2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm doubtful the Nakiri will accommodate the arrival of the Dalish, assuming they are still around. Maybe there's land beyond the Donarks that's uninhabited. As Thedas may be in the southern hemisphere, it's possible there could be a significant stretch of land where the Elvhen where the elves could finally settle and build a place of their own, although a mass exodus may make more sense than sending a small expeditionary unit to make it all that way and back, especially given the plethora of darkspawn in the Anderfels.

 

Yes! So they can all die out in the wilderness! make it or break it as a people, and either way be out of Humanities hair.

[Icy Magebane]

I'm doubtful the Nakiri will accommodate the arrival of the Dalish, assuming they are still around. Maybe there's land beyond the Donarks that's uninhabited. As Thedas may be in the southern hemisphere, it's possible there could be a significant stretch of land where the Elvhen where the elves could finally settle and build a place of their own, although a mass exodus may make more sense than sending a small expeditionary unit to make it all that way and back, especially given the plethora of darkspawn in the Anderfels.

A couple functioning Eluvians would come in handy right about now... sounds like a lot of walking back and forth.  Maybe Merrill had the right idea after all... 

 

A mass exodus seems risky though.  What if they reach the Donarks and find out that the inhabitants have already settled in and aren't looking for new citizens?  I'm in favor of several small or medium sized groups of hunters being used to scout the area first... if several teams go, at least a few of them should make it there safely.  If everyone goes at once, some people die on the trip and if the area is full of hostiles, they're going to wind up involved in a messy war...

 

The downside is that all this walking will probably take years...

[Samahl]

A couple functioning Eluvians would come in handy right about now...

 

If they can manage to gain access to one, then they really only need a small party capable of taking one along with.

[Icy Magebane]

If they can manage to gain access to one, then they really only need a small party capable of taking one along with.

Yeah... hey, maybe Merrill figured it out after DA2 ended?  You never know... (though I doubt it)

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah... hey, maybe Merrill figured it out after DA2 ended?  You never know... (though I doubt it)

 

Considering how that can possibly end...i wouldn't count on it.

 

She shattered the mirror in my play through, just saying.

[LobselVith8]

A couple functioning Eluvians would come in handy right about now... sounds like a lot of walking back and forth.  Maybe Merrill had the right idea after all... 

 

It's too bad Merrill never had access to one of the original Eluvians (in it's untainted form). Perhaps she could have unlocked the secret for the Elvhen. Maybe if she heard about the Warden and Morrigan heading through one in the Dragonbone Wastes from Ariane's clan, that could be possible for an expeditionary force looking to establish an elven homeland.

 

A mass exodus seems risky though.  What if they reach the Donarks and find out that the inhabitants have already settled in and aren't looking for new citizens?  I'm in favor of several small or medium sized groups of hunters being used to scout the area first... if several teams go, at least a few of them should make it there safely.  If everyone goes at once, some people die on the trip and if the area is full of hostiles, they're going to wind up involved in a messy war...

 

The downside is that all this walking will probably take years...

 

That's why I considered a much more substantial force, but perhaps you're right, and smaller teams would stand a higher chance of survival in heading through the darkspawn infested Anderfels and the Donarks, to see if the region is still inhabited, or if the Nakiri are gone (as there seemed to be some exodus of people who headed to Rivain from the nearby islands).

[Palidane]

Darn, this thread is moving quickly. For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents:

 

The elves don't need a new homeland. There's no feasible way they'd get one, and even if they could, it wouldn't fix anything. The way I see it, there are three possible ways that would go down, none of them good.

