2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

So, in every single post I've made, I've acknowledged - both implicitly and explicitly by now - that I understand that elves in Thedas face very severe problems, and I've stated that these problems are Not Okay and should be fixed somehow.

Which makes most of your post - your claim that I don't understand just how awful elves have it in most of Thedas, and how good humans have it - total nonsense.

My point is that racial majorities holding total dominion over every nation in Thedas is normal, and therefore it's the best hope for the elves to add themselves to that model... trying to live among other races when no other race follows this path is illogical.  You seem to have an ideological opposition to the cultural standards of Thedas.  That's all well and good, but saying that elves should attempt to follow a different, morally superior path is unreasonable.  It hasn't worked for centuries, so what makes you think living with humans will ever be a good idea?

 

Edit:  Actually, surface dwarves have pretty much integrated with humans, but they were never oppressed to begin with, so it's not really a big thing for them.

[Dean_the_Young]

 
You see "homeland" and apparently think about the end of history, with happy chickies, duckies, and bunnies, where nobody who matters loses out on anything and all the elves are happy.

I see "homeland" and I see an escalating cycle of violence chaining back thousands of years, where every single action anybody has ever taken can be construed as Oppression of the People - whatever that People might be. I see exclusion, because somebody has to define what the People are, and that means defining what the People are not. I see forced resettlement and violence, because there has never been a situation anywhere in the world where the borders neatly match up with the way that actual people on the ground identify.

I see the sole justification for almost every single genocide that has ever occurred in the history of Earth.

Creating a national homeland doesn't solve problems, it creates more of them. Now, you might be okay with the whole ethnic-cleansing trip, and you might be okay with dividing the world up into exclusive little blocks that exist solely to hate each other for how they are different. I'm not. 

 

And here I got the jeebies when the US created the Department of Homeland security.

 

Obviously, then, if the creation of homelands is a stupid idea, but the current system also stinks, the current system needs to be changed somehow in order to better the condition of elves. This will not be a simple or easy process, but it can be done if the historical precedent of Earth is anything to go by, and it must be done, because both of the alternatives are horrifying.

 

 

 

I thought about making some point that there's no obligation that people can't make disastrous and harmful self-inflicted trategies, but it's too somber a topic to do that (right now).

[LobselVith8]

You see "homeland" and apparently think about the end of history, with happy chickies, duckies, and bunnies, where nobody who matters loses out on anything and all the elves are happy.

 

Not at all. I have little doubt it wouldn't be easy, and that some people would die to dislodge the Orlesians from controlling the Dales, but I think the benefits outweigh the cost. Rape, killing elves as part of the chevalier initiation, mass murder, laws that criminalize killing a human in defense of an elf - it's an escape from these horrors that makes the prospect of an elven nation beneficial. At least, to people like me who think the elves deserve to be masters of their own destiny, where they aren't forced into servitude to humanity like they have been for most of a millennia.

 

I see "homeland" and I see an escalating cycle of violence chaining back thousands of years, where every single action anybody has ever taken can be construed as Oppression of the People - whatever that People might be. I see exclusion, because somebody has to define what the People are, and that means defining what the People are not. I see forced resettlement and violence, because there has never been a situation anywhere in the world where the borders neatly match up with the way that actual people on the ground identify.

I see the sole justification for almost every single genocide that has ever occurred in the history of Earth.

 

There's quite a sufficient amount of death as a result of the status quo that's already in place. Men, women, children - dead as a result of the institutionalized racism that's pervasive across the Andrastian kingdoms. Thousands were recently killed in Halamshiral alone. Putting an end to their plight is all the justification I need for pursuing a path that gives all the elves a sanctuary from this, where they can finally build a future for themselves.

 

Which makes most of your post - your claim that I don't understand just how awful elves have it in most of Thedas, and how good humans have it - total nonsense.

I fully understand how crappy elves have it. They are a Grade-A Downtrodden Minority. I have never denied this. So please stop throwing that in my face.

