2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

I'm coming up with 3.  1. Zathrian and the Lady of the Forest.  2.  Merrill and Audacity.  3.  The clan from TME and the "spirit".

Oops, forgot about Zathrian lol

[Shadow Fox]

I disagree. Valor can prove dangerous to the apprentice mage protagonist in the Beyond, while Justice can prove a danger to the Warden-Commander at the Dragonbone Wastes by taking a side that Justice disagrees with.

 

 

Merrill isn't aware that Audacity is trapped; it's brought up in the short story.

Only if you were stupid enough to threaten him and considering said decision involves helping a  blood mage murderess who ensnared and tortures innocent souls...how exactly is Justice the bad guy here again?

[LOLandStuff]

Only if you were stupid enough to threaten him and considering said decision involves helping a  blood mage murderess who ensnared and tortures innocent souls...how exactly is Justice the bad guy here again?

 

He disagrees with you, obviously. Like duuuuh!!!

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish use the "all spirits are dangerous" as an excuse to talk and deal with them, "carefully".

How many times did they get owned by these dangerous spirits?

 

You mean, over the span of centuries since the Dalish clans have roamed Thedas, somewhere close to the span of a thousand years? Out of the innumerable number of clans that exist, I suppose three spirits proved dangerous, although the first two circumstances involved isolated mages who acted without the knowledge of the clan. In the event that an elven homeland is established, I'm fairly certain that most of the Dalish would maintain their stance against using magic that involves spirits, as Clan Virnehn was atypical of most Dalish (according to World of Thedas).

[MissMagi]

I'd be interested to know how you made the leap from 'temporary situation'  to 'permanent loss'.

Oh no, you misunderstand. I said they no longer possess the ability, not that there's no chance of them ever regaining it in the future. Even so, there's no guarantee that they will.

[Hellion Rex]

Only if you were stupid enough to threaten him and considering said decision involves helping a  blood mage murderess who ensnared and tortures innocent souls...how exactly is Justice the bad guy here again?

You also forgot that she's a pride demon by now as well.

[TK514]

Oh no, you misunderstand. I said they no longer possess the ability, not that there's no chance of them ever regaining it in the future. Even so, there's no guarantee that they will.

 

My mistake.

[LobselVith8]

Only if you were stupid enough to threaten him and considering said decision involves helping a  blood mage murderess who ensnared and tortures innocent souls...how exactly is Justice the bad guy here again?

 

Actually, Valor wants to battle with the protagonist, and Justice will fight over the Warden-Commander's alliance with the Architect unless the protagonist has a sufficient amount of points to coerce Justice into accepting it.

[Steelcan]

It's a matter of perception that those spirits can be viewed as good; thus far, I don't see anything that invalidates the Dalish view that all spirits are dangerous, since even the "good" spirits you mentioned can prove dangerous to the protagonist.

 

 

I don't see why, as it addresses that Merrill is aware of the fact that Audacity is trapped, and it's something that's explicitly pointed out by Merrill in Act III.

The spirit of valor only attacks you so you can prove yourself if you ask him to, he does not go out of his way to attack mortals, and he rewards your bravery, Justice seeks to right wrongs in society, both of these spirits have noble goals and intent.  Unless you are going to argue that rewarding bravery and striving for justice are not worthwhile goals these spirits are good.  The Dalish view of them is simply flawed.

 

"Merrill isn't aware that Audacity is trapped; it's brought up in the short story." these are your own words, if she is not aware that he is trapped at the the time of dealing with him, then she dealt with him knowing full well the dangers she was exposing herself to, either making her delusional or ignorant

[MissMagi]

My mistake.

No worries! 

[Shadow Fox]

He disagrees with you, obviously. Like duuuuh!!!

Oh yeah forgot obviously the Warden's always right*both logically and morally* and anyone who disagrees with him/her is stupid/brainwashed/evil/deserves to die!

[LobselVith8]

The spirit of valor only attacks you so you can prove yourself if you ask him to, he does not go out of his way to attack mortals, and he rewards your bravery, Justice seeks to right wrongs in society, both of these spirits have noble goals and intent.  Unless you are going to argue that rewarding bravery and striving for justice are not worthwhile goals these spirits are good.  The Dalish view of them is simply flawed.

 

It's not flawed when both spirits can prove dangerous to mortals. Even Gaider has made it clear that he's never specified that the Dalish were wrong in their cultural view of spirits, so it's not something that's indisputably right or wrong.

 

"Merrill isn't aware that Audacity is trapped; it's brought up in the short story." these are your own words, if she is not aware that he is trapped at the the time of dealing with him, then she dealt with him knowing full well the dangers she was exposing herself to, either making her delusional or ignorant

 

Merrill is aware that Audacity is trapped and bound to a statute, as it's brought up in the short story.

[Hellion Rex]

Merrill is aware that Audacity is trapped and bound to a statute, as it's brought up in the short story.

You just said otherwise in the earlier post, was it a typo?

 

Ah, just saw the edit.

[MissMagi]

The spirit of valor only attacks you so you can prove yourself if you ask him to, he does not go out of his way to attack mortals, and he rewards your bravery, Justice seeks to right wrongs in society, both of these spirits have noble goals and intent.  Unless you are going to argue that rewarding bravery and striving for justice are not worthwhile goals these spirits are good.  The Dalish view of them is simply flawed.

One can be both good and dangerous. Mages, for example, although the Chantry would have you believe otherwise.

[LobselVith8]

You just said otherwise in the earlier post, was it a typo?

