2113 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

Felassan comments on the immortality of the Arlathan elves, so there might be some truth to the elven lore.

 

That's stretching an interpretation of what he said.  He said SOME elves achieved a sleeping state where they could sustain themselves with the Fade alone, and that you could tell if a comatose elf had done do due to a particular scent.  The keys being that only some elves ever manged it (not all, not many) and that they had to be comatose in order to do so.

 

Hardly a ringing endorsement of the current Dalish myth that everyone was immortal and life was grand and people just walked around being immortal all day while going to the grocery or introducing themselves to a new acquaintance for ten years of 'hello'.

 

I suppose if you consider a magical suspended animation 'immortality', then the Arlathan elves got pretty close.  Though not so close that they could do anything to prevent having their throats slit while they were laying there.

 

Felassan's main views about the Dalish pretty much run to the idea that they have so over romanticized the ancient elves that their myths have little to no relation with the culure from which they were supposedly derived.

[Reznore57]

Uthenera is the endless dream, the state that those elves who were tired of living entered into instead of death.

 

Thing is I don't think the ancient elves were born immortal , I think they found a way to not die using the fade.

And I think only dreamers were able to achieve this.

[Hellion Rex]

That's stretching an interpretation of what he said.  He said SOME elves achieved a sleeping state where they could sustain themselves with the Fade alone, and that you could tell if a comatose elf had done do due to a particular scent.  The keys being that only some elves ever manged it (not all, not many) and that they had to be comatose in order to do so.

 

Hardly a ringing endorsement of the current Dalish myth that everyone was immortal and life was grand and people just walked around being immortal all day while going to the grocery or introducing themselves to a new acquaintance for ten years of 'hello'.

 

I suppose if you consider a magical suspended animation 'immortality', then the Arlathan elves got pretty close.  Though not so close that they could do anything to prevent having their throats slit while they were laying there.

 

Felassan's main views about the Dalish pretty much run to the idea that they have so over romanticized the ancient elves that their myths have little to no relation with the culure from which they were supposedly derived.

On top of that, it was more of Tolkien's immortality - the elves could be killed via physical means, but were immune to the ravages of time.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

On top of that, it was more of Tolkien's immortality - the elves could be killed via physical means, but were immune to the ravages of time.

Yeah, they weren't really immortal but ageless, like the Darkspawn. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah, they weren't really immortal but ageless, like the Darkspawn. 

 

I'd suspect the Darkspawn literally can be running around forever if they aren't killed considering back in DAO you run into a Darkspawn down in the deep roads that was still alive after a skirmish with the Legion of the dead that took place before the Qunari Wars.

 

Plus Cory.

[LobselVith8]

That's stretching an interpretation of what he said.  He said SOME elves achieved a sleeping state where they could sustain themselves with the Fade alone, and that you could tell if a comatose elf had done do due to a particular scent.  The keys being that only some elves ever manged it (not all, not many) and that they had to be comatose in order to do so.

 

Hardly a ringing endorsement of the current Dalish myth that everyone was immortal and life was grand and people just walked around being immortal all day while going to the grocery or introducing themselves to a new acquaintance for ten years of 'hello'.

 

I suppose if you consider a magical suspended animation 'immortality', then the Arlathan elves got pretty close.  Though not so close that they could do anything to prevent having their throats slit while they were laying there.

 

Felassan's main views about the Dalish pretty much run to the idea that they have so over romanticized the ancient elves that their myths have little to no relation with the culure from which they were supposedly derived.

 

Felassan mentions their immortality; it's not an interpretation when he uses the word explicitly. Nothing is being stretched. So why is it that it's okay to take Felassan at his word when he says that Arlathan is like Orlais, but it isn't okay when he mentions the immortality of the Arlathan elves?

[Xilizhra]

Felassan's main views about the Dalish pretty much run to the idea that they have so over romanticized the ancient elves that their myths have little to no relation with the culure from which they were supposedly derived.

Which is odd, because only the Dalish stories are thoroughly crapped upon so.

[A Clever Name]

 

Spoiler

It facilitates expansionist attitudes about as much as the Dalish culture facilitates genocide. Possible in theory, advocated by some extremists, absent in practiced policy. It's about as inherent as, oh, the American political motif of spreading freedom and democracy across the world equating world conquest.

 

Even the point about the total conversion of 'heretical' peoples is overstating it. The Chantry doesn't maintain a policy of mandating conversion and expanding the Chant by conquest of nonbelievers for the purpose of conversion itself- as the Dev's have mentioned before, they've broadly taken the stance that the True Religion will ultimately come on top on its own, without needing to be forced at sword point. The only mass forced-conversion in the history of the setting directed by the Chantry itself was in the creation of the Alienages, and even that comes with the caveat of it being uncleare if the elves were allowed to refuse and join the Dalish exodus. One could argue that the Exalted Marches against Tevinter were an attempt, but it would be ignoring that the religious schism corresponded with the return of the Tevinter mageocracy and its abuses of magic and slavery- as much a political struggle as a religious one.