What I'm saying is that although there needs to be a solution to the problems plaguing elves as a whole, the creation of a national homeland for elves is almost undoubtedly going to make things worse. It won't give elves and humans less to fight about; it'll probably give them more to fight about. It won't reconcile elves and humans; it'll probably divide them even further. It won't result in "elven culture" being saved, because there is no one elven culture, there are multiple versions of it that are irreconcilable under an explicitly national government. (What happens to Andrastian elves, for example?) And so on, and so on.

 

That's primarily where you and I differ, because I don't think an elven homeland would make things worse - I think leaving the elves at the mercy of humans is going to make things worse. I think giving them a place where they can rule themselves can allow them to have the kind of life that neither the Andrastian nor Dalish elves could ever have under human rule. I don't pretend it would be some idyllic paradise, but I do know that century after century of human rule has offered nothing but the pervasive persistence of the status quo.

 

In fact, we have scholars in Orlais prepared to write papers about how elves are basically animals. That's completely horrific to me, and the notion of leaving the elves at the mercy of humans when there's another alternative for them is simply unacceptable to me.

 

Others in this thread have suggested that we should avoid real-world examples out of fear of politicizing the topic, and I'm inclined to agree. But without naming names or pointing fingers, I will say that the creation of national homelands on Earth has historically been a violent, destructive process done in the name of a nationalism that I personally think doesn't even measure up to the value of a single life, let alone the millions of lives that it's actually cost. Creating homelands for national communities has not made the people in those communities safer and more secure.

 

I have little doubt blood would be shed if an elven rebellion were to dislodge Orlesian control over the Dales, but I also know that it could provide a much better future than the one they would have living in dilapidated ghettos in human cities.

 

Obviously, then, if the creation of homelands is a stupid idea, but the current system also stinks, the current system needs to be changed somehow in order to better the condition of elves. This will not be a simple or easy process, but it can be done if the historical precedent of Earth is anything to go by, and it must be done, because both of the alternatives are horrifying.

 

This is where you and I continue to disagree, because I don't think the prospect of an elven homeland is stupid; I think it's a viable opportunity for the elves to have a place where they can what they never could under human rule.

[Icy Magebane]

-snip-

That was very well written, and I couldn't agree more.  The danger posed by humans is too great to take chances that integration could ever be successful.  There's also very little to suggest that the majority of humans of any country in Thedas are at all bothered by the unequal social conditions that city elves are born into.  First the elves need to have freedom and security, then we can talk high-minded concepts like integration and social equality.

[lil yonce]

Except you are assuming that is what would happen. The Dales, as they exist now, are predominantly Elvish, but in no way shape or form to they have any representation amongst those with power. Most the Elves in the Dales are not "Dalish" outside that they live in the Dales. Most of them do not necessarily believe in Elven superiority, and are more culturally Andrastrianist than 'Dalish" because "Dalish" culture has been repressed in the Dales for centuries.

 

If there were a new Dales, it could very well be not "Dalish" but simply a nation where Elves at least have the ability to rule themselves and not be subjugated by rich, landholding, racist humans.

 

If we go by precedent, the Humans are the ones who rule an ethno-centric society that rewards humanness and punishes elvenness. So, we are speculating on what could happen instead of facing what has happened.

But the Dalish clans view it as their land too, and perhaps theirs moreso than city elves who would come to live there, if their past attitudes on city elves are anything to go by. Halamshiral was an important Dalish city and the gathering of the clans happens in the area. If new elven territory is set up in the old Dales they will re-settle it and bring their traditions and beliefs with them. You're right, it doesn't have to take on a Dalish character, but I just see that being the situation, and in any case, I don't think a new homeland is the right approach.

[PsychoBlonde]

I think that, given the lack of power wielded by elves at the current moment, any movement for a "homeland" is going to turn into a version of elven "reservations".  What elves need is equal rights, respect, standing, wealth, and influence.  THEN some or all of them can pursue a homeland on their own terms if that's what they decide they want.

[Statare]

 I wish I knew how to do spoiler tags. Because I've been toying around with this idea about the Eluvians (and more accurately the world inside them). But I don't want to spoil things for those who have not read The Masked Empire.

 

I agree that ethno-centric nations are incredibly problematic and cause terrible problems, but I tend to view this as more complicated than I as a modern human can say what is "right" and what is "wrong" for a people whose very survival is on the line to do.

