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Felassan mentions their immortality; it's not an interpretation when he uses the word explicitly. Nothing is being stretched. So why is it that it's okay to take Felassan at his word when he says that Arlathan is like Orlais, but it isn't okay when he mentions the immortality of the Arlathan elves?
What were his exact words
I think the thread title should now just change to "The Elf Thread" or something, as this is just about the elves in general now.
The elves should team up with the ghast. Just for fun.
This conversation is getting a bit circular at this point. Felassan makes reference to the immortality of the ancient elves. The point is that it could mean that there's some truth to elven lore. However, it's outright dismissed by some people, despite the fact that the same people cite Felassan's comparison of Arlathan to Orlais as truth.
Let me make this simple: it's a double standard of some people accepting Felassan's word as long as he denigrates the elves, but not when he says something that could mean that there's truth to elven lore. That's the issue I have.
No, we're all quite capable of taking in and using everything he said, we just also have less rosey interpretations of what he meant.
I think the thread title should now just change to "The Elf Thread" or something, as this is just about the elves in general now.
There probably should be a general elf thread, just so we don't have to worry about getting off-topic and getting the thread locked as a result..
I think the thread title should now just change to "The Elf Thread" or something, as this is just about the elves in general now.
The elves should team up with the ghast. Just for fun.
Perhaps this is getting too off-topic. I do apologize. When it was suggested earlier that perhaps the Dalish could try to find a safe location to head to in order to be safe from humanity, I suggested that perhaps the Donarks could work. It's pretty far off - beyond the Anderfels. It may not be populated, and it would provide a good distance for the elves from the warring races of Thedas in order to build their own society.
It facilitates expansionist attitudes about as much as the Dalish culture facilitates genocide. Possible in theory, advocated by some extremists, absent in practiced policy. It's about as inherent as, oh, the American political motif of spreading freedom and democracy across the world equating world conquest.
Even the point about the total conversion of 'heretical' peoples is overstating it. The Chantry doesn't maintain a policy of mandating conversion and expanding the Chant by conquest of nonbelievers for the purpose of conversion itself- as the Dev's have mentioned before, they've broadly taken the stance that the True Religion will ultimately come on top on its own, without needing to be forced at sword point. The only mass forced-conversion in the history of the setting directed by the Chantry itself was in the creation of the Alienages, and even that comes with the caveat of it being uncleare if the elves were allowed to refuse and join the Dalish exodus. One could argue that the Exalted Marches against Tevinter were an attempt, but it would be ignoring that the religious schism corresponded with the return of the Tevinter mageocracy and its abuses of magic and slavery- as much a political struggle as a religious one.
I’ll have to reply to this in parts.
The Chantry doesn't need to maintain a policy to root out heretics. No group has impacted life in Thedas more than they have. The Chantry is the dominant religious organization in the known world, and its influence prevails across most of the kingdoms therein. There is propaganda inherent within their theology that hinders diversity, and propagates racism, xenophobia, and the marginalization of people who do not share the same beliefs as them, and elves in particular. Even humans who do not believe in the Maker pay it lip service, for fear of persecution (and Leliana was ostracized for having a different interpretation of the Chant, despite her fervent belief in the Maker). Religious monopoly can do more harm than any military force.
The Chantry teaches that non-humans are further from the Maker. Because being at the Maker’s side is associated with virtuousness (and the opposite with sinfulness), this only reinforces the mistreatment of elves.
And as I mentioned before, it was on the authority of a Divine that the alienages were instituted, which segregates the elves, encouraging their isolation and substandard status. That same Divine ordered that that all Chantry art depicting elves be destroyed, with only a single statue of Shartan being spared, albeit with his ears docked, which seems to be the Thedosian equivalent of lightening skin tones. Furthermore, Shartan’s writings have been suppressed, and any verses in the Chant that mention him have been removed.
The power the Chantry holds over the general population’s education becomes evident when you consider that Shartan’s existence, or at least his participation and aid in Andraste’s rebellion, is not common knowledge. Most people in Thedas cannot read. Their illiteracy makes it easier to feed them misinformation, and to use that misinformation to influence their views.
Outside of the nobility, literacy is highest in the Chantry and its (former) affiliations- the Circle of Magi, the Templars and the Seekers. Even nobles are given a religious education alongside their academic one- the Human Noble warden and King Cailan, for example. The pen is mightier than the sword. Everyone from royals to poor commoners is indoctrinated by the Chantry through its education system, and the elves (and mages) suffer for it.
