forces.  The Tear took that nailed up coffin and buried it.  It will be years, at least, before Orlais is in any position to entertain adventures in Dogtown.

 

Second, until and unless that happens, Orlais and Ferelden are trading partners.  Ferelden needs all the trade coin it can get since it's still rebuilding from the Blight (and then the Tear happened).

 

Third, what does Ferelden get out of a treaty with the Dales?  The Dales would be a buffer against Orlais regardless of if Ferelden signs a treaty or not.  They're the only way from Orlais to Ferelden.  Additionally, why would they risk the ire of their people and their trade partners by supporting elves over humans and heathens over Andrastrians?  The elves offer nothing to Ferelden by treaty, except risk, that they wouldn't get by just waiting.

[Master Warder Z_]

I meant why didn't the Orlesians just kill all the Fereldens and repopulate the Ferelden valley with their own people if everything was total war.

 

...Who said it was total war? 

 

._. I certainly didn't.

[LobselVith8]

That would be weird. "Whoa, did I eat the wrong mushroom or am I near a bunch of lyrium?"

 

I hope to see some more visions of the past, though. The AW part in Origins interested me.

 

It could be quite a surreal experience, but I think the elven protagonist could be there to investigate the apparition of Shartan (depending on how much agency the player has in shaping certain elements of the protagonist backstory). The Keeper or the hahren may have some curiosity about the past, as might the elven main character.

[Heimdall]

I don't consider myself a developer, so that would clearly apply to me as well. We also know that Orlais and the Dales had difficulties before Drakon decided to use missionaries, as his difficulties with the Dales prevented his conquest of the Free Marches, which lead to him coming up with the idea of using missionaries to spread the word of the Maker.

"Drakon decided to use missionaries", there you go, talking about things you have no way of knowing are the case as if they are fact. All we know is that there were missionaries in the Dales, they could not have been in a position to force the issue, and the Dalish threw them out. Period. There is no evidence of conspiracy.
 
 

We know that the elves of the Dales were keeping the neighboring humans out when Orlais was already in existence.

As far as I know, the isolation of the Dales goes back to its founding.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

...Who said it was total war?

._. I certainly didn't.

EmperorSahlertz did. I was responding to him. So when you responded to that post it seemed like you were arguing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Considering that they refused to accept 'no' as an answer, I'm not so sure.

Which is what you SPECULATE happened. There is no proof that any missionaries entered the Dales after the Emerald Knights were posted at the borders.

[LobselVith8]

"Drakon decided to use missionaries", there you go, talking about things you have no way of knowing are the case as if they are fact. All we know is that there were missionaries in the Dales, they could not have been in a position to force the issue, and the Dalish threw them out. Period. There is no evidence of conspiracy.

 

According to Ages, 1192 TE: Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forced others to submit to his overlordship, Kordillus Drakon is crowned in Val Royeaux as emperor. His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east, so Emperor Drakon formalizes the Maker’s cult into the Chantry and commands that missionaries be sent forth into the other lands.

 

Next time you need me to answer something, simply ask for clarification.

 

As far as I know, the isolation of the Dales goes back to its founding.

 

As far as I know, the Emerald Knights guarding the borders of the Dales are addressed around the same time period as Orlais being in existence.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why does Ferelden still exist then? Why does any formerly conquered nation or city in Thedas still exist without the Chantry intervening?

The history of medieval warfare on earth is much less relevant to the topic at hand than the lore of the wars in Thedas.

Because Ferelden wasn't subjected to total war? They were subjected to an attempted annexation. What happened to the Dales was total war, evidenced by the fact that the kingdom ceased to exist in its entirety after the war. What happend to Ferelden was NOT total war.

[EmperorSahlertz]

EmperorSahlertz did. I was responding to him. So when you responded to that post it seemed like you were arguing.

Don't go around spreading lies. I NEVER said what happened to Ferelden was total war. I said what happened to the Dales was. Get your facts straight.