 

As it is, there's precious little to support the idea that the Chantry has, say, sent its Templars and might to crush and convert nonbelievers in any systemic or organized fashion. It hasn't happened with the Dwarves, who are already dependent on the surface for trade and losing a war with the Darkspawn, it hasn't happened with the Dalish (who seem to be targeted more because of their mages than religion, and even then only when they remain near settlemetns for long periods), it wasn't happening with the Ferelden Barbarians in the South, it wasn't happening in Rivain, and it wasn't even being discussed towards the Qunari and their sympathizers/converts in Kirkwall. Heck the Andrastian powers outright let their city elves leave the city and join the Dalish, despite the expected conversion to heathen ways.

 

The Chantry's dogma is interested in the total conversion of the 'heathens', but it isn't and hasn't been cast in terms of urgency and haste justifying and necessitating conversion by the sword. The few who have believed in the urgency of eternity are... pretty much Petrice, who the game pretty much beat you over the head with the fact that hers was a marginalized and deviant viewpoint.

 

 

 

None of which is to say that religious intolerance doesn't occur- it's just not directed or encouraged by the Chantry dogma. It happens at the national or even local level. It doesn't need direction and sanction from the Chantry to happen. The Chantry's stance on heretics in the Dragon Age has been to send missionaries if possible, allow refusal by individuals who don't wish to be part of the faith, and defend the faithful from attack.

...That was not what I intended to be taken away from my argument.

 

I was simply stating that the importance of the Chantry's influence should not be ignored, as its dogma can be interpreted and manipulated to support the more antagonistic attitudes of important political players within the governments of Thedosian states.  You could even use Sister Petrice, mad as she was, as an example of what its dogma can become in the hands of the more perverse members of its faith.  Anything can be twisted to someone's goals and motives, and I don't doubt that with how widespread the Chantry's beliefs are that people use them as justification for anything.  That's what I get for trying to make a statement on two hours of sleep!    You never consider how things can be interpreted until after you say them.

 

Sorry for such a short reply.  You put so much into yours that I feel a little bit ashamed at giving you such a teensy response.

 

Yeah, they weren't really immortal but ageless, like the Darkspawn. 

I like this interpretation.  I had always thought the tales of Uthenera were something of a poetic way to describe death in the times of Arlathan that the Dalish interpreted as true.  It's an interesting concept to play around with, at the very least!  Do we have any info about what makes the Darkspawn essentially ageless?

[LOLandStuff]

Felassan mentions their immortality; it's not an interpretation when he uses the word explicitly. Nothing is being stretched. So why is it that it's okay to take Felassan at his word when he says that Arlathan is like Orlais, but it isn't okay when he mentions the immortality of the Arlathan elves?

 

 

Because usually, when something in the world of DA sounds too good, it has a demon involved in it.

[Reznore57]

 

 

I like this interpretation.  I had always thought the tales of Uthenera were something of a poetic way to describe death in the times of Arlathan that the Dalish interpreted as true.  It's an interesting concept to play around with, at the very least!  Do we have any info about what makes the Darkspawn essentially ageless?

 

It's probably the taint.

[Dean_the_Young]

You mean like how the Baroness sacrificed children to retain her youth? 

 

'Like' in the sense that it was a magic ritual by a mage for a mage, not in the 'their immortality is powered by the blood of babies.' Immortality could easily have been an elite-only thing- same with the endless sleep.

 

That said, so far all the promising avenues towards life extension have been via blood magic. Tevinter, Warden, and even Dalish mages have been able to bolster life forces and extend their life spans unnaturally via it. It wouldn't be out of place if Arlathan did the same via the same, nor would it be out of place if it had been a less than equal bearing of costs in a less than equal political environment.

 

It wouldn't explain how human contact ruined it, but then nothing about the human influence makes sense as a cause. Humans may not even have been the cause, but rather a correlation. The difference between elves and humans seems to be magical in nature, given Gaider's comments on human-elf mixing.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Humans were an offshoot from the elves, a sort of 'losing magic' trait that got progressively more common. That could tie into the primevial history about the pre-Veil, when everyone may or may not have been magical and magic. If there was ever a time all the elves had magic, I'd wager it was then, and lost with the Veil.

 

It could have been something like

 

Pre-Veil: Dragons Rule the Sky, Magic Runs Free, Gods Run Ramptant, Etc.  Because of all the magic running everywhere, elves are formed from the magic infusing everyone. Magial immortality is at its peak.

