2113 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Let the humans and the elves fight it out. Winner takes it all.

[Icy Magebane]

You'd have to divide the Dales into more than just two parts, Antivan elves don't have much in common with Orlesian elves, elves from Tevinter wouldn't have much in common with elves from Ferelden, etc.

 

And the Dalish, you'd need to give each clan their own little land, otherwise they're going to start fighting amongst themselves for power.

 

It's such a mess you'd be better off giving elves enclaves in their respective homelands, rather than in the Dales.

Like convincing the crowned heads and nobles of Thedas to partition some land of their realm and appoint an elven duke to rule it as an autonomous vassal. (Which, admittedly, is the really hard part.)

That would go a long way to elven acceptance and autonomy than just shoving every elf in Thedas into a single valley and expecting them to work it out.

Um... when the alternatives are being either a slave or a fourth-class citizen with a 5% chance of making it out of the slums, I think that elves from different nations wouldn't be too picky about what accent their next door neighbor has.  Since religion is a more difficult thing for people to reconcile, I figured a half and half split would be fair enough.

 

Also, you seem to be missing the point:  the elves don't benefit from any arrangement in which humans rule over them.

[LobselVith8]

But aren't most elves Andrastian and from the cities?

 

If the Dalish get their kingdom will they force Andrastian city elves to follow their culture?

 

I'm doubtful, as the Dalish don't make it a practice to force anyone to convert to their religion. You're welcome to join the clan voluntarily, and you're welcome to leave of your own accord.

 

The old Elvish culture was lost when their first empire fell to the Tevinter; the Dalish now are just clannish, xenophobic nomads with a small gene pool, the new Elvish culture is the city elves.

 

The clans are wary of outsiders in the regions neighboring the Andrastian kingdoms, where outsiders are a threat to them. Gaider said there's a semi-permanent settlment of Dalish living on the outskirts of Llomerryn, a city with humans who follow the Natural Order; it was said the two get along peacefully, with humans encouraged to trade with the elves.

 

And really, just better treatment in their human homelands would probably be better than an independent kingdom, like for instance, what would an elf from Antiva have in common with an elf from a Dalish clan versus what he would have in common with an Antivan human?

 

Considering how the status quo has persisted for almost a thousand years throughout most of the human kingdoms, I'd consider an elven homeland to be a much more viable option than hoping that humans stop being racist to the elves.

[drake heath]

I'm doubtful, as the Dalish don't make it a practice to force anyone to convert to their religion. You're welcome to join the clan voluntarily, and you're welcome to leave of your own accord.

 

 

The clans are wary of outsiders in the regions neighboring the Andrastian kingdoms, where outsiders are a threat to them. Gaider said there's a semi-permanent settlment of Dalish living on the outskirts of Llomerryn, a city with humans who follow the Natural Order; it was said the two get along peacefully, with humans encouraged to trade with the elves.

 

 

Considering how the status quo has persisted for almost a thousand years throughout most of the human kingdoms, I'd consider an elven homeland to be a much more viable option than hoping that humans stop being racist to the elves.

Hm, I guess you're right.

 

I just like the idea of humans and elves learning to work together without having to resort to the repatriation (or whatever the right word is) of all the elves to the Dales.

[LobselVith8]

I just like the idea of humans and elves learning to work together without having to resort to repatriation of all the elves.

 

I don't think that's implausible if the elves were to get their own kingdom; an independent Dales and Ferelden could sign a treaty due to their concern over Orlais, an empire that has occupied both territories in the past.

[Icy Magebane]

Hm, I guess you're right.

 

I just like the idea of humans and elves learning to work together without having to resort to the repatriation (or whatever the right word is) of all the elves to the Dales.

For what it's worth, this is an idea I can get behind... I just feel it's not worth the risk of waiting any longer to see if it's possible.  IMO, it's better to get into a position where you don't need to worry about being killed in a random, arbitrary district purge, and then work on things like economic and cultural exchange with other races.

[MisterJB]

Nations don't usually like it when states violently carve themselves right outside one's borders. Especially when they are the only land connection to the rest of the world.

[Jazzpha]

The crux of the problem seems to be that the situation for City Elves is so bad that only radical change will even come close to balancing the scales.

 

Ideally, I agree with Drake that it would be wonderful if humans and elves could come together and humans could stop being horrible to the elves, without the need of anything drastic. That would be great.

 

Practically, though, it looks like the only way to really affect any sort of lasting change is with drastic action. When Andraste did it and rose up against the Tevinter Imperium, the whole world thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. Why can't the Elves have their day of righteous indignation, I wonder. Turnabout is totally fair play.

[Icy Magebane]

Nations don't usually like it when states violently carve themselves right outside one's borders. Especially when they are the only land connection to the rest of the world.