 

Also, "equal rights" is a concept that is probably beyond what most Thedosians could even begin to fathom. By the time it took them to even begin that long, long, process of reform, the elves as a people, and at least as a culture, could be extinct. It is an issue of physical and cultural survival.

 

So, I tend to look at it like this: it's about keeping the elves as a people and a culture alive. I tend to think the status quo is leading to their extinction, so something has to change.

 

And if there were a new Dales: many of the Dalish clans could potentially choose to not settle there and continue what they are doing. It is possible the new Dales would be like any other Thedosian nation, but one where the elves have an actual chance to be in positions of power. It does not necessarily mean they would try what the Dales of old did and close their boarders and isolate themselves from humans. Why would they repeat one of the potential mistakes of the past?

[Tenebrae]

From a personal point of view of course they need a homeland, they have been systematically persecuted (raped,murdered,tortured,humiliated etc) for nearly a a millennia (if you don't count the tevinter period), and as i doubt humans are going to change their tune anytime soon (and you would have to be utterly naive to believe otherwise) a homeland stands as the best option.

 

Alas when i'm playing the game my perspective will have to adjust to fit said character and i don't see my canon human mage really caring about the Dalish unless he can use them to his advantage (and crushing them should they stand in his way).

 

But if the option is there when i play my Dalish mage, i fully intend to bring about the wrath of the elves:

 

It will start like this:

 

 

And end like this:

 

 

At lest if my character has anything to say about it .

[Xilizhra]

 
You see "homeland" and apparently think about the end of history, with happy chickies, duckies, and bunnies, where nobody who matters loses out on anything and all the elves are happy.

I see "homeland" and I see an escalating cycle of violence chaining back thousands of years, where every single action anybody has ever taken can be construed as Oppression of the People - whatever that People might be. I see exclusion, because somebody has to define what the People are, and that means defining what the People are not. I see forced resettlement and violence, because there has never been a situation anywhere in the world where the borders neatly match up with the way that actual people on the ground identify.

I see the sole justification for almost every single genocide that has ever occurred in the history of Earth.

Creating a national homeland doesn't solve problems, it creates more of them. Now, you might be okay with the whole ethnic-cleansing trip, and you might be okay with dividing the world up into exclusive little blocks that exist solely to hate each other for how they are different. I'm not.
 

So, in every single post I've made, I've acknowledged - both implicitly and explicitly by now - that I understand that elves in Thedas face very severe problems, and I've stated that these problems are Not Okay and should be fixed somehow.

Which makes most of your post - your claim that I don't understand just how awful elves have it in most of Thedas, and how good humans have it - total nonsense.

I fully understand how crappy elves have it. They are a Grade-A Downtrodden Minority. I have never denied this. So please stop throwing that in my face.

What I'm saying is that although there needs to be a solution to the problems plaguing elves as a whole, the creation of a national homeland for elves is almost undoubtedly going to make things worse. It won't give elves and humans less to fight about; it'll probably give them more to fight about. It won't reconcile elves and humans; it'll probably divide them even further. It won't result in "elven culture" being saved, because there is no one elven culture, there are multiple versions of it that are irreconcilable under an explicitly national government. (What happens to Andrastian elves, for example?) And so on, and so on.

Others in this thread have suggested that we should avoid real-world examples out of fear of politicizing the topic, and I'm inclined to agree. But without naming names or pointing fingers, I will say that the creation of national homelands on Earth has historically been a violent, destructive process done in the name of a nationalism that I personally think doesn't even measure up to the value of a single life, let alone the millions of lives that it's actually cost. Creating homelands for national communities has not made the people in those communities safer and more secure.

Obviously, then, if the creation of homelands is a stupid idea, but the current system also stinks, the current system needs to be changed somehow in order to better the condition of elves. This will not be a simple or easy process, but it can be done if the historical precedent of Earth is anything to go by, and it must be done, because both of the alternatives are horrifying.

