2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Dabrikishaw]

I know they look human, I'm just saying that they can and do possess traits from their elven parents without obviously setting themselves apart.

Like Feynriel's face

[TheJediSaint]

Nobody's contesting that they're not human, just that they sometimes demonstrate certain traits from their elven parent, traits that don't set them apart from humans but still are there.

Like with children of with two human parents, the appearance of a child from an elf-human bond likely can favor one parent over the other.  It's just that for whatever reason, pointy ears and other exclusively elfy traits are not transferable.

[Osena109]

I allways felt the dalish  made up the story of there great homeland how the were immortal i think  the were more savage and used blood magic to increse there life spains 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

It actually does make sense if you think about it, considering they were able to make things like the Eluvians that only work properly for elves.

 

And it would fit with their track record of inadvertently screwing themselves over in a hilarious fashion.

[MissMagi]

 

Clearly we should instead go back to the massive empires of the centuries before that, because if there's one thing Rome was good at it was getting along peacefu/- wait what?

A massive empire like the Chantry? Indeed. The Pope and the Divine have both had a penchant for "peace", historically, especially against people whose beliefs differ from their own. 

 

Divine Renata I calling an Exalted March on the Dales comes to mind.

[Steelcan]

 

 

A massive empire like the Chantry? Indeed. The Pope and the Divine have both had a penchant for "peace", historically, especially against people whose beliefs differ from their own. 

 

Divine Renata I calling an Exalted March on the Dales comes to mind.

 

the Chantry isn't an empire, it has no nations subservient to it, it has no ability to raise troops off of land it owns, it cannot collect taxes from peasants.

 

 

furthermore, wrong Rome

[Dabrikishaw]

I allways felt the dalish  made up the story of there great homeland how the were immortal i think  the were more savage and used blood magic to increse there life spains 

I won't lie, that idea's passed around in my head sometimes. Zatherian's curse might even be how the ancient elves had their immortality. 

[Heimdall]

Like with children of with two human parents, the appearance of a child from an elf-human bond likely can favor one parent over the other.  It's just that for whatever reason, pointy ears and other exclusively elfy traits are not transferable.

Exactly what I mean, the obviously elfy traits don't transfer, but others can.

[Heimdall]

 

 

A massive empire like the Chantry? Indeed. The Pope and the Divine have both had a penchant for "peace", historically, especially against people whose beliefs differ from their own. 

 

Divine Renata I calling an Exalted March on the Dales comes to mind.

 

Well, that's the Dalish version of the story.  The other version says Renata I only called an Exalted March after the Dalish sacked Val Royeaux (And presumably the Grand Cathedral within it)

[Samahl]

There is no such thing as a "half-elf" so it would look entirely human.

 

Which is why I didn't say a "half-elf". Someone with one elven parent will share half of their heritage with their elven side. My question essentially boils down to "how much human blood can an elf possess and still be an elf?"

[TK514]

Which is why I didn't say a "half-elf". Someone with one elven parent will share half of their heritage with their elven side. My question essentially boils down to "how much human blood can an elf possess and still be an elf?"

 

0%, since Gaider has said the problem isn't genetic, it's magical.

[Dabrikishaw]

Well, that's the Dalish version of the story.  The other version says Renata I only called an Exalted March after the Dalish sacked Val Royeaux (And presumably the Grand Cathedral within it)

Considering the ancient elves practiced slavery, had a rigid caste system, and kept the lower castes in conditions that were similar to those of the city elves today, I have to wonder if the Chantry version of that story is the correct one after all.

[Master Warder Z_]

Considering the ancient elves practiced slavery, had a rigid caste system, and kept the lower castes in conditions that were similar to those of the city elves today, I have to wonder if the Chantry version of that story is the correct one after all.

 

Them letting Orlais burn around them during the second blight speaks volumes for their character.

 

And no that wasn't sarcasm.

[MissMagi]

the Chantry isn't an empire, it has no nations subservient to it, it has no ability to raise troops off of land it owns, it cannot collect taxes from peasants.

 

What would you call it? An empire can denote a political organization controlled by a supreme authority (i.e the Divine). Even if you ignore this, the Chantry is more powerful than any single nation in Thedas, and from its installation the Chantry has been all but synonymous with Orlais, itself the most powerful nation in Thedas.

• Orlais  got its name from the sons of Andraste
• The first Orlesian emperor's first act was to make the Chantry the official religion of the Empire. He also created the offices of the Divine. His image is now as prominent in Orlesian chantries as Andraste's.
•   The sun is the symbol of the Chantry and a part of Orlais' symbol as well. In fact, Divine Faustine II was preparing to call the Dragon Age the Sun Age as a celebration of Orlesian glory.
• One of the core principles of the Chantry decrees that the Maker will only return if the Chant is spread to all four corners of the world. This is the Chantry's ultimate goal, and they have Exalted Marches (which only a Divine has the authority to call) which they use both to forcibly convert others, and to annex them into the Orlesian Empire.Orlais is aggressively expansionist, and so is the Chantry. They act as one.
• Each individual grand cleric oversees multiple temples within a division or city, and enjoys the power and influence reserved for their jurisdiction's highest nobility. Only nobles can become chevaliers, who have absolute authority over the common people. In Orlais, only nobles can own land, and the Divine is their superior.
• The Divine called the Exalted March on the Dales, a March that only Orlais contributed forces to. That same Divine apparently had the authority to order alienages built, not just in Orlais, but in other nations as well. We know of alienages in Fereldan, Kirkwall, and the Tevinter Imperium.