True, but assuming the elves are successful in their conquest, they would need to be on good terms with at least one of their neighbors... obviously they'd need to take steps to ingratiate themselves to the Fereldens, and they do share a common enemy in Orlais... plus, the Fereldens directly benefit from not having to worry about Orlesians right on their borders anymore. 

[LobselVith8]

Nations don't usually like it when states violently carve themselves right outside one's borders. Especially when they are the only land connection to the rest of the world.

 

If an independent Dales is possible within the narrative of Inquisition, I suppose the Inquisitor can deal with the warring parties of Orlais fighting over the throne when the time comes.

[drake heath]

Also I think Ferelden's primary trade route is through the Waking Sea.

 

With the Dales a merchant has to go around or through a mountain range, traverse a long stretch of wilderness and to do what? Trade with Orlesians? What red blooded Ferelden in their right mind would go through all that for Orlesian junk?

 

The Waking Sea is just a short boat ride and you get to trade with the Free Marchers, or go up the coast to trade with Antivans or the Rivaini; who are much better to deal with than Orlesians.

[LobselVith8]

Also I think Ferelden's primary trade route is through the Waking Sea.

 

With the Dales a merchant has to go around or through a mountain range, traverse a long stretch of wilderness and to do what? Trade with Orlesians? What red blooded Ferelden in their right mind would go through all that for Orlesian junk?

 

The Waking Sea is just a short boat ride and you get to trade with the Free Marchers, or go around the coast to trade with Antivans; who are much better to deal with than Orlesians.

 

Ferleden and Orlais also seem to share territory through the Frostback Mountains that leads to the gates of Orzammar, the source of lyrium; more or less the Spice of Thedas. Given that the Chantry has been severely weakened, it may not be in a position to enforce it's monopoly over the lyrium trade, and the Inquisition would require the substance for either the templars or mages who became part of the organization, after the end of the Mage-Templar War. With the Inquisition, it can be advantageous for all parties involved.

[SmilesJA]

Yes the Elves need a place where they can proudly call home.

[Tevinter Rose]

Not at all. I have little doubt it wouldn't be easy, and that some people would die to dislodge the Orlesians from controlling the Dales, but I think the benefits outweigh the cost. Rape, killing elves as part of the chevalier initiation, mass murder, laws that criminalize killing a human in defense of an elf - it's an escape from these horrors that makes the prospect of an elven nation beneficial. At least, to people like me who think the elves deserve to be masters of their own destiny, where they aren't forced into servitude to humanity like they have been for most of a millennia.

 

 

There's quite a sufficient amount of death as a result of the status quo that's already in place. Men, women, children - dead as a result of the institutionalized racism that's pervasive across the Andrastian kingdoms. Thousands were recently killed in Halamshiral alone. Putting an end to their plight is all the justification I need for pursuing a path that gives all the elves a sanctuary from this, where they can finally build a future for themselves.

 

 

That's primarily where you and I differ, because I don't think an elven homeland would make things worse - I think leaving the elves at the mercy of humans is going to make things worse. I think giving them a place where they can rule themselves can allow them to have the kind of life that neither the Andrastian nor Dalish elves could ever have under human rule. I don't pretend it would be some idyllic paradise, but I do know that century after century of human rule has offered nothing but the pervasive persistence of the status quo.

 

In fact, we have scholars in Orlais prepared to write papers about how elves are basically animals. That's completely horrific to me, and the notion of leaving the elves at the mercy of humans when there's another alternative for them is simply unacceptable to me.

 

 

I have little doubt blood would be shed if an elven rebellion were to dislodge Orlesian control over the Dales, but I also know that it could provide a much better future than the one they would have living in dilapidated ghettos in human cities.

 

 

This is where you and I continue to disagree, because I don't think the prospect of an elven homeland is stupid; I think it's a viable opportunity for the elves to have a place where they can what they never could under human rule.

 

Well written and I agree. I think that the elves pretty much have no other choice but to persue a home or face eventual extinction. I don't think they have the luxury at the moment to devote themselves campaigning for equal rights, it would probably take centuries and during that time even more of their culture and history would be lost. I think it would have been possible for equal rights if the city elves were in a better position and actually had some sort of loosely organized government in the alienages. 

[Iakus]

A nomadic lifestyle is a necessity when their religion is criminalized and their culture is outlawed by the Chantry. While the clans certainly vary and stay separate as a matter of survival, they all gather for the Arlathvenn; it's not as though they are irrevocably separated.

 

 

You seem to be conflating the attitude of some Dalish with all of them. Some city elves don't consider the elves who try to live outside the Alienage as elves, either.

 

 

The Dalish have no problem welcoming elves into their clans who want to join them, like Lanaya, Pol, or the unnamed elven Circle mage who joined Ariane's clan, and they have rescued elves they have come across, like Aneirin. I don't see why you think the Dalish would turn away city elves when one of their primary historians, and their hahren, talk about the Dalish and the city elves living together in an independent elven kingdom.