If the Dalish tried to integrate into Andrastian society, their culture would be obliterated, as the Chantry tolerates neither their religion nor their means of handling mages. Unless your proposed solution is to wait several more centuries in the hope that the Chantry might somehow become more tolerant (along with other nations), I see no other option.

[drake heath]

"Their culture."

 

And what about the Dalish culture is so worth saving again?

 

And, say, what puts it above the hundreds of other cultures that vanish and change into something unrecognizable?

 

Their religion? Their language? Their nomadic life?

 

Cuz, you know, in real life, there ain't too many people crying over the fact that no one speaks Gothic anymore or that no one worships Egyptian gods anymore (besides "neo-pagans", but revivalist religions don't count).

 

My culture, language, etc. wont be around in five thousands year either, and you don't see me crying about it.

 

If anyone should have a "nation" it should be the city elves, and most of them ain't Dalish.

[LobselVith8]

If the Dalish tried to integrate into Andrastian society, their culture would be obliterated, as the Chantry tolerates neither their religion nor their means of handling mages. Unless your proposed solution is to wait several more centuries in the hope that the Chantry might somehow become more tolerant (along with other nations), I see no other option.

 

The threat posed by the Chantry has been one of the main issues with the prospect of an independent elven kingdom, but I think the Inquisition can change that. Now seems like the perfect opportunity for the elves to make their move: Orlais is dealing with infighting between two nobles vying for the throne, the Chantry is severely weakened with the loss of it's militant arm, and the region is in such disarray that it requires intervention. Due to these conflicts, the Inquisition can fill in the power vacuum left in the wake of the Chantry becoming weakened due to the events of the cataclysm, as well as the loss of the Circles and their militant arm of Seekers and templars. Since the Inquisitor seems to be viewed as some religiously significant figure by some people, and can help fold either the mages or the templars into the Inquisition as a militant arm of this neutral organization, I think the involvement of the protagonist could make all the difference in this matter of elven autonomy.

 

Past mistakes can be learned from as well. The Dales originally fell against Orlesian and Chantry forces because it was alone, but that doesn't have to be the case now. If the Inquisitor could be involved in helping the Dales gain autonomy as an autonomous state, it wouldn't be implausible for the protagonist to forge an alliance between the Dales and Ferelden as one of the next steps following the kingdom becoming independent of the Orlesian Empire; even a warmonger sitting on the throne might be hesitant about attacking either nation if it meant getting involved in a two-front war, especially as the conflict would leave Orlais vulnerable to Nevarra, whom they have had territorial disputes with for some time now.

 

There's also opportunity to seize upon. As the land of the Dales also seems to be connected to the entrance to the surface gate of Orzammar, the Inquisition could step in and seize control of the lyrium supply, which might be a necessity once either the mages or the templars are part of the organization. Lyrium is quite valuable, and it's said to command a price higher than diamond in Tevinter. Having the elves be a part of this could help vitalize an elven kingdom, as well as support the needs of the Inquisition's militant arm of templars or mages.

[Xilizhra]

"Their culture."

 

And what about the Dalish culture is so worth saving again?

 

And, say, what puts it above the hundreds of other cultures that vanish and change into something unrecognizable?

 

Their religion? Their language? Their quasi-nomadic life?

 

Cuz, you know, in real life, there ain't too many people crying over the fact that no one speaks Gothic anymore or that no one worships Egyptian gods anymore (besides "neo-pagans", but revivalist religions don't count).

 

My culture, language, etc. wont be around in five thousands year either, and you don't see me crying about it.

I have to ask this to create a workable analogy: where are you from?

 

 

The threat posed by the Chantry has been one of the main issues with the prospect of an independent elven kingdom, but I think the Inquisition can change that. Now seems like the perfect opportunity for the elves to make their move: Orlais is dealing with infighting between two nobles vying for the throne, the Chantry is severely weakened with the loss of it's militant arm, and the region is in such disarray that it requires intervention. Due to these conflicts, the Inquisition can fill in the power vacuum left in the wake of the Chantry becoming weakened due to the events of the cataclysm, as well as the loss of the Circles and their militant arm of Seekers and templars. Since the Inquisitor seems to be viewed as some religiously significant figure by some people, and can help fold either the mages or the templars into the Inquisition as a militant arm of this neutral organization, I think the involvement of the protagonist could make all the difference in this matter of elven autonomy.