1. Briala pulls off her gambit, and hamstrings Orlais enough for the elves to consolidate power and take over Halamshiral. Elves all over Thedas hear the news, and start marching south to the Dales. By the time everyone's done sorting out the Fade Rift, the elves have become a contender. So now we have an isolationist elven state powerful enough to be dangerous but not enough to win a war who just spent most of a massive, world-ending cataclysm dicking around and backstabbing Team Reality. Does this sound familiar to anyone else? Because I'm getting major deja vu here. Essentially, this is just going to turn into a repeat of the previous Dales. One of these days, either Nevarra, Orlais, or Ferelden is going to look at the nation full of xenophobic elves sitting on a ton of arable land and think they're worth more dead than alive. Hell, maybe all three at once.
2. Same as above, but the elves grab every Dalish clan and City Elf on the continent, and manage to become powerful enough that nobody wants to take them on. So great, they have their independent nation. Now what? We just have a massive Cold War-style standoff between the humans and elves? With passive aggressive raids and sorties being sent against each other? How does that fix anything? I would think they basically become modern day Israel, surrounded by enemies within and without, and with no end in sight. Does that sound like anyone's idea of a victory?
3. Same as above, but the stalemate lasts a while and eventually the elves get the edge on the human nations. One day the gates of Halamshiral open and an army marches out, bent on conquering territory for the glory of The Creators! The tide of pointed ears envelops the continent, and one by one, the human nations fall to the bows of the Elvhen. The elves have lived long enough to see themselves become the villain, and things have come full circle back to the days of Arlathan. Yay?

And of course, this is assuming the elves actually manage to retake the Dales, which is so unlikely it's almost not even worth considering. At the end of the day, all of these outcomes are just history repeating itself. Nothing is going to change until the elves change their mindset and priorities. Otherwise, the cycle will just go on.

[Xilizhra]

Darn, this thread is moving quickly. For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents:

 

The elves don't need a new homeland. There's no feasible way they'd get one, and even if they could, it wouldn't fix anything. The way I see it, there are three possible ways that would go down, none of them good.

1. Briala pulls off her gambit, and hamstrings Orlais enough for the elves to consolidate power and take over Halamshiral. Elves all over Thedas hear the news, and start marching south to the Dales. By the time everyone's done sorting out the Fade Rift, the elves have become a contender. So now we have an isolationist elven state powerful enough to be dangerous but not enough to win a war who just spent most of a massive, world-ending cataclysm dicking around and backstabbing Team Reality. Does this sound familiar to anyone else? Because I'm getting major deja vu here. Essentially, this is just going to turn into a repeat of the previous Dales. One of these days, either Nevarra, Orlais, or Ferelden is going to look at the nation full of xenophobic elves sitting on a ton of arable land and think they're worth more dead than alive. Hell, maybe all three at once.
2. Same as above, but the elves grab every Dalish clan and City Elf on the continent, and manage to become powerful enough that nobody wants to take them on. So great, they have their independent nation. Now what? We just have a massive Cold War-style standoff between the humans and elves? With passive aggressive raids and sorties being sent against each other? How does that fix anything? I would think they basically become modern day Israel, surrounded by enemies within and without, and with no end in sight. Does that sound like anyone's idea of a victory?
3. Same as above, but the stalemate lasts a while and eventually the elves get the edge on the human nations. One day the gates of Halamshiral open and an army marches out, bent on conquering territory for the glory of The Creators! The tide of pointed ears envelops the continent, and one by one, the human nations fall to the bows of the Elvhen. The elves have lived long enough to see themselves become the villain, and things have come full circle back to the days of Arlathan. Yay?

And of course, this is assuming the elves actually manage to retake the Dales, which is so unlikely it's almost not even worth considering. At the end of the day, all of these outcomes are just history repeating itself. Nothing is going to change until the elves change their mindset and priorities. Otherwise, the cycle will just go on.

Why not have the humans change their mindset and priorities as well? Why must this be a one-way street?

 

Also, many would consider Israel to be more of a victory than the state of the Jewish people was before. And it would hardly seem impossible for the banner-carrier of your Team Reality, the Inquisition, to add the elves to its side.

[AresKeith]

They seem decent people. They gave the Wardens the idea of drinking darkspawn blood.

Maybe we might see a rare few again, like Avvar

[Samahl]

Also, many would consider Israel to be more of a victory than the state of the Jewish people was before.

 

At the expense of the Palestinians. I think the elves need a homeland, but I certainly don't want a repeat of Israel.

[MissMagi]

That's... nice?

 

Factual inaccuracies aside (the Chantry dogma doesn't claim the elves are further from the maker, the inherency argument is a meaningless non-starter, a choice between submission and free exile is a very important oportunity for self-definition for those whovalue such), you've basically just stated that the Chantry is powerful and influential (which is not in dispute) and that you don't like the status quo that it represents (which is a perfectly justifiable personal opinion).