And TME explained that all that wandering has caused divergence among the clans.  They are growing apart.  One meeting of the clans every decade isn't holding them together.  They are each growing and changing, becoming less homogeneous.

 

I've yet to seean instance where a city elf considered a Dalish to be not a true elf.  Just the opposite in fact, Dalish seem to revere them, almost.  The reverse, however, is not true.  Lanaya may have been Zathrien's First, but she apparently had to work very hard to gain acceptance into the clan.  And my Tabris Warden was still treated with suspicion.  And this was supposed to be one of the more accepting clans.

 

Again, The Masked Empire told us that Dalish do sometimes take in other elves, but mainly when they feel they need fresh blood in the clan.  Not out of charity or solidarity.  They are, in fact, pretty xenophobic.  Not without cause, of course.

[Xilizhra]

I've yet to seean instance where a city elf considered a Dalish to be not a true elf.  Just the opposite in fact, Dalish seem to revere them, almost.  The reverse, however, is not true.  Lanaya may have been Zathrien's First, but she apparently had to work very hard to gain acceptance into the clan.  And my Tabris Warden was still treated with suspicion.  And this was supposed to be one of the more accepting clans.

The ones in Denerim are no friendlier to Dalish (or elf mages) than they are to humans, so I'm fairly sure we've found parity between elf groups' treatment of each other in Origins. And Lanaya didn't have to work at all to be accepted into the clan, that was automatic; the hard part was becoming First, without any of the native knowledge of Dalish history or magic that those like Merrill would have grown up with.

[Undead Han]

It depends on how they go about it. If it is a boon for the role in aiding the Inquisition? Sure. If it is by rebellion? I'd have the Inquisitor help crush it.

[Xilizhra]

It depends on how they go about it. If it is a boon for the role in aiding the Inquisition? Sure. If it is by rebellion? I'd have the Inquisitor help crush it.

What if Orlais struck the first blow against the elves?

[MisterJB]

What if Orlais struck the first blow against the elves?

In order for a blow to be struck, there needs to be an organized elven body existing apart from Orlais.

Are those elves who attack that human in the alienage stricking a blow against Ferelden? or just being thugs?

[Killdren88]

Well...they were suppose to have one...You know...when Andraste freed the Elves from Slavery and allowed them a homeland of their own only to have her followers turn right around and invade the Dales making them abandon their Gods and Traditions.....

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well...they were suppose to have one...You know...when Andraste freed the Elves from Slavery and allowed them a homeland of their own only to have her followers turn right around and invade the Dales making them abandon their Gods and Traditions.....

Well, maybe the paranoid leaders of the Dales shouldn't have cut a swath of death and destruction through Orlais because the Chantry was sending Templar bodyguards for their missionaries who were being religiously censored. 

[Killdren88]

Well, maybe the paranoid leaders of the Dales shouldn't have cut a swath of death and destruction through Orlais because the Chantry was sending Templar bodyguards for their missionaries who were being religiously censored. 

 

As was their right. Sure they were Grateful for Andraste freeing them, doesn't mean they have to roll over.

[Daerog]

Any quick solution is likely going to lead to war, and no way will the elves win unless they have allies, which is unlikely if it is quick.

 

I can't really say much about the city elves, as their opinions seem as diverse as there are nations, with some considering themselves loyal to their nation first.

 

For the Dalish, they really should consider getting friendly reputations with local rulers. Either acting as security on trade routes during this crisis, mercenaries to combat invaders (like the mages or Templars), and have more trading done with villages. The pen and paper rpg mentions a village having Dalish come near and start a kind of festival, more Dalish should do this after setting up a dialogue with local mayors, good for reputation and resources.

 

Isolation obviously doesn't seem to work for them, they need dialogue and trade.

 

Maybe create positive relations with Nevarra, work as scouts and mercenaries, gain more resources to share with the clans and probably gain influence with Nevarra. Trade with the Anderfels and the Free Marches. Work for humans here and there, then use what is gained to strengthen the clans to be able to hold onto land.

 

That, or create dialogue with Fereldan and just take over land from the Chasind and/or Avvars.

 

Just throwing out thoughts.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As was their right. Sure they were Grateful for Andraste freeing them, doesn't mean they have to roll over.

The least they can do for the people who follow the religion of the woman who freed them from enslavement is to let their missionaries wander around and talk. They don't have to listen if they don't want, but kicking them out and who knows what else to the point the Templars have to serve as bodyguards is messed up. 

[Daerog]

As was their right. Sure they were Grateful for Andraste freeing them, doesn't mean they have to roll over.

 

The Chantry didn't do anything until its HQ was under threat. If the elves just kept to the south and didn't go near the capital, or better yet send messages to the Chantry assuring them that the Chantries and Clerics would not be harmed, they probably wouldn't have faced an Exalted March.

 

Yes, Templars were sent, but that was it at first, that didn't start the war that would lose them the Dales.