“Submit and become second-class citizens” or “be forced into the fringes of society” is not what I would call a choice, or at least, not a fair one, not when you’re forced between two unsavory choices (three if you count death). That is, if they were actually given it- officially. It’s still being forced. I’d say it’s more an illusion of choice than anything.
The idea that the Exalted Marches against the Imperium were as much a political struggle as a religious one is exactly the problem. The Chantry’s powerful political stake when paired with its religious monopoly is what makes them so dangerous for the elves, mages, and anyone who does not share their beliefs.
I understand where you’re coming from, but this is my take on it.
I'm wondering how the elves got it in their heads they were immortal in the first place.
"Remember when we were immortal?"
"Lol, nope."
"Neither do I."
"I bet it's something else those damn shem took from us."
"It must've been so long ago, we must've forgotten."
"Damn shem."
I'm wondering how the elves got it in their heads they were immortal in the first place.
"Remember when we were immortal?"
"Lol, nope."
"Neither do I."
"I bet it's something else those damn shem took from us."
"It must've been so long ago, we must've forgotten."
"Damn shem."
Culture, history and faith can be preserved through generations. There's this thing called written word and oral tradition.
Culture, history and faith can be preserved through generations. There's this thing called written word and oral tradition.
So, what happened to the part where they enslaved each other?
Those are the Dalish Dissonant Verses lolSo, what happened to the part where they enslaved each other?
Wow 52 pages and nobody has nuked the thread.
...I'm impressed.
Culture, history and faith can be preserved through generations. There's this thing called written word and oral tradition.
yes. myths can perpetuate for quite a while that way
Those are the Dalish Dissonant Verses lol
It must've been something like this:
Some elves befriended humans, but it was a big no-no. Soon, they realized the errors of their ways since humans are jerks, and wanted back in the elven community, but they had to prove themselves worthy. So they went about scrubbing the floors, dusting the shelves and washing windows. Then, they were accepted back with open arms and everyone was happy...aside from humans.
Perhaps this is getting too off-topic. I do apologize. When it was suggested earlier that perhaps the Dalish could try to find a safe location to head to in order to be safe from humanity, I suggested that perhaps the Donarks could work. It's pretty far off - beyond the Anderfels. It may not be populated, and it would provide a good distance for the elves from the warring races of Thedas in order to build their own society.
I didn't even realize there was unsettled land out there... if that's the case, sending scouts (a lot of them, since this seems like a dangerous longshot) sounds like the best plan. If there's nobody out there and the wildlife isn't too tough to deal with, then the elves should try to settle the area. Staying in the slums and woodlands of the human kingdoms is too dangerous.
I don't see why they need one. Just plop down a few houses in the middle of nowhere and BAM. Home. I know I'd be more than happy with that 
They already know how to live off the land.
Wow 52 pages and nobody has nuked the thread.
...I'm impressed.
If we can keep a "Mages vs Templars" thread open for over 200 hundred pages, then I'll be damned if we can't keep an Elf thread going.
I don't see why they need one. Just plop down a few houses in the middle of nowhere and BAM. Home. I know I'd be more than happy with that
Yeah, but all the land is already owned... it's illegal for them to settle within the borders of any nation... that's part of why they are always on the move.
I didn't even realize there was unsettled land out there... if that's the case, sending scouts (a lot of them, since this seems like a dangerous longshot) sounds like the best plan. If there's nobody out there and the wildlife isn't too tough to deal with, then the elves should try to settle the area. Staying in the slums and woodlands of the human kingdoms is too dangerous.
It's entirely jungle...perhaps this is where Dalish nature magic can really be of use.
This conversation is getting a bit circular at this point. Felassan makes reference to the immortality of the ancient elves. The point is that it could mean that there's some truth to elven lore. However, it's outright dismissed by some people, despite the fact that the same people cite Felassan's comparison of Arlathan to Orlais as truth.
If it seems circular, it would be because you practically re-posted a previous position nearly verbatim in response to a response, without so much as adding a supporting argument or citation despite being invited to.
People already agree there is some truth to the elven lore. Felessan is all about the element of truth behind the myth..
Let me make this simple: it's a double standard of some people accepting Felassan's word as long as he denigrates the elves, but not when he says something that could mean that there's truth to elven lore. That's the issue I have.
Again, I invite you to identify the specific people and positions, rather than make vague handwaves that ignore specifics or the context of his arguments.
I'm wondering how the elves got it in their heads they were immortal in the first place.
"Remember when we were immortal?"
"Lol, nope."
"Neither do I."
"I bet it's something else those damn shem took from us."
"It must've been so long ago, we must've forgotten."
"Damn shem."
Meanwhile in Skyrim:
Culture, history and faith can be preserved through generations. There's this thing called written word and oral tradition.