 

Past mistakes can be learned from as well. The Dales originally fell against Orlesian and Chantry forces because it was alone, but that doesn't have to be the case now. If the Inquisitor could be involved in helping the Dales gain autonomy as an autonomous state, it wouldn't be implausible for the protagonist to forge an alliance between the Dales and Ferelden as one of the next steps following the kingdom becoming independent of the Orlesian Empire; even a warmonger sitting on the throne might be hesitant about attacking either nation if it meant getting involved in a two-front war, especially as the conflict would leave Orlais vulnerable to Nevarra, whom they have had territorial disputes with for some time now.

 

There's also opportunity to seize upon. As the land of the Dales also seems to be connected to the entrance to the surface gate of Orzammar, the Inquisition could step in and seize control of the lyrium supply, which might be a necessity once either the mages or the templars are part of the organization. Lyrium is quite valuable, and it's said to command a price higher than diamond in Tevinter. Having the elves be a part of this could help vitalize an elven kingdom, as well as support the needs of the Inquisition's militant arm of templars or mages.

Two small problems: "the elves" don't possess even a weak semblance of unity right now, and the Inquisition's forces appear to be almost entirely human. If something is to be made from this particular batch of chaos, the Inquisition will need to unite as many Dalish as possible, and ensure that they're vital enough to closing the Breach to get the human powers to listen, because they can't all be crushed.

[drake heath]

I have to ask this to create a workable analogy: where are you from?

North Carolina, but really, the idea works where ever you are, if you go five thousand years into the future the likelihood of their being English speaking Americans is very low to non-existent.

 

Like go back two thousand years and the British Isles was entirely populated by Celtic speaking peoples who worshiped Celtic gods, now, the only Celtic languages that are spoken are revived languages used as a sort of national identity and and Celtic paganism is simply a poor revival imitation.

Or Turkey, most now speak an Altaic-Turkish (don't remember what the classification is) language and are mostly Muslims, but a thousand years ago it was the Greek speaking Christian heartland of the Byzantine Empire.

Or like how Zoroastrianism was the most dominant religion in Persia, but now it's just a small community that's slowly dying out.

 

Some cultures manage to survive that long, but, they're often very isolated and stagnate to the point of no advancement at all.

[Iakus]

If the Dalish tried to integrate into Andrastian society, their culture would be obliterated, as the Chantry tolerates neither their religion nor their means of handling mages. Unless your proposed solution is to wait several more centuries in the hope that the Chantry might somehow become more tolerant (along with other nations), I see no other option.

 

 

Well, there's always conquering Seheron for the Dalish and making them a buffer between the Qunari and Tevinter...

[Icy Magebane]

Two small problems: "the elves" don't possess even a weak semblance of unity right now, and the Inquisition's forces appear to be almost entirely human. If something is to be made from this particular batch of chaos, the Inquisition will need to unite as many Dalish as possible, and ensure that they're vital enough to closing the Breach to get the human powers to listen, because they can't all be crushed.

This is part of the reason why I would like the Dalish clans to attempt to do this independent of the player... logically it's the best time to try something bold.  Once these crises pass, it might be hundreds of years before the humans are this weak and disorganized.  I guess at that point, however, it would be up to individual Inquisitors to decided whether to support, attack, or ignore them...

[Xilizhra]

North Carolina, but really, the idea works where ever you are, if you go five thousand years into the future the likelihood of their being English speaking Americans is very low to non-existent.

 

Like go back two thousand years and the British Isles was entirely populated by Celtic speaking peoples who worshiped Celtic gods, now, the only Celtic languages that are spoken are revived languages used as a sort of national identity and and Celtic paganism is simply a poor revival imitation.

 

Some cultures manage to survive that long, but, they're often very isolated and stagnate to the point of no advancement at all.

Quite frankly, I'd say that modern Judaism and Christianity are poor imitations of how they were practiced shortly after their creation; religions evolve. But that's another topic. The point is to say that this isn't cultural evolution slowly eliminating the Dalish culture as it's practiced now; this is about the immediate destruction of their entire way of life that would occur if they tried to integrate into Andrastian nations.