 

You apparently don't like powerful organized religions. Okay.

I don't see any factual inaccuracies. Do you have The World of Thedas? Please check under the Religion section. Not just elves, but all non-humans are seen as further from the Maker.

 

Please explain to me why my argument is a "meaningless nonstarter"?  I disagree. There are several examples within the Chantry's core principles that illustrate this, but I didn't include them because they mostly concern mages. This thread's focus is on elves, after all.

 

I established not only that the Chantry is powerful and influential, but also that their word is more powerful and influential than any group in Thedas. I also explained why such extreme power and influence furthers the persecution of elves and other marginalized groups; The Chantry largely controls the education system. Most who are literate have been given an education according to their values, usually those with the most power- Chantry members, nobles, and sovereigns. I've also pointed out that illiteracy makes one easier to be misled, misinformed, manipulated and controlled-  and this applies to  most people in Thedas.

 

It was the the Chantry that suppressed Shartan's writings, removed him from the Chant, and destroyed all of their art depicting elves- save one with the ears docked. The fact that most do not know that an elf lead the slaves to fight alongside  Andraste makes it clear that yes, the Chantry does control the distribution of knowledge in Thedas, to the detriment of elves, mages, and "heretics". It was the Chantry that segregated them into slums where they  live in poverty and often have no access to city services. It is a fact that this action encouraged their isolation and substandard status.

 

 The Chantry uses milieu control to decide what messages reach the general population. One of those messages is that non-humans are further from the Maker, encouraging human supremacism and the "dehumanization" of elves. This is what the elite are taught- the ones who make the rules and control the lands, and this is what most believe. That is why their teachings are more dangerous than their martial strength, and perhaps more harmful than even their Exalted Marches, because unlike Exalted Marches, the harm that is done is institutionalized and constant.

 

So in short, I don't dislike powerful organized religions. I dislike powerful organized religions that whether or not by design, teach others to hate, discriminate, and oppress.  

[Aimi]

how about this, the Dalish can have Par Vollen, if they help take it from the Qunari

The Thiudareiks Solution is a cunning strategem with time-tested success.

[LostInReverie19]

Yes, of course they need and deserve a homeland of their own. They are treated like crap by almost every other race in Thedas, even enslaved quite often or used as servants, which is the next thing up from slavery. The Dalish live a nomadic life, never staying in one place for fear of persecution. They live hunted, unpleasant lives, as do the city elves. The city elves, of course, live in horrific poverty, quarantined to the worst slums of cities, and treated like dirt. How can anyone say the elves don't deserve to get away from a culture that obviously fears and despises them? They need their own place, where they can attempt to recover their lost culture and lore. Some say that the Dalish are racist against humans, but they have every right to be, after what was done to them. I think that if the elves were left alone in peace for long enough that their fear and hatred toward humans would eventually dissipate and the two races could learn to live with each other in peace, that is, of course, if the stupid Divine doesn't decide to launch another Exalted March against the "pagan" elves, which is a stupid reason. It just makes you realize how despicable the Chantry really is as an institution. 

[Heimdall]

Yes, of course they need and deserve a homeland of their own. They are treated like crap by almost every other race in Thedas, even enslaved quite often or used as servants, which is the next thing up from slavery. The Dalish live a nomadic life, never staying in one place for fear of persecution. They live hunted, unpleasant lives, as do the city elves. The city elves, of course, live in horrific poverty, quarantined to the worst slums of cities, and treated like dirt. How can anyone say the elves don't deserve to get away from a culture that obviously fears and despises them? They need their own place, where they can attempt to recover their lost culture and lore. Some say that the Dalish are racist against humans, but they have every right to be, after what was done to them. I think that if the elves were left alone in peace for long enough that their fear and hatred toward humans would eventually dissipate and the two races could learn to live with each other in peace, that is, of course, if the stupid Divine doesn't decide to launch another Exalted March against the "pagan" elves, which is a stupid reason. It just makes you realize how despicable the Chantry really is as an institution. 

And is there a reason that running off to found their own xenophobic isolationist country is superior to seeking equal rights in other countries?  Because that idea went so well for the Dalish...