Those tend to be varying levels of inaccurate.
I’ll have to reply to this in parts.
The Chantry doesn't need to maintain a policy to root out heretics. No group has impacted life in Thedas more than they have. The Chantry is the dominant religious organization in the known world, and its influence prevails across most of the kingdoms therein. There is propaganda inherent within their theology that hinders diversity, and propagates racism, xenophobia, and the marginalization of people who do not share the same beliefs as them, and elves in particular. Even humans who do not believe in the Maker pay it lip service, for fear of persecution (and Leliana was ostracized for having a different interpretation of the Chant, despite her fervent belief in the Maker). Religious monopoly can do more harm than any military force.
The Chantry teaches that non-humans are further from the Maker. Because being at the Maker’s side is associated with virtuousness (and the opposite with sinfulness), this only reinforces the mistreatment of elves.
And as I mentioned before, it was on the authority of a Divine that the alienages were instituted, which segregates the elves, encouraging their isolation and substandard status. That same Divine ordered that that all Chantry art depicting elves be destroyed, with only a single statue of Shartan being spared, albeit with his ears docked, which seems to be the Thedosian equivalent of lightening skin tones. Furthermore, Shartan’s writings have been suppressed, and any verses in the Chant that mention him have been removed.
The power the Chantry holds over the general population’s education becomes evident when you consider that Shartan’s existence, or at least his participation and aid in Andraste’s rebellion, is not common knowledge. Most people in Thedas cannot read. Their illiteracy makes it easier to feed them misinformation, and to use that misinformation to influence their views.
Outside of the nobility, literacy is highest in the Chantry and its (former) affiliations- the Circle of Magi, the Templars and the Seekers. Even nobles are given a religious education alongside their academic one- the Human Noble warden and King Cailan, for example. The pen is mightier than the sword. Everyone from royals to poor commoners is indoctrinated by the Chantry through its education system, and the elves (and mages) suffer for it.
“Submit and become second-class citizens” or “be forced into the fringes of society” is not what I would call a choice, or at least, not a fair one, not when you’re forced between two unsavory choices (three if you count death). That is, if they were actually given it- officially. It’s still being forced. I’d say it’s more an illusion of choice than anything.
The idea that the Exalted Marches against the Imperium were as much a political struggle as a religious one is exactly the problem. The Chantry’s powerful political stake when paired with its religious monopoly is what makes them so dangerous for the elves, mages, and anyone who does not share their beliefs.
I understand where you’re coming from, but this is my take on it.
That's... nice?
Factual inaccuracies aside (the Chantry dogma doesn't claim the elves are further from the maker, the inherency argument is a meaningless non-starter, a choice between submission and free exile is a very important oportunity for self-definition for those whovalue such), you've basically just stated that the Chantry is powerful and influential (which is not in dispute) and that you don't like the status quo that it represents (which is a perfectly justifiable personal opinion).
You apparently don't like powerful organized religions. Okay.
I didn't even realize there was unsettled land out there... if that's the case, sending scouts (a lot of them, since this seems like a dangerous longshot) sounds like the best plan. If there's nobody out there and the wildlife isn't too tough to deal with, then the elves should try to settle the area. Staying in the slums and woodlands of the human kingdoms is too dangerous.
That's a good idea - a lot of scouts would be necessary simply to make the trek across the Anderfels, given how the darkspawn are still a threat to the surface in that nearly barren region. If it's suitable, some could stay behind to start building, while others could make it back to help the clans relocate to a promising area that may hold a bright future for the Elvhen.
Given that it seems to be more hospitable than the frozen tundra that seems to be south of Ferelden and the Dales, it could make an ideal destination for the Dalish to head to in order to finally build a nation where they won't be subservient to humans, or at risk from members of a religious organization that isn't welcoming of other faiths.
You apparently don't like powerful organized religions. Okay.
They seem unpopular for some reason on BSN.
Hm... I'm looking at a map and the Donarks actually look pretty promising. Has no one attempted to take a ship north? Eh... or would those waters be ruled by the Qunari? I mean... on the eastern shore, it's kind of close to Seheron... still, exploring this area by land or sea is better than trying to cross the ocean and find a continent that might not be there (less expensive too...).
Given that it seems to be more hospitable than the frozen tundra that seems to be south of Ferelden and the Dales, it could make an ideal destination for the Dalish to head to in order to finally build a nation where they won't be subservient to humans, or at risk from members of a religious organization that isn't welcoming of other faiths.
Agreed. If they can't fight, then they should be figuring out a way to leave. Waiting around to go extinct doesn't make a lot of sense.
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