2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I mostly meant that in regards to the Dalish, who have no idea what they're doing. I agree the humans should change their minds as well, but that isn't going to happen with fire and blood. What Celene was doing was a good start, and if she wasn't willing to abandon her principles at the drop of a hat, it might have worked.

The fire and blood is there to protect the elves if the humans attack again.

 

 

 

I don't hear many better ideas. I stand by my three outcomes if they take the Dales again, and a mass exodus just doesn't sound feasible. Even assuming you could get all the elves out of the known world, odds are, somebody still lives wherever you're going, and they're not going to want to share. Assuming they could beat them, doesn't that just turn them into the Orlesians they hate so much? And then what happens when Orlais/the Anderfels/Ferelden expands? How would that not turn into a repeat of the Dales? Too many holes in that plan.

Integration won't work until the Chantry learns cultural and religious tolerance.

[Master Warder Z_]

If war isn't an option, then a mass exodus is better than waiting around to die.

 

Assimilation is not death.

 

It's evolution.

[Heimdall]

The fire and blood is there to protect the elves if the humans attack again.

 

 

Integration won't work until the Chantry learns cultural and religious tolerance.

The Dalish could give it a try themselves for that matter.

[Palidane]

The Dalish claim that humans invaded their kindgom because the elves refused to convert to the Andrastian faith, which inevitably lead to the war (according to the Dalish codex and what is explicitly stated by the elven Warden), while the humans claim the elves attacked Red Crossing for no reason and prompted the war as a result. I know you're citing the unsubstantiated rumors from the Chantry version, but those could simply be hearsay intended to vilify the Dalish for following a pantheon of gods, as opposed to the Maker.

I don't know, between the two Codex entries we have, the Chantry's version sounds a lot more solid. The Dalish account just says they sent Templars when the missionaries failed, and then completely glosses over the entire war and starts with the usual Dalish rhetoric. The Chantry makes much more specific claims of specific attacks in specific locations, that could be independently verified. I think it's unlikely the Chantry completely made up an entire war, so their account seems to be a lot more verifiable.

 

Well, if the Dalish historical account is correct, then it's not surprising that the Dalish wanted to prevent Orlais from being in a position to pose a threat to them by dismantling their empire. If the war was about conquest and conversion, then the Dalish faced a threat to their freedom of self-governance and their religious right to follow the Creators. The two nations have had issues since Drakon rose to power and conquered the rest of their neighbors to establish an empire under the worship of the Maker, and his difficulties with the Dales prevented his intended conquest of the Free Marches.

Agreed, but then they kind of lose their moral high ground, right? Most people in this thread seem to view the Fall of the Dales as some massive injustice perpetrated on innocent bystanders who just wanted to frolic in the woods with their halla. No, the Dalish started a freaking war and then lost it. And when you lose a war, the victors can do whatever they want. You don't get to pass a victim complex along for generations, saying how the terrible humans wronged you and drove you out and destroyed your culture and so on when you picked a fight and lost.

[TheJediSaint]

Assimilation is not death.

 

It's evolution.

[Palidane]

The fire and blood is there to protect the elves if the humans attack again.

Because that's worked so well in the past, right?

 

Integration won't work until the Chantry learns cultural and religious tolerance.

 

Agreed. But don't you think now is about the the time for radical shifts in Chantry policy? It looks like that's the way the wind is blowing, and that's even before factoring the Veil Tear.

[Icy Magebane]

Agreed, but then they kind of lose their moral high ground, right? Most people in this thread seem to view the Fall of the Dales as some massive injustice perpetrated on innocent bystanders who just wanted to frolic in the woods with their halla. No, the Dalish started a freaking war and then lost it. And when you lose a war, the victors can do whatever they want. You don't get to pass a victim complex along for generations, saying how the terrible humans wronged you and drove you out and destroyed your culture and so on when you picked a fight and lost.

The war happened hundreds of years ago... it's not even relevant aside from placing today's culture in context and explaining why things turned out the way they did.  What I'm personally concerned with is the lack of legal rights and societal inequality for the present day elves.  Today's humans can't be excused for mistreating the elves just because their ancestors lost a war centuries ago,

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well I suppose I might as well chime in on the OP, while I can now instead of continuing earlier argument.