[LobselVith8]

If they can manage to gain access to one, then they really only need a small party capable of taking one along with.

 

That's an excellent idea. In this hypothetical scenario, a successful expedition into a new, uninhabited area could lead to a mass exodus of the clans for the next Arlathvenn to establish an elven homeland. I also think some Dalish groups could reach out to the elves currently living under human rule who may want to live on their own terms. Either the Donarks, a region past the Donarks, or another area could hold promise for giving wide berth to the racial and religious hostility of the Andrastian humans.

 

 

It's also unknown how the people of Nakiri would receive the Dalish, given what was previously mentioned in this thread (from the Green Ronin Dragon Age Game Master's Guide): "Most records say that Nakiri of the Donark Forest was the first one to suggest that the blood of the enemy could be a crucial tool. His people believed that consuming a foe’s blood was a way to claim that enemy’s strength for oneself." There could be a strong threat of violence if the people of the Donarks decide that they want to consume the blood of the Dalish expedition teams.

 

I suppose there could also be an uninhabited land mass west of the Hunterhorn Mountains and the Volca Sea, if the threat posed by the people of the Donarks is too great a risk.

[zenrockoutkast]

At the expense of the Palestinians. I think the elves need a homeland, but I certainly don't want a repeat of Israel.

I think this Israel analogy is off-base.  For one, a previous poster said that Jews were displaced by a purge and that is [mostly] wrong.  While the Holocaust did displace a large Jewish population, it did not displace them from Israel but rather from European states into which they had integrated (I'd also like to point out that the formation of the modern Israeli state caused one of the largest refugee surges in modern times).  Prior to modern Israel, there hadn't been an Israeli state for almost three thousand years.  Israel was overtaken by military campaigns during a period of expansion by the large empires in the region, as were many smaller nations.  The Dales, on the other hand, were conquered relatively recently and not through a normal campaign but one that targeted heathen elves specifically.  Furthermore, I don't believe many Jews have lived a nomadic lifestyle for centuries.  When they were the subject of discrimination that displaced them they typically settled somewhere else rather than resort to transience.  This is more similar to the plight of Ferelden refugees in the Free Marches than it is to Alienage elves.

 

Although the Alienages parallel European Jewish slums, the difference between that and the elves is that the elves were conquered by Andrastrian nations and subsequently forced into slums.  Israel, on the other hand, was defeated, its citizens absorbed, and for the most part conquered Jews were treated well by their conquerors.  In fact, the Roman Empire even made an exception for Jews to its policy of conversion to the Roman religion, it's part of the reason why Christianity was seen as such a threat.  Anyway, it wasn't until the rise of Catholicism and the Holy Roman Empire that prejudice against Jews started to manifest in official action.  Jewish slums were a result of systemic discrimination by a society into which the Jewish population was already integrated, whereas elves were conquered and then shepherded right into slums.  If anything, I think the Alienages more closely parallel black slums and projects in America than European Jewish slums.

 

I'd also like to point out how the elves parallel Palestinians in some ways.  For one, the elven religion is looked upon as strange by Andrastrians, even to the point where such misunderstanding caused violence against elves.  This is similar to a lot of the false rumors that were spread about Jews under Christian occupation and in the centuries that followed, but it also parallels modern misconceptions about Islam and prejudice towards Muslims.  The Alienages themselves parallel the West Bank insofar as West Bank residents are walled in and have their travel controlled by Israel, somewhat similar to elves being forced into Alienages.  The West Bank's commerce also suffers from Israeli occupation, similar to elves having to scrape by simply by being denied the means for true subsistence.  Also, the recent military actions have been blamed, in part, on the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers supposedly by Hamas, but it has come out after the fact that it was actually a small group of rogue extremists acting on their own.  This also parallels the Dales, as kidnappings of humans was used as a justification in attacking the Dales, even though it was suspected that the elves might not have been at fault.

 

While there are some similarities between Elves and Jews, it's not a perfect analogy.  I don't think Bioware intended to say that Elves are Jews and any sympathy for Elves should serve as a parallel to Zionism.  I think, rather, that the Elves are a pastiche of many of the injustices visited upon various peoples in the real world, and that the message that should be imparted is not to support this or that political agenda, but rather to be cognizant of such injustices and think about the systemic causes of such ongoing injustice.