 

The Veil forms. Possibly naturally, possibly deliberatly to contain something in the Fade. With the separation from the Fade, only the people lucky enough to have a way through are able to keep using magic: these are the first (elven) mages, who go on to rule the mageocracy of Arlathan. Natural/old magics begin to fade: the immortality magics (whatever they are) begin weakening.

 

The first humans start to appear in distant, uncivilized reaches. Rather than a new species, they could be in fact elves who lost the magical infusion in their being. As a consequence of their lack of magic, other elves who breed with them also have their children lacking magic.

 

Humans arrive around the time the magics begin to fade. Correlation is considered causation, even though the Veil itself is to blame for both. Humans are tribals, but the decline of the original magics leads to the decline of Arlathan.

 

 

Begin recorded history with the Tevinter Imperium rising as a power.

[Master Warder Z_]

Because usually, when something in the world of DA sounds too good, it has a demon involved in it.

 

I like that!

 

That should totally be a saying!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I like this interpretation.  I had always thought the tales of Uthenera were something of a poetic way to describe death in the times of Arlathan that the Dalish interpreted as true.  It's an interesting concept to play around with, at the very least!  Do we have any info about what makes the Darkspawn essentially ageless?

 

Thanks.

 

And it is the Taint if I recall correctly. The Taint sustains them and heals their injuries, even replacing limbs. So basically the Taint gives them a weaker version of Wolverine's regenerative powers, and thus them not dying of old age. 

[Hellion Rex]

Yup, Dean wins. I bow down to his logic.

[Hellion Rex]

 

 The Taint sustains them and heals their injuries, even replacing limbs.

Huh?

[Master Warder Z_]

'Like' in the sense that it was a magic ritual by a mage for a mage, not in the 'their immortality is powered by the blood of babies.' Immortality could easily have been an elite-only thing- same with the endless sleep.

 

That said, so far all the promising avenues towards life extension have been via blood magic. Tevinter, Warden, and even Dalish mages have been able to bolster life forces and extend their life spans unnaturally via it. It wouldn't be out of place if Arlathan did the same via the same, nor would it be out of place if it had been a less than equal bearing of costs in a less than equal political environment.

 

It wouldn't explain how human contact ruined it, but then nothing about the human influence makes sense as a cause. Humans may not even have been the cause, but rather a correlation. The difference between elves and humans seems to be magical in nature, given Gaider's comments on human-elf mixing.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Humans were an offshoot from the elves, a sort of 'losing magic' trait that got progressively more common. That could tie into the primevial history about the pre-Veil, when everyone may or may not have been magical and magic. If there was ever a time all the elves had magic, I'd wager it was then, and lost with the Veil.

 

It could have been something like

 

Pre-Veil: Dragons Rule the Sky, Magic Runs Free, Gods Run Ramptant, Etc.  Because of all the magic running everywhere, elves are formed from the magic infusing everyone. Magial immortality is at its peak.

 

The Veil forms. Possibly naturally, possibly deliberatly to contain something in the Fade. With the separation from the Fade, only the people lucky enough to have a way through are able to keep using magic: these are the first (elven) mages, who go on to rule the mageocracy of Arlathan. Natural/old magics begin to fade: the immortality magics (whatever they are) begin weakening.

 

The first humans start to appear in distant, uncivilized reaches. Rather than a new species, they could be in fact elves who lost the magical infusion in their being. As a consequence of their lack of magic, other elves who breed with them also have their children lacking magic.

 

Humans arrive around the time the magics begin to fade. Correlation is considered causation, even though the Veil itself is to blame for both. Humans are tribals, but the decline of the original magics leads to the decline of Arlathan.

 

 

Begin recorded history with the Tevinter Imperium rising as a power.

 

That seems like it could actually be plausible.

 

Kudo's dean, you made me consider something in comparison to the sparse bit of this time period we know from the canon.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Huh?

From their wiki page:

 

The darkspawn do not need to eat as the taint sustains them, however they can eat for reasons other than dietary.^[2][3] Furthermore, the taint provides quick healing from wounds which also explains the absence of healing skills among the darkspawn.^[4] This healing even allows the re-creation of lost body parts after some time.^[5]

[Steelcan]

On top of that, it was more of Tolkien's immortality - the elves could be killed via physical means, but were immune to the ravages of time.

which they technically are not, as the ages wear on and the light of the Valar continues to dwindle, elves will gradually fade completely from the world becoming more spirits than physical beings until the Dagor Dagoth (I think that's how its spelled)

 

if anything the elves are very attuned to the ravages of time, the best description would be that their physical forms do not suffer from aging like humans

 

/Tolkien nerd rant over

[Dean_the_Young]

Felassan mentions their immortality; it's not an interpretation when he uses the word explicitly. Nothing is being stretched. So why is it that it's okay to take Felassan at his word when he says that Arlathan is like Orlais, but it isn't okay when he mentions the immortality of the Arlathan elves?