I'm not opposed to the idea of an elven homeland, but only if it will help in the long run. And I feel that trying to retake The Dales is impractical and would lead only to ruin. Even if the Dailish had the might and collective desire to do so, (they do not) they could never hold it in the long term and would likely have to kill many people to get it. Violence will only make things worse, and they can get much worse for the city and Dailish elves.

One thing to keep in mind is that although we don't have a Glory Age map of the Dales, it sounded like it bordered Orlais close to Montsimmard and the Ferelden valley. The current province of Orlais does not. TME seems to define the Dales as Halamshiral and the surrounding area. Even if every last human village in that region was abandoned, Halamshiral still has major cities to both sides. In essence, it would still be completely surrounded by Orlais.

A better place for an elven homeland could perhaps be the Trishaan (it is supposed to be uninhabited) or Rivain if the Qunari threat were somehow removed.

[LobselVith8]

The fire and blood is there to protect the elves if the humans attack again.

 

Sometimes, it's necessary to fight for one's freedom, and the purge against thousands of elves in Halamshiral only verified where Celene's interests actually lie; Gaspard isn't any better in comparison. There is also the possibility that the Inquisiton could contribute to the elven cause, as I'd imagine an elven Inquisitor would have more reason to help the elven people who are suffering under human rule than support either contenders fighting to control a regime he may want to see come to an end.

 

Both the Dalish Warden and Merrill can express an interest in an elven homeland, so it could be possible that the elven Inquisitor may want the same (depending on player choices).

 

Integration won't work until the Chantry learns cultural and religious tolerance.

 

Given how the Chantry preaches that the Maker will only return once people from all four corners of the world follow their religion, I'm highly doubtful that will happen.

[Palidane]

The war happened hundreds of years ago... it's not even relevant aside from placing today's culture in context and explaining why things turned out the way they did.  What I'm personally concerned with is the lack of legal rights and societal inequality for the present day elves.  Today's humans can't be excused for mistreating the elves just because their ancestors lost a war centuries ago,

Fair enough. I just don't really like the Dalish's narrative of events, and their massive persecution complex. They seem to gloss over a lot of history so they can get a black-and-white story out of it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Fair enough. I just don't really like the Dalish's narrative of events, and their massive persecution complex. They seem to gloss over a lot of history so they can get a black-and-white story out of it.

 

The Victim Trope needs a reason for the victimization to be valid.

[Icy Magebane]

A better place for an elven homeland could perhaps be the Trishaan (it is supposed to be uninhabited) or Rivain if the Qunari threat were somehow removed.

I don't know if I'm comfortable with being stuck between Orlais and an uncharted mountain range either... it's an option I guess, but I doubt the Orlesians would let them stay unchallenged there for long.

[Steelcan]

The Dalish could give it a try themselves for that matter.

if the Dalish want to go all Targaryen on humanity, let them come

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't know if I'm comfortable with being stuck between Orlais and an uncharted mountain range either... it's an option I guess, but I doubt the Orlesians would let them stay unchallenged there for long.

 

Hence why they need to pledge themselves to Orlais.

 

The Valley of the Flowers worked, Because the elves fought for Nilfgard during their Northern Conquests and were effective, You actually need to make yourself worth the effort to maintain as a resource if you want a bargain on the National level.

[Steelcan]

, as I'd imagine an elven Inquisitor would have more reason to help the elven people who are suffering under human rule than support either contenders fighting to control a regime he may want to see come to an end.

the Inquisitor should support whoever is going to most effectively restore order to the world

[MisterJB]

I have found the perfect homeland for the elves.

I present my arguments.

 

[Palidane]

if the Dalish want to go all Targaryen on humanity, let them come

Lol. The elves, especially the Dalish, are a minority. Minorities should never resort to violence because they will automatically lose, almost by definition.

[Master Warder Z_]

Lol. The elves, especially the Dalish, are a minority. Minorities should never resort to violence because they will automatically lose, almost by definition.