 

I'm also gonna say, I find much of the European support for Zionism to have been patently hypocritical.  "We simply can't have you in our society without discriminating against you so we have to give you your own state, it's the only solution.  Oh, and by the way, we're not going to sacrifice our own territory to ensure you have a homeland, we're going to go to a different region and create a homeland there whether the residents like it or not."  That's sort of how I view these proposals to have the Elves settle somewhere way from most of the residents of Thedas.  It's not really addressing the issue of prejudice, it's simply moving the embattled group away from the prejudiced population.  Out of sight out of mind, right?

[Heimdall]

I think this Israel analogy is off-base.  For one, a previous poster said that Jews were displaced by a purge and that is [mostly] wrong.  While the Holocaust did displace a large Jewish population, it did not displace them from Israel but rather from European states into which they had integrated (I'd also like to point out that the formation of the modern Israeli state caused one of the largest refugee surges in modern times).  Prior to modern Israel, there hadn't been an Israeli state for almost three thousand years.  Israel was overtaken by military campaigns during a period of expansion by the large empires in the region, as were many smaller nations.  The Dales, on the other hand, were conquered relatively recently and not through a normal campaign but one that targeted heathen elves specifically.  Furthermore, I don't believe many Jews have lived a nomadic lifestyle for centuries.  When they were the subject of discrimination that displaced them they typically settled somewhere else rather than resort to transience.  This is more similar to the plight of Ferelden refugees in the Free Marches than it is to Alienage elves.

Depending on who you ask, the invasion of the Dales was retaliation for the Dalish attack on Orlais. Just saying.
 

Although the Alienages parallel European Jewish slums, the difference between that and the elves is that the elves were conquered by Andrastrian nations and subsequently forced into slums.  Israel, on the other hand, was defeated, its citizens absorbed, and for the most part conquered Jews were treated well by their conquerors.  In fact, the Roman Empire even made an exception for Jews to its policy of conversion to the Roman religion, it's part of the reason why Christianity was seen as such a threat.  Anyway, it wasn't until the rise of Catholicism and the Holy Roman Empire that prejudice against Jews started to manifest in official action.  Jewish slums were a result of systemic discrimination by a society into which the Jewish population was already integrated, whereas elves were conquered and then shepherded right into slums.  If anything, I think the Alienages more closely parallel black slums and projects in America than European Jewish slums.

 Actually, I feel I should note that there were many times that the Pope acted as a protector to Jews in the middle ages when public opinion was against them.  For example, during the height of the Black Death there was a popular conspiracy theory blaming the spread of the affliction on Jews poisoning wells.  The Pope issued a papal bull forbidding violence against the Jews, pointing out that Jews were dying too and it made no sense.  It didn't stop any of the pogroms that ensued (People are perfectly capable of vile acts of intolerance without institutional support) but he tried.

I'd also like to point out how the elves parallel Palestinians in some ways.  For one, the elven religion is looked upon as strange by Andrastrians, even to the point where such misunderstanding caused violence against elves.  This is similar to a lot of the false rumors that were spread about Jews under Christian occupation and in the centuries that followed, but it also parallels modern misconceptions about Islam and prejudice towards Muslims.  The Alienages themselves parallel the West Bank insofar as West Bank residents are walled in and have their travel controlled by Israel, somewhat similar to elves being forced into Alienages.  The West Bank's commerce also suffers from Israeli occupation, similar to elves having to scrape by simply by being denied the means for true subsistence.  Also, the recent military actions have been blamed, in part, on the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers supposedly by Hamas, but it has come out after the fact that it was actually a small group of rogue extremists acting on their own.  This also parallels the Dales, as kidnappings of humans was used as a justification in attacking the Dales, even though it was suspected that the elves might not have been at fault.

Kidnapping of humans? The sacking of Orlesian cities, including the capital, is used in justification of the Orlesian invasion.

[Palidane]

Why not have the humans change their mindset and priorities as well? Why must this be a one-way street?

I mostly meant that in regards to the Dalish, who have no idea what they're doing. I agree the humans should change their minds as well, but that isn't going to happen with fire and blood. What Celene was doing was a good start, and if she wasn't willing to abandon her principles at the drop of a hat, it might have worked.