 

Possibly because you're twisting the context of his words into an agreement with the Dalish that they aren't. Felassan doesn't say the Dalish lore is correct: Felassan's description of the immortality practices are themselves a walk back and contrary to claims made by the Dalish.

 

Which most people would agree with for the same reasons they find his claims of Arlathan being similar to Orlais credible: the Dalish model of history is prone to exageration and over-simplification as it is, and things that seem too good to be true in the Dragon Age setting reliably are.

[Hellion Rex]

which they technically are not, as the ages wear on and the light of the Valar continues to dwindle, elves will gradually fade completely from the world becoming more spirits than physical beings until the Dagor Dagoth (I think that's how its spelled)

 

if anything the elves are very attuned to the ravages of time, the best description would be that their physical forms do not suffer from aging like humans

 

/Tolkien nerd rant over

Meh, I wasn't sure how to better compare the life span of Arlathan elves, but you're right.

[LobselVith8]

Possibly because you're twisting the context of his words into an agreement with the Dalish that they aren't. Felassan doesn't say the Dalish lore is correct: Felassan's description of the immortality practices are themselves a walk back and contrary to claims made by the Dalish.

 

Nothing is being twisted when Felassan mentions their immortality. I'm seeing a double standard of people more than willing to cite Felassan's words as absolute fact when he says something negative about the elves, but the same people refuse to entertain the possibility that elven lore could be right when he explicitly referenced immortality for Arlathan. It seems like Felassan can only be trusted when he says something derogatory about the elves, and distrusted when he says something that could mean the Dalish are correct about their elven lore.

 

Which most people would agree with for the same reasons they find his claims of Arlathan being similar to Orlais credible: the Dalish model of history is prone to exageration and over-simplification as it is, and things that seem too good to be true in the Dragon Age setting reliably are.

 

I'm not addressing "most people", I'm addressing the people who cherrypick Felassan's words as fact in one circumstance, and refute it in another.

[Steelcan]

Meh, I wasn't sure how to better compare the life span of Arlathan elves, but you're right.

The effects of the Ring, life is not gained, merely stretched

[Hellion Rex]

The effects of the Ring, life is not gained, merely stretched

Fair enough, smartass.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nothing is being twisted when Felassan mentions their immortality. I'm seeing a double standard of people more than willing to cite Felassan's words as absolute fact when he says something negative about the elves, but the same people refuse to entertain the possibility that elven lore could be right when he explicitly referenced immortality for Arlathan. It seems like Felassan can only be trusted when he says something derogatory about the elves, and distrusted when he says something that could mean the Dalish are correct about their elven lore.

 

Felassan mentioning their immortality does not mean Felassan describes their immortality in the same way as the Dalish have claimed. If Felassan does not describe ancient elven immortality in the same way as the Dalish do, then there is no double standard in believing Felassan's claims that the myth that Arlathan was exagerated and not believing the Dalish lore on immortality. There would only be a double standard if people held Felassan's views as indisputable on one topic but dismissed them in the other. Felassan's views, let us emphasize: not the dalish legends.

 

Felassan mentioning immortality no more vindicates the Dalish claims any more than Felassan mentioning Arlathan vindicates those Dalish claims. Especially when Felassan's theme is skepticism and caveats on all the claims, not just some of them.

 

 

 

I'm not addressing "most people", I'm addressing the people who cherrypick Felassa's words as fact in one circumstance, and refute it in another.

 

Perhaps you should identify them. By name, and context of their cherry picking. Who has refuted Felassan's description of the limited version of the Dalish myth?

[LobselVith8]

Felassan mentioning their immortality does not mean Felassan describes their immortality in the same way as the Dalish have claimed. If Felassan does not describe ancient elven immortality in the same way as the Dalish do, then there is no double standard in believing Felassan's claims that the myth that Arlathan was exagerated and not believing the Dalish lore on immortality. There would only be a double standard if people held Felassan's views as indisputable on one topic but dismissed them in the other. Felassan's views, let us emphasize: not the dalish legends.

 

This conversation is getting a bit circular at this point. Felassan makes reference to the immortality of the ancient elves. The point is that it could mean that there's some truth to elven lore. However, it's outright dismissed by some people, despite the fact that the same people cite Felassan's comparison of Arlathan to Orlais as truth.

 

Felassan mentioning immortality no more vindicates the Dalish claims any more than Felassan mentioning Arlathan vindicates those Dalish claims. Especially when Felassan's theme is skepticism and caveats on all the claims, not just some of them.

 

Let me make this simple: it's a double standard of some people accepting Felassan's word as long as he denigrates the elves, but not when he says something that could mean that there's truth to elven lore. That's the issue I have.