 

Where is the fun in reason and logic though?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Lol. The elves, especially the Dalish, are a minority. Minorities should never resort to violence because they will automatically lose, almost by definition.

 

Shhh! No Dalish you should totally go to war and show those filthy Shems what's what!

 

*Whispering* Once they've gotten themselves killed we can work on giving rights to the City elves!*

[MisterJB]

The problem of trying to out-Targaryen the Targaryens is that they don't have dragons.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't see any factual inaccuracies. Do you have The World of Thedas? Please check under the Religion section. Not just elves, but all non-humans are seen as further from the Maker.

 

And we also have egaltarian strains of the dogma in which everyone is equal in comparison to the Maker, and that the Maker embraces all.

 

 

 

 

Please explain to me why my argument is a "meaningless nonstarter"?  I disagree. There are several examples within the Chantry's core principles that illustrate this, but I didn't include them because they mostly concern mages. This thread's focus is on elves, after all.

 

 

I consider inherency arguments about political positions non-starters because they are overwhelmingly fallacy-laden subjective arguments that reflect the arguer's preferences far more than the subject matter.

 

I'm no more interested arguing against your inherency arguments than I am in arguing against your favorite color. As a preference, I have no quarrel. As an objective statement, it wouldn't do any good and would be a waste of time and energy and interest.

 

 

 

 

 

I established not only that the Chantry is powerful and influential, but also that their word is more powerful and influential than any group in Thedas. I also explained why such extreme power and influence furthers the persecution of elves and other marginalized groups; The Chantry largely controls the education system. Most who are literate have been given an education according to their values, usually those with the most power- Chantry members, nobles, and sovereigns. I've also pointed out that illiteracy makes one easier to be misled, misinformed, manipulated and controlled-  and this applies to  most people in Thedas.

 

 

Not really, but to be fair you'd need a thesis longer than this thread and you'd still be wrong about critical points here and there- like the control of the education system. The Chantry is the most prevalent center of knowledge in Thedas, but it isn't the only one and it doesn't dictate what others may or may not teach. It is not a monopoly that could accurately be described as controlling the education system, not least because there isn't an education system to be controlled and the Chantry's influence comes by default, and it doesn't exercise thought-police controls on permissable thought across Thedas.

 

I could agree with the thrust of your argument (that disproportionate presence in education gives disproportionate influence) and find conclusions flawed because of over-reliance on some points and an under-recognition of others.
 

 

It was the the Chantry that suppressed Shartan's writings, removed him from the Chant, and destroyed all of their art depicting elves- save one with the ears docked. The fact that most do not know that an elf lead the slaves to fight alongside  Andraste makes it clear that yes, the Chantry does control the distribution of knowledge in Thedas, to the detriment of elves, mages, and "heretics". It was the Chantry that segregated them into slums where they  live in poverty and often have no access to city services. It is a fact that this action encouraged their isolation and substandard status.

 

 The Chantry uses milieu control to decide what messages reach the general population. One of those messages is that non-humans are further from the Maker, encouraging human supremacism and the "dehumanization" of elves. This is what the elite are taught- the ones who make the rules and control the lands, and this is what most believe. That is why their teachings are more dangerous than their martial strength, and perhaps more harmful than even their Exalted Marches, because unlike Exalted Marches, the harm that is done is institutionalized and constant.

 

Yawn.

 

Seriously, what do you think you're arguing against here? I'm not challenging your opinion, nor are you exactly arguing against any argument of mine.

 

 

 

So in short, I don't dislike powerful organized religions. I dislike powerful organized religions that whether or not by design, teach others to hate, discriminate, and oppress.

 

And I, as an individual, do make a significant distinction about design (being an institution in a racist culture is not the same as being a racist institution), I disagree with your definition/categorizations, and I disagree with your allotment of moral/ethical responsibility.

 

 

If my preferences mattered in the slightest, I would not want your views to prevail. I do not find your positions particularly convincing except when they happen to agree with conclusions I have already reached. I do not think trying to enforce your preferences and beliefs would make for a better Thedas. I believe that, were what I understand your views and preferences to be followed and attempted to be implemented, it would come out for the worse for everyone involved, even the ones you intended to help. I feel you exagerate the harm, underestimate the good, and would expect you to spend more time and effort tearing down imperfect institutions you have an emotional iceberg about rather than spend the time more productively and to better effect by reforming them or even in establishing new instutitons that wouldn't be just as bad as worse as what you seek to destroy.