[LobselVith8]

Except that isn't what they said?  Every developer statement you put up said the same thing "The Inquisition is not part of the Chantry".  Ok.  We agree.  They say nothing about the Inquisition usurping Chantry power.  Or the Chantry being weakened.  Or anything that isn't "The Inquisition is not part of the Chantry."

 

I said that the Chantry was in disarray in the wake of the death of their leadership. I've also repeatedly addressed the possibility that the Inquisition could fill in a power vacuum left in the wake of the Chantry being in disarray because of the cataclysm, especially with the acquisition of either the mages or the templars as a militant arm of the organization.

 

After DA: O, Gaider tells us that the slides are rumor at best.

AIn DA2, Alistair tells us that the elven boon didn't work out.

 

Gaider also said the consequences of the Epilogues were mostly handwaved when he explained why Nathaniel wasn't a main companion in Dragon Age II, since he said they handwaved so many things so far that his inclusion would be one too many. Also, King Alistair's words in Act III are cryptic, which is why it's speculation. Is the Hinterlands going to be human dominated, or will it change depending on whether or not the Dalish Boon was selected? I suspect that may be the case, but I can't say with any authority that will be the case, because I genuinely don't know.

 

Unless you contend that it fails in every single instance except when Anora is alone on the throne, because the woman that purged the Alienage, in a country where it is illegal to defend elves, is going to go out of the way to stop her people from kicking some former bandit elves out of the Hinterlands.  Is that your stance?  "Elf Killer Anora, Savior of the Dalish"?  Because that's the only situation where we haven't been directly told things went bad.  And wouldn't explain why there's still that letter to Teagan, right up there on the official site with nothing to counter it.  Just sitting there.  Saying that Redcliffe owns the Hinterlands.

 

I'm addressing Queen Anora, the person who is willing to grant the royal boon of giving the Alienage their own Bann, or giving the Hinterlands to the Dalish, in the event of the death of the elven Hero of Ferelden. Not the caricature you're trying to pretend that she is.

 

Also, I'm not going to indulge your conjecture as fact, no matter how flamboyantly you want to write it. You don't know how the ruler of Ferelden will actually respond, and neither do I, which is why I speculate on the possibility that a treaty between Ferelden and an independent Dales might work, rather than pretending as though there's only one course of action.

 

We also know that trade has started between Orlais and Ferelden.  It may not be a trade route that sustains a nation, but I speculate it's pretty important to the traders that are using it.  The human traders.  Who, if they could use Amaranthine wouldn't be using a land route.  Who will likely see the elves as a threat to their livelihood, especially if the Dales follows a 'no humans allowed' policy.  Which we have no reason to believe they won't.  And exactly what other land route are they supposed to find?

 

While I speculate there could be alternatives, and that I think the ruler may be more focused on the threat posed by Orlais than a few traders who may be at a disadvantage by having to find alternate trade routes.

 

Yes, Fereldens hate Orlesians.  I speculate, based on everything we've been told about human/elf relations, that they'll hate elves attempting to rise above their 'proper station' and preventing trade even more.

 

While I speculate that, after over a century of brutal occupation by the Orlesian Empire, they may hate Orlais much, much more. Since we know that the human armies can be sent into the Deep Roads to fight the darkspawn, I don't think fighting Orlesians on the surface would be out of the question.

 

First, Orlais is no longer in a position to threaten Ferelden.  The Civil War has made sure of that.  Any dreams Gaspard had for annexing Ferelden to keep Nevarra at bay died when he failed to kill Celene before she reached her forces.  The Tear took that nailed up coffin and buried it.  It will be years, at least, before Orlais is in any position to entertain adventures in Dogtown.

 

You don't know what plans Gaspard or Celene have in the wake of the Breach, or what they may do after the civil war concludes.

 

Second, until and unless that happens, Orlais and Ferelden are trading partners.  Ferelden needs all the trade coin it can get since it's still rebuilding from the Blight (and then the Tear happened).

 

As might Orlais, or whatever society emerges in the wake of Celene and Gaspard's civil war, depending on how the conflict ends.