[LobselVith8]

Two small problems: "the elves" don't possess even a weak semblance of unity right now, and the Inquisition's forces appear to be almost entirely human. If something is to be made from this particular batch of chaos, the Inquisition will need to unite as many Dalish as possible, and ensure that they're vital enough to closing the Breach to get the human powers to listen, because they can't all be crushed.

 

There are a plethora of elves who live in the Dales, most of the humans are fleeing due to the chaos of the civil war, and there is said to be Dalish in the Dales in Inquisition, possibly most of the clans if the Arlathvenn is taking place at this time (which was previously mentioned by Fenris to Merrill, as he said the clans would be making their way to gather outside Halamshiral).

[Iakus]

Quite frankly, I'd say that modern Judaism and Christianity are poor imitations of how they were practiced shortly after their creation; religions evolve. But that's another topic. The point is to say that this isn't cultural evolution slowly eliminating the Dalish culture as it's practiced now; this is about the immediate destruction of their entire way of life that would occur if they tried to integrate into Andrastian nations.

 

 hate to say it, but the Dalish culture has already changed.  And still is.

 

I mean, the elves of the Dales (and of Elvhenan before that) were not wandering nomads.  And the Dalish in modern times are becoming increasingly clannish, isolated even from other Dalish.  They are splintering into hundreds of different subcultures.  They don't even consider city elves to be 'true" elves anymore.  And if they ever got a homeland again, I doubt they'd welcome any home.

[Statare]

"Their culture."

 

And what about the Dalish culture is so worth saving again?

 

And, say, what puts it above the hundreds of other cultures that vanish and change into something unrecognizable?

 

Their religion? Their language? Their nomadic life?

 

Cuz, you know, in real life, there ain't too many people crying over the fact that no one speaks Gothic anymore or that no one worships Egyptian gods anymore (besides "neo-pagans", but revivalist religions don't count).

 

My culture, language, etc. wont be around in five thousands year either, and you don't see me crying about it.

 

If anyone should have a "nation" it should be the city elves, and most of them ain't Dalish.

 

Cultural evolution through syncretism is different than cultural death through systematic repression. To really crtique what you are saying I would have to go into Neocolonial theory, but again, Thedas is a fictional world. Real life need not apply.

 

The elves, because of their genetics, could vanish. Another thing is: perhaps elven cultural knowledge is important. Thedas is not real, for all we know the elves know things or can do things the humans don't know or can't do that are or will be important.

 

Beyond that, groups of people have a right to preserve their culture. Simply because cultures disappear over time does not mean we should say, "whatever lol. In 500 years no one will even know I existed, might as well resign myself to that." 

[drake heath]

Quite frankly, I'd say that modern Judaism and Christianity are poor imitations of how they were practiced shortly after their creation; religions evolve. But that's another topic. The point is to say that this isn't cultural evolution slowly eliminating the Dalish culture as it's practiced now; this is about the immediate destruction of their entire way of life that would occur if they tried to integrate into Andrastian nations.

But aren't most elves Andrastian and from the cities?

 

If the Dalish get their kingdom will they force Andrastian city elves to follow their culture?

 

The old Elvish culture was lost when their first empire fell to the Tevinter; the Dalish now are just clannish, xenophobic nomads with a small gene pool, the new Elvish culture is the city elves.

 

And really, just better treatment in their human homelands would probably be better than an independent kingdom, like for instance, what would an elf from Antiva have in common with an elf from a Dalish clan versus what he would have in common with an Antivan human?

[Jazzpha]

Ooof, I leave to have dinner and I come back to the curtains being set on fire.

 

I love you guys.

 

First off, apologies for starting a minor-key dust up with my heavy-handed analogy a few pages back; I didn't know what the general etiquette was on these boards about bringing in politicized IRL examples to address loaded allegorical conflicts in the DA universe. No offense intended, obviously.