 

All of which means... nothing, because my preferences don't matter in the slightest. There is no 'winning' the thread. There is no prize for converting the other side to your position. The developers are not going to rewrite the game or base their future ones based off of some witty retort or empassioned post against  the evils of an organized religion. They aren't going to base their ideas out of some consensus in constantly reoccuring threads that emerges from a mix of logic and irrationality-fed exasperation and exhaustion letting one side or the other claim a 'win.' It doesn't work like that.

 

I'm not interested in changing or even challenging your opinion. And you expressing your opinion doesn't challenge me in the slightest, especially when it's a broad non-sequitor like this that doesn't even directly challenge an argument.

 

I post because I have fun in doing so. Arguments, even with people I don't respect, can be enjoyable for a number of different reasons. It keeps my mind sharp, my attention to detail honed, a challenge to maintain composure and avoid sloppy argument styles, and a general enjoyment of my de facto role as a devil's advocate who challenges the acceptable norm. Plus, the occassional agreement or recognition of people I actually do respect, including some of the very same people I argue against. That's fun.

 

You, on the other hand, definitely don't seem to be having fun- if anything you seem defensive and hostile. And you aren't really countering an argument directly, and instead dwelt a good deal of time and thought on a subject you clearly dislike. So... that's nice? Maybe you enjoy the aggravation in some way? Some people live off of stress- I know I do. But usually not the sort that leaves me coming off as unhappy.

[Steelcan]

The problem of trying to out-Targaryen the Targaryens is that they don't have dragons.

I read that in Tywin's voice

[Dean_the_Young]

I have found the perfect homeland for the elves.

I present my arguments.

 

 

Okay, I laughed.

[Icy Magebane]

Fair enough. I just don't really like the Dalish's narrative of events, and their massive persecution complex. They seem to gloss over a lot of history so they can get a black-and-white story out of it.

I totally get that.  Whatever really happened back then, I am willing to admit that a story painting the ancient elves as mostly innocent is a good way to keep your culture strong.  That way, it's less likely that people will question it, and so the Dalish ideals are easily passed through the generations.  This is typical of most cultures, real or imaginary, and is a generally smart way to control the people.  After the first few generations, however, there's no way of knowing what actually happened.  Now and then you can find a few elves like Sarel, who will admit that the elves probably weren't totally innocent if you press him.  Most of them probably focus on the problems they face every day, and do not bother to question what they've been told.

 

The main problem though, is that no matter what's true and what isn't, the city and Dalish elves have to figure out a better plan than living on the outskirts of society.  I see their hostility towards outsiders as justified, given the risks of dealing with humans, but eventually that just gets the wrong person angry and they get attacked anyway...

[LobselVith8]

The war happened hundreds of years ago... it's not even relevant aside from placing today's culture in context and explaining why things turned out the way they did.  What I'm personally concerned with is the lack of legal rights and societal inequality for the present day elves.  Today's humans can't be excused for mistreating the elves just because their ancestors lost a war centuries ago.

 

What elves have to endure in modern Thedas is certainly more important than a debate over who was right or wrong centuries ago, particularly when the developers have refused to address which side of the historical account is correct.

 

I'd also add that there's nothing that really validates the Chantry version over the Dalish version. The Chantry version cited the attack of Red Crossing, while the Dalish version read it was human incursion into their kingdom because the elves refused to convert. The Chantry version brings up rumor and hearsay that paints the elves in a bad light for following gods; it never really spends that much time on the actual war. Neither version explores the nuances of the war because both are somewhat condescended, and both spend some time focusing on other issues.

 

I don't know if I'm comfortable with being stuck between Orlais and an uncharted mountain range either... it's an option I guess, but I doubt the Orlesians would let them stay unchallenged there for long.

 

There could be a safe haven where the Dalish would have a strategic advantage over any enemies that might threaten them. Perhaps the land mass west of the Hunterhorn Mountains?