 

Yeah, that wasn't what I intended to say (I'd blame it on sleep deprivation), and I've corrected it in case anyone else stumbles upon the post and feels the need to correct me; I was trying to say that Merrill and Marethari encounter Audacity in the short story, and it's addressed that the spirit has been trapped since the war between Arlathan and Tevinter.

[Steelcan]

It's not flawed when both spirits can prove dangerous to mortals. Even Gaider has made it clear that he's never specified that the Dalish were wrong in their cultural view of spirits, so it's not something that's indisputably right or wrong.

 

 

Merrill is aware that Audacity is trapped and bound to a statute, as it's brought up in the short story.

But they aren't dangerous to the average person, a spirit of valor isn't dangerous unless you ASK it to fight.  Justice seeks to right wrongs and make the world a fairer place, dealing with Darkspawn is something anyone should be stopped from doing.  The spirit that helped Wynne certianly wasn't a threat to anyone.  Now Demons on the other hand...  ANd i never said Gaider confirmed one view or another, that's why I'm drawing exclusively from in game evidence.

 

ah I see the edit

[Steelcan]

One can be both good and dangerous. Mages, for example, although the Chantry would have you believe otherwise.

yes, but we have no evidence at all whatsoever that the spirits of Valor and the spirit that helped Wynne are in any way dangerous, Justice could be seen as dangerous by those who are unjust I suppose

[LobselVith8]

But they aren't dangerous to the average person, a spirit of valor isn't dangerous unless you ASK it to fight.  Justice seeks to right wrongs and make the world a fairer place, dealing with Darkspawn is something anyone should be stopped from doing.  The spirit that helped Wynne certianly wasn't a threat to anyone.  Now Demons on the other hand...  ANd i never said Gaider confirmed one view or another, that's why I'm drawing exclusively from in game evidence.

 

Most people don't enter the Beyond aware, so it's mainly mages who might encounter dangerous situations with spirits. So far, you seem to be arguing against the elven view of spirits, despite the fact that Valor and Justice can prove dangerous to the protagonist. I'm not seeing what further point there is to be made when the basic premise that they can be dangerous is already established. Valor wants to fight, while Justice will fight the protagonist to the death over a course of action he disagrees with; both of those circumstances illustrate to me that spirits can be dangerous.

[LOLandStuff]

Not only is she delusional, she's also confused as hell.

 

Audacity must've liked it a lot on top of the mountain if he didn't climb down all those centuries. Must be the view.

[LobselVith8]

Not only is she delusional, she's also confused as hell.

 

People deal with culture shock when they enter a society they are culturally unfamiliar with.

 

Audacity might've liked it a lot on top of the mountain if he didn't climb down all those centuries. Must be the view.

 

Audacity was summoned during the war between Arlathan and Tevinter well over a thousand years ago; no one in the Sabrae Clan is sure which side summoned the spirit, or who bound it to the statute.

[Shadow Fox]

Actually, Valor wants to battle with the protagonist, and Justice will fight over the Warden-Commander's alliance with the Architect unless the protagonist has a sufficient amount of points to coerce Justice into accepting it.

And it's still the Warden's decision to duel him he doesn't threaten you and so do Sigrun and Oghren also the Architect has been responsible for innocent suffering in Amarenthine and is wholly responsible for the Blight and the Mother as well why shouldn't Justice take umbridge at the Warden helping him?

[Steelcan]

Most people don't enter the Beyond aware, so it's mainly mages who might encounter dangerous situations with spirits. So far, you seem to be arguing against the elven view of spirits, despite the fact that Valor and Justice can prove dangerous to the protagonist. I'm not seeing what further point there is to be made when the basic premise that they can be dangerous is already established. Valor wants to fight, while Justice will fight the protagonist to the death over a course of action he disagrees with; both of those circumstances illustrate to me that spirits can be dangerous.

Valor is only dangerous if you specifically ask him to attack you in exchange for help against the demon.  Otherwise he is no threat whatsoever to anyone.  Justice is dangerous to the unjust, which makes him good since we can agree that injustice is bad, and striving for a better society is good.

[LOLandStuff]

People deal with culture shock when they enter a society they are culturally unfamiliar with.

 

 

Audacity was summoned during the war between Arlathan and Tevinter well over a thousand years ago; no one in the Sabrae Clan is sure which side summoned the spirit, or who bound it to the statute.

 

 

She wasn't so culture shocked when she first talked to him.

[LobselVith8]

And it's still the Warden's decision to duel him he doesn't threaten you and so do Sigrun and Oghren also the Architect has been responsible for innocent suffering in Amarenthine and is wholly responsible for the Blight and the Mother as well why shouldn't Justice take umbridge at the Warden helping him?

 

The circumstances surrounding Valor's eagerness to engage in combat doesn't negate the simple fact that he can prove dangerous to the mage protagonist, while the issue of whether or not the Architect should be trusted doesn't alter the issue that Justice will try to kill the Warden-Commander for pursuing an action that Justice disagrees with. Frankly, this is getting a bit circular at this point, especially in a thread aimed at the prospect of an elven homeland.

[Xilizhra]

But they aren't dangerous to the average person, a spirit of valor isn't dangerous unless you ASK it to fight.  Justice seeks to right wrongs and make the world a fairer place, dealing with Darkspawn is something anyone should be stopped from doing.  The spirit that helped Wynne certianly wasn't a threat to anyone.  Now Demons on the other hand...  ANd i never said Gaider confirmed one view or another, that's why I'm drawing exclusively from in game evidence.

 

ah I see the edit

Wynne's spirit will go mental and force her into attacking you if you defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and Justice... well, I'm sure you know Justice's issues.