 

Third, what does Ferelden get out of a treaty with the Dales?  The Dales would be a buffer against Orlais regardless of if Ferelden signs a treaty or not.  They're the only way from Orlais to Ferelden.  Additionally, why would they risk the ire of their people and their trade partners by supporting elves over humans and heathens over Andrastrians?  The elves offer nothing to Ferelden by treaty, except risk, that they wouldn't get by just waiting.

 

A mutual ally who is aware of the threat posed by the Orlesian Empire. A treaty could make even a warmonger reconsider attacking either kingdom if it meant a two-front war, especially with the addition of Nevarra possibly getting involved. Unless there's some new ground to cover in this discussion aside from the obvious fact we don't agree about an elven kingdom or a potential treaty with Ferelden, perhaps we should simply agree to disagree?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

People doing purges back at the conclusion of the Qunari War certainly thought differently then you do, and i do as well.

Qunari are Qunari, Ideological or connected to the soviet esc block either way they are Qunari.

Back then it may have actually been true. But regardless, no, not all "Qunari" are the ones the treaty pertains to. It's a treaty between nations, Rivaini Qunari are citizens of the human nations, the Qunari Triumvirate doesn't rule them. Lore sources mention many Qunari settlements in Rivain, but does not mention that they break the treaty.

[MisterJB]

A treaty could make even a warmonger reconsider attacking either kingdom if it meant a two-front war,

Two front wars happen when an army must fight enemies on two fronts, for instance, North and West.

Since, in the event of a conquest of the Dales by the elves, both the Dales and Ferelden would be in the East, it would still only be one front.

[Master Warder Z_]

Back then it may have actually been true. But regardless, no, not all "Qunari" are the ones the treaty pertains to. It's a treaty between nations, Rivaini Qunari are citizens of the human nations, the Qunari Triumvirate doesn't rule them. Lore sources mention many Qunari settlements in Rivain, but does not mention that they break the treaty.

 

You assume it does not Pertain to them, it simply indicates no Qunari shall have a presence in Thedas, it is quite simple in intent, no followers of the QUn period. Nothing indicated in said treaty assumes they have to be connected to said state, its an implication and a loophole at best.

 

Something to rectify hopefully in future titles having the enemy in the backyard never works out.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Don't go around spreading lies. I NEVER said what happened to Ferelden was total war. I said what happened to the Dales was. Get your facts straight.

But your whole point was that that was how medieval warfare worked. Why would it apply to one and not the other? Both wars were in a fictional medieval setting. Thedas standards haven't changed much between the Glory and Blessed Ages.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You assume it does not Pertain to them, it simply indicates no Qunari shall have a presence in Thedas, it is quite simple in intent, no followers of the QUn period. Nothing indicated in said treaty assumes they have to be connected to said state, its an implication and a loophole at best.

Something to rectify hopefully in future titles having the enemy in the backyard never works out.

You act like you have the wording of the treaty in front of you or something. To the Qunari, the Rivaini Qunari are still just bas.

[Master Warder Z_]

You act like you have the wording of the treaty in front of you or something. To the Qunari, the Rivaini Qunari are still just bas.

 

No, i don't but the treaty is implied to state that no Qunari presence in Thedas shall be allowed, Its pretty evident and i care not what either variant of Qunari think of each other, to me they are all the same menace to wiped away for a cleaner world.

[LobselVith8]

Two front wars happen when an army must fight enemies on two fronts, for instance, North and West.

Since, in the event of a conquest of the Dales by the elves, both the Dales and Ferelden would be in the East, it would still only be one front.

 

Hypothetically, if the Orlesian army is trespassing in the Dales to attack either the Fereldens or the elves, then humans emerging from the east and the elves centralized in the south would be attacking from two fronts.

[Steelcan]

Hypothetically, if the Orlesian army is trespassing in the Dales to attack either the Fereldens or the elves, then humans emerging from the east and the elves centralized in the south would be attacking from two fronts.

but that would be an armies push into a front, the actual front is still the east