 

Moving on! Part of me can't help but wonder if maybe the Chaisnd and the Dalish could co-habitate in some sort of unified civilization, independent of Chantry-dominated dogma influence? Not that the Dlaish and the Chaisnd are identical or anything, but they seem to have more than a few commonalities, and it might help offset the fears of violent displacement or an otherwise upheaval-laden transition, since the Chaisnd seem pretty cool with the elves and vice versa, as far as I can tell.

 

Just a thought.

[Icy Magebane]

But aren't most elves Andrastian and from the cities?

 

If the Dalish get their kingdom will they force Andrastian city elves to follow their culture?

 

The old Elvish culture was lost when their first empire fell to the Tevinter; the Dalish now are just clannish, xenophobic nomads, the new Elvish culture is the city elves.

 

And really, just better treatment in their human homelands would probably be better than an independent kingdom, like for instance, what would an elf from Antiva have in common with an elf from a Dalish clan versus what he would have in common with an Antivan human?

Even if it was divided between the Eastern (Andrastian) and Western (Dalish) Dales, it would be better than living at the mercy of humans.  And to reiterate, there is no evidence that humans will ever agree to legal and social equality with elves.  After hundreds of years, there is still no precedent to suggest this is likely to occur on its own.

[drake heath]

Even if it was divided between the Eastern (Andrastian) and Western (Dalish) Dales, it would be better than living at the mercy of humans.  And to reiterate, there is no evidence that humans will ever agree to legal and social equality with elves.  After hundreds of years, there is still no precedent to suggest this is likely to occur on its own.

You'd have to divide the Dales into more than just two parts, Antivan elves don't have much in common with Orlesian elves, elves from Tevinter wouldn't have much in common with elves from Ferelden, etc.

 

And the Dalish, you'd need to give each clan their own little land, otherwise they're going to start fighting amongst themselves for power.

 

It's such a mess you'd be better off giving elves enclaves in their respective homelands, rather than in the Dales.

Like convincing the crowned heads and nobles of Thedas to partition some land of their realm and appoint an elven duke to rule it as an autonomous vassal. (Which, admittedly, is the really hard part.)

That would go a long way to elven acceptance and autonomy than just shoving every elf in Thedas into a single valley and expecting them to work it out.

[LobselVith8]

 hate to say it, but the Dalish culture has already changed.  And still is.

 

I mean, the elves of the Dales (and of Elvhenan before that) were not wandering nomads.  And the Dalish in modern times are becoming increasingly clannish, isolated even from other Dalish.  They are splintering into hundreds of different subcultures. 

 

A nomadic lifestyle is a necessity when their religion is criminalized and their culture is outlawed by the Chantry. While the clans certainly vary and stay separate as a matter of survival, they all gather for the Arlathvenn; it's not as though they are irrevocably separated.

 

They don't even consider city elves to be 'true" elves anymore. 

 

You seem to be conflating the attitude of some Dalish with all of them. Some city elves don't consider the elves who try to live outside the Alienage as elves, either.

 

And if they ever got a homeland again, I doubt they'd welcome any home.

 

The Dalish have no problem welcoming elves into their clans who want to join them, like Lanaya, Pol, or the unnamed elven Circle mage who joined Ariane's clan, and they have rescued elves they have come across, like Aneirin. I don't see why you think the Dalish would turn away city elves when one of their primary historians, and their hahren, talk about the Dalish and the city elves living together in an independent elven kingdom.

[Xilizhra]

But aren't most elves Andrastian and from the cities?

 

If the Dalish get their kingdom will they force Andrastian city elves to follow their culture?

 

The old Elvish culture was lost when their first empire fell to the Tevinter; the Dalish now are just clannish, xenophobic nomads with a small gene pool, the new Elvish culture is the city elves.

 

And really, just better treatment in their human homelands would probably be better than an independent kingdom, like for instance, what would an elf from Antiva have in common with an elf from a Dalish clan versus what he would have in common with an Antivan human?

None of that is the point. Andrastian elves are another matter entirely. I was referring solely to the Dalish when I was talking about the destruction of their culture, and to be frank, I don't want it to be destroyed; saying that the city elves are the "new elvish culture" commits exactly the same crime you accuse the Dalish of.