[zenrockoutkast]

Depending on who you ask, the invasion of the Dales was retaliation for the Dalish attack on Orlais. Just saying.
 
 Actually, I feel I should note that there were many times that the Pope acted as a protector to Jews in the middle ages when public opinion was against them.  For example, during the height of the Black Death there was a popular conspiracy theory blaming the spread of the affliction on Jews poisoning wells.  The Pope issued a papal bull forbidding violence against the Jews, pointing out that Jews were dying too and it made no sense.  It didn't stop any of the pogroms that ensued (People are perfectly capable of vile acts of intolerance without institutional support) but he tried.
Kidnapping of humans? The sacking of Orlesian cities, including the capital, is used in justification of the Orlesian invasion.

And the Dalish attack on Orlais was a response to Human violence against Elves, perpetrated both because kidnappings were blamed on Elves and because of rumors that Elves used Humans in sacrifical rituals.  I also don't think that destroying their country and putting them in alienages was a proper response to a military attack.

 

The Catholic Church also prohibited Jews from holding certain occupations, contributing to Jewish poverty and stereotypes about greedy Jews (seeing as how they were the only ones allowed to lend money, and money lending was one of the few occupations they were allowed to hold).  My point was that much of the discrimination against Jewish populations came long after the fall of the ancient Israeli state and took place under Christian occupation, and that when ancient powers conquered what had been Israel they generally were not as harsh to the Jewish population as Andrastrian nations are to Elves.

 

I will say, though, that when the Elves attacked Orlais they went far beyond initial victories and seemed to be intent on conquering the entire nation.  That's actually not very dissimilar from Israel going to war with other nations over self-defense and then taking territory from those nations beyond what it started with (Although Egypt and Lebanon bear few similarities to Orlais, and the Elves didn't displace anyone in the establishment of the Dales).  Like I said, it's not a perfect analogy, although there are some striking similarities.

[LobselVith8]

Yes, of course they need and deserve a homeland of their own. They are treated like crap by almost every other race in Thedas, even enslaved quite often or used as servants, which is the next thing up from slavery. The Dalish live a nomadic life, never staying in one place for fear of persecution. They live hunted, unpleasant lives, as do the city elves. The city elves, of course, live in horrific poverty, quarantined to the worst slums of cities, and treated like dirt. How can anyone say the elves don't deserve to get away from a culture that obviously fears and despises them?

 

Yeah, the elves certainly deserve to have a place of their own, after having endured almost a thousand years of a status quo under human rule that effectively dehumanizes them. We know that elves have been brutalized, raped, abused, and even killed without repercussion, and entire populations can be killed right down to the children. The idea that elves should continue to suffer and die in an oppressive system until Andrastian humans decide to stop seeing them as "less than people" simply isn't feasible.

 

They need their own place, where they can attempt to recover their lost culture and lore. Some say that the Dalish are racist against humans, but they have every right to be, after what was done to them. I think that if the elves were left alone in peace for long enough that their fear and hatred toward humans would eventually dissipate and the two races could learn to live with each other in peace, that is, of course, if the stupid Divine doesn't decide to launch another Exalted March against the "pagan" elves, which is a stupid reason. It just makes you realize how despicable the Chantry really is as an institution. 

 

I'd say the Dalish are wary of outsiders because outsiders are (almost always) a threat to the clans, given the intolerance towards their cultural and religious beliefs. I'm sure opinions and attitudes towards humans in general vary, but it's smart to be cautious when the lives of your people are at stake.

[Heimdall]

And the Dalish attack on Orlais was a response to Human violence against Elves, perpetrated both because kidnappings were blamed on Elves and because of rumors that Elves used Humans in sacrifical rituals.  I also don't think that destroying their country and putting them in alienages was a proper response to a military attack.
 
The Catholic Church also prohibited Jews from holding certain occupations, contributing to Jewish poverty and stereotypes about greedy Jews (seeing as how they were the only ones allowed to lend money, and money lending was one of the few occupations they were allowed to hold).  My point was that much of the discrimination against Jewish populations came long after the fall of the ancient Israeli state and took place under Christian occupation, and that when ancient powers conquered what had been Israel they generally were not as harsh to the Jewish population as Andrastrian nations are to Elves.