 

So even if you don't call the Chantry an empire, it has all the power of one, and its history is no less built on the blood of others.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Which is why I didn't say a "half-elf". Someone with one elven parent will share half of their heritage with their elven side. My question essentially boils down to "how much human blood can an elf possess and still be an elf?"

As TK514 said, there can't be evena  shred of human blood in an Elf. An elfblooded human may inherit character traits from his Elven parents like facial features, hair colour, or eye colour, but he is still wholly human.

[Hellion Rex]

As TK514 said, there can't be evena  shred of human blood in an Elf. An elfblooded human may inherit character traits from his Elven parents like facial features, hair colour, or eye colour, but he is still wholly human.

Feynriel had flat ears, correct? Someone was telling me the other day that he had pointed ears.

[Heimdall]

Feynriel had flat ears, correct? Someone was telling me the other day that he had pointed ears.

His ears were rounded , yes.

[LOLandStuff]

They were slightly pointed, bordering a lot on rounded.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Feynriel had flat ears, correct? Someone was telling me the other day that he had pointed ears.

Spoiler

I'd say they were round. It is more his nose that hints at elven heritage

[Heimdall]

What would you call it? An empire can denote a political organization controlled by a supreme authority (i.e the Divine). Even if you ignore this, the Chantry is more powerful than any single nation in Thedas, and from its installation the Chantry has been all but synonymous with Orlais, itself the most powerful nation in Thedas.

• Orlais  got its name from the sons of Andraste
• The first Orlesian emperor's first act was to make the Chantry the official religion of the Empire. He also created the offices of the Divine. His image is now as prominent in Orlesian chantries as Andraste's.
•   The sun is the symbol of the Chantry and a part of Orlais' symbol as well. In fact, Divine Faustine II was preparing to call the Dragon Age the Sun Age as a celebration of Orlesian glory.
• One of the core principles of the Chantry decrees that the Maker will only return if the Chant is spread to all four corners of the world. This is the Chantry's ultimate goal, and they have Exalted Marches (which only a Divine has the authority to call) which they use both to forcibly convert others, and to annex them into the Orlesian Empire.Orlais is aggressively expansionist, and so is the Chantry. They act as one.
• Each individual grand cleric oversees multiple temples within a division or city, and enjoys the power and influence reserved for their jurisdiction's highest nobility. Only nobles can become chevaliers, who have absolute authority over the common people. Only nobles can own land, and the Divine is their superior.
• The Divine called the Exalted March on the Dales, a March that only Orlais contributed forces to. That same Divine apparently had the authority to order alienages built, not just in Orlais, but in other nations as well. We know of alienages in Fereldan, Kirkwall, and the Tevinter Imperium.

 
So even if you don't call the Chantry an empire, it has all the power of one, and its history is no less built on the blood of others.

The Chantry isn't more powerful than any single nation. Their own forces, the Templars, aren't capable of waging wars all on their own and it's a mistake to equate it with Orlais, even with their close association. The only exalted marches I recall are the Dales, the Black Divine, and the Qunari. The first, if you believe the Chantry version, was a direct response to an attack on Orlais and the high seat of the Chantry itself, it's not strange that it was principally the Orlesian armies, the closest on hand, responded. As for the second, most of Thedas likely saw it as the new rise of the regime Andraste herself had thrown down, I doubt it was solely the charge of heresy that drove the motivation to March. The Qunari were alien invader as if not more intent on imposing their ideology than the Chantry itself. Point being, I can't think of a time when the Chantry called an Exalted March purely for conversion.

A few minor points:
1. Nobles aren't the only ones that can own property in Thedas

2. We don't know how the Alienages came into being, much less that they were all created by Divine decree. I personally remain skeptical that all City Elves today outside Tevinter are descended from those that came out of the Dales.

[Master Warder Z_]

2. We don't know how the Alienages came into being, much less that they were all created by Divine decree. I personally remain skeptical that all City Elves today outside Tevinter are descended from those that came out of the Dales.

 

Actually they were correct at least on this part.

 

The Divine did issue the decree that made the Nations of Thedas open the doors to the elves after the fall of the Dales.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Actually they were correct at least on this part.

 

The Divine did issue the decree that made the Nations of Thedas open the doors to the elves after the fall of the Dales.

That being said, there is however no evidence that ALL Elves moved to the Dales after it was established. Some Elves may have settled in human lands. However after the Fall of the Dales, all Elves, regardless of origin, would probably have been herded into the Alienages.

[Heimdall]

Actually they were correct at least on this part.
 
The Divine did issue the decree that made the Nations of Thedas open the doors to the elves after the fall of the Dales.

Fair enough, I'm still a bit skeptical about the extent to which alienage-like situations for elves didn't exist beforehand.