I don't know where you got that from. There's nothing about kidnappings in Dalish or Chantry accounts of the event to my knowledge. But there was no invasion of the Dales until the Dalish thought it was a bright idea to attack the most powerful nation in Thedas and assault the capital of its largest religion. And it was only after all this that much of the ill feeling towards elves developed in the Chantry.

I know, I've studied medieval history, that same status as money-lenders sometimes also motivated officials in power to protect them. I'm just saying it was complicated and not to blame it purely on the institutions. People are perfectly capable of being bigoted and vicious without them.

[Palidane]

Yeah, the elves certainly deserve to have a place of their own, after having endured almost a thousand years of a status quo under human rule that effectively dehumanizes them. We know that elves have been brutalized, raped, abused, and even killed without repercussion, and entire populations can be killed right down to the children. The idea that elves should continue to suffer and die in an oppressive system until Andrastian humans decide to stop seeing them as "less than people" simply isn't feasible.

I don't hear many better ideas. I stand by my three outcomes if they take the Dales again, and a mass exodus just doesn't sound feasible. Even assuming you could get all the elves out of the known world, odds are, somebody still lives wherever you're going, and they're not going to want to share. Assuming they could beat them, doesn't that just turn them into the Orlesians they hate so much? And then what happens when Orlais/the Anderfels/Ferelden expands? How would that not turn into a repeat of the Dales? Too many holes in that plan.

 

I'd say the Dalish are wary of outsiders because outsiders are (almost always) a threat to the clans, given the intolerance towards their cultural and religious beliefs. I'm sure opinions and attitudes towards humans in general vary, but it's smart to be cautious when the lives of your people are at stake.

In fairness, it's not like the Dalish are any less intolerant. To be honest, it seems to me the only difference between the Dalish and the rest of Thedas is that they lost the war.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

the Dalish are also typically a threat to everyone around them

Not really, there is a codex that straight up says that even though some are hostile, most Dailish just want to be left alone.

[LobselVith8]

And the Dalish attack on Orlais was a response to Human violence against Elves, perpetrated both because kidnappings were blamed on Elves and because of rumors that Elves used Humans in sacrifical rituals.  I also don't think that destroying their country and putting them in alienages was a proper response to a military attack.

 

The Dalish claim that humans invaded their kindgom because the elves refused to convert to the Andrastian faith, which inevitably lead to the war (according to the Dalish codex and what is explicitly stated by the elven Warden), while the humans claim the elves attacked Red Crossing for no reason and prompted the war as a result. I know you're citing the unsubstantiated rumors from the Chantry version, but those could simply be hearsay intended to vilify the Dalish for following a pantheon of gods, as opposed to the Maker.

 

I will say, though, that when the Elves attacked Orlais they went far beyond initial victories and seemed to be intent on conquering the entire nation.  That's actually not very dissimilar from Israel going to war with other nations over self-defense and then taking territory from those nations beyond what it started with (Although Egypt and Lebanon bear few similarities to Orlais, and the Elves didn't displace anyone in the establishment of the Dales).  Like I said, it's not a perfect analogy, although there are some striking similarities.

 

Well, if the Dalish historical account is correct, then it's not surprising that the Dalish wanted to prevent Orlais from being in a position to pose a threat to them by dismantling their empire. If the war was about conquest and conversion, then the Dalish faced a threat to their freedom of self-governance and their religious right to follow the Creators. The two nations have had issues since Drakon rose to power and conquered the rest of their neighbors to establish an empire under the worship of the Maker, and his difficulties with the Dales prevented his intended conquest of the Free Marches.

[Icy Magebane]

I don't hear many better ideas. I stand by my three outcomes if they take the Dales again, and a mass exodus just doesn't sound feasible. Even assuming you could get all the elves out of the known world, odds are, somebody still lives wherever you're going, and they're not going to want to share. Assuming they could beat them, doesn't that just turn them into the Orlesians they hate so much? And then what happens when Orlais/the Anderfels/Ferelden expands? How would that not turn into a repeat of the Dales? Too many holes in that plan.

If war isn't an option, then a mass exodus is better than waiting around to die.