[A Clever Name]

 

The Chantry isn't more powerful than any single nation. Their own forces, the Templars, aren't capable of waging wars all on their own and it's a mistake to equate it with Orlais, even with their close association. The only exalted marches I recall are the Dales, the Black Divine, and the Qunari. The first, if you believe the Chantry version, was a direct response to an attack on Orlais and the high seat of the Chantry itself, it's not strange that it was principally the Orlesian armies, the closest on hand, responded. As for the second, most of Thedas likely saw it as the new rise of the regime Andraste herself had thrown down, I doubt it was solely the charge of heresy that drove the motivation to March. The Qunari were alien invader as if not more intent on imposing their ideology than the Chantry itself. Point being, I can't think of a time when the Chantry called an Exalted March purely for conversion.

A few minor points:
1. Nobles aren't the only ones that can own property in Thedas

2. We don't know how the Alienages came into being, much less that they were all created by Divine decree. I personally remain skeptical that all City Elves today outside Tevinter are descended from those that came out of the Dales.

Except we do know how they were created - Divine Renata I, following the Exalted March on the Dales, created the Alienages for city elves that submitted to human rule.  The condition was that city elves had to convert to Chantry rule and belief.  From the Codex given if not of the City Elf or Dalish Elf Origins in DA:O - 

 

 

When the holy Exalted March of the Dales resulted in the dissolution of the elven kingdom, leaving a great many elves homeless once again, the Divine Renata I declared that all lands loyal to the Chantry must give the elves refuge within their own walls. Considering the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing, this was a great testament to the Chantry's charity. There was one condition, however--the elves were to lay aside their pagan gods and live under the rule of the Chantry.

Some of the elves refused our goodwill. They banded together to form the wandering Dalish elves, keeping their old elven ways--and their hatred of humans--alive. To this day, Dalish elves still terrorize those of us who stray too close to their camps. Most of the elves, however, saw that it was wisest to live under the protection of humans.

And so we took the elves into our cities and tried to integrate them. We invited them into our own homes and gave them jobs as servants and farmhands. Here, in Denerim, the elves even have their own quarter, governed by an elven keeper. Most have proven to be productive members of society. Still, a small segment of the elven community remains dissatisfied. These troublemakers and malcontents roam the streets causing mayhem, rebelling against authority and making a general nuisance of themselves.

 

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

It's fair to argue that not all elves made the journey to the Dales, which I do agree with.  I doubt every elf would have made the journey to what became Halamshiral.  Arguably there were elves who chose to remain in Tevinter, seeing as we have seen several Tevinter-born elves throughout DA:O and DAII.  That's a likely explanation as to where the elves that didn't participate in the Long Walk remained, as the lore states the Long Walk began in Tevinter and ended in present-day Halamshiral.

 

It is also worthy of note that the Chantry holds a great deal of sway with Thedosian states on the basis that it is the most widely accepted religion and almost wholly integrated its doctrines and dogma into the cultures of the various political actors.  That alone is something you should not ignore - especially considering the Chantry's dogma is directly tied to total conversion of "heretical" peoples and facilitates expansionist attitudes.

[MissMagi]

The Chantry isn't more powerful than any single nation. Their own forces, the Templars, aren't capable of waging wars all on their own and it's a mistake to equate it with Orlais, even with their close association. The only exalted marches I recall are the Dales, the Black Divine, and the Qunari. The first, if you believe the Chantry version, was a direct response to an attack on Orlais and the high seat of the Chantry itself, it's not strange that it was principally the Orlesian armies, the closest on hand, responded. As for the second, most of Thedas likely saw it as the new rise of the regime Andraste herself had thrown down, I doubt it was solely the charge of heresy that drove the motivation to March. The Qunari were alien invader as if not more intent on imposing their ideology than the Chantry itself. Point being, I can't think of a time when the Chantry called an Exalted March purely for conversion.

A few minor points:
1. Nobles aren't the only ones that can own property in Thedas

2. We don't know how the Alienages came into being, much less that they were all created by Divine decree. I personally remain skeptical that all City Elves today outside Tevinter are descended from those that came out of the Dales.

Well, firstly the Chantry's power isn't limited to, or even primarily military power (which up until recently included templars, seekers, the Circle, as well as the Exalted Marches). There is also political power, social power, etc. etc., and the Chantry has this in spades. They are the dominant religion in Thedas. None have impacted life in Thedas more than they have, which is unfortunate because Its teachings and practices are fundamentally flawed, and inevitably cause and reinforce ubiquitous discrimination and intolerance, predominantly against marginalized groups, i.e. elves and mages.

 

I never said that the Exalted Marches were only used to convert others. One of its uses is to expand Orlais' influence, which also serves to expand the Chantry's influence.  

 

The point is that the Chantry's power is Orlais' power and then some. A direct attack on Orlais is a direct attack on the Chantry's seat of power.

 

1. I meant in Orlais. I thought that was clear when I mentioned the chevaliers. Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

 

2. 

The Divine did issue the decree that made the Nations of Thedas open the doors to the elves after the fall of the Dales.

 

 

Yes.