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[Heimdall]

From the wikia: "The cause of the conflict that resulting in the destruction of the Dales is disputed. The Dalish claim it was simple racial and religious persecution, saying templars invaded their kingdom when they kicked out Chantry missionaries. Chantry sources describe tensions building over the years as the elves became increasingly isolationist: The Dales barred all trade or discourse beyond their borders and only attracted greater ire when they refused to aid the human kingdoms during the Second Blight. There were rumors in the bordering Orlesian lands of the elves kidnapping humans to sacrifice to their gods and tensions reached a head with an elven attack on the village of Red Crossing" Which they cite as being from the codex.

I'm not saying that discrimination doesn't happen without institutional support or that there can't be examples of individuals in power being decent to embattled minorities despite dsicrimination being institutionalized, but discrimination against the Jewish population was institutionalized.

Ah, those RUMORED kidnappings. Well, as one of those who participated in the editing that information onto wiki page, I can tell you that that remark was an example of the rising tensions not the direct cause of the war.

[LobselVith8]

I doubt mass-producing "credits to their race" will really help, especially since humans would simply begin comparing the lowest achieving elves to the highest achieving ones and come to the conclusion that elves have earned their low status, ignoring that they'll never have as much access to resources as humans will.

 

It certainly hasn't done anything for the Circle mages, who helped Chantry forces against the Dales, against the darkspawn during all the Blights, and against the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches. Thedas history has proven it's short memory with heroic elves when the Grey Warden Prosper wrote of Garahel, "My friend, this elf who helped us unite the lands and cleanse Thedas of the darkspawn scourge will always be remembered. I swear it." The Hero of the Fourth Blight, Garahel, has been forgotten about in present day Thedas (to the point where Duncan basically educates the elven protagonist about this person), and the accomplishments of the Dalish who helped save the world from the Fifth Blight are only remembered for a short time.

[Icy Magebane]

Okay... I don't know if

-snip-

So in other words, "die in their wars, worship their gods, and the humans might grant the elves some measure of respect."  I see.  Well, you certainly seem to be sure of your views, but I sense more than a little idealism and whitewashing at play.  At least Heimdall didn't sound so pretentious when s/he said it.  If it's all the same to you, I'll take my chances on "silly ideas" that are, in actuality, nowhere near as unrealistic as you claim.  Saying "that won't work" and presenting a list of worst possible outcomes isn't proof.

[Palidane]

It certainly hasn't done anything for the Circle mages, who helped Chantry forces against the Dales, against the darkspawn during all the Blights, and against the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches. Thedas history has proven it's short memory with heroic elves when the Grey Warden Prosper wrote of Garahel, "My friend, this elf who helped us unite the lands and cleanse Thedas of the darkspawn scourge will always be remembered. I swear it." The Hero of the Fourth Blight, Garahel, has been forgotten about in present day Thedas (to the point where Duncan basically educates the elven protagonist about this person), and the accomplishments of the Dalish who helped save the world from the Fifth Blight are only remembered for a short time.

Hang on now, I don't think that's very fair. Duncan had to inform an elven Warden of Garahel because that warden was a player who didn't know anything about Thedas, period. It's background exposition, you can't extrapolate that to represent the knowledge of all of Thedas. Garahel is still greatly respected, the Empress' Palace in Val Royeaux has an entire room dedicated to Garahel and the other Grey Wardens in the Fourth Blight.

 

As for the Dalish, we haven't heard much of what's happening in Ferelden anyway. Maybe they did get the land from the Crown and Ferelden is becoming more integrated, we don't know yet. Keep in mind, the Dalish's participation is not certain, you could have killed them all and taken the were-wolves instead.

[Master Warder Z_]

you could have killed them all and taken the were-wolves instead.

 

I did.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I did.

 

[TheJediSaint]

DA needs more werewolves.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

DA needs more werewolves.

 

More Too dumb to live Dalish too.

[Palidane]

I did.

 

 

DA needs more werewolves.

I never would have guessed.

[LobselVith8]

Hang on now, I don't think that's very fair. Duncan had to inform an elven Warden of Garahel because that warden was a player who didn't know anything about Thedas, period. It's background exposition, you can't extrapolate that to represent the knowledge of all of Thedas. Garahel is still greatly respected, the Empress' Palace in Val Royeaux has an entire room dedicated to Garahel and the other Grey Wardens in the Fourth Blight.

 

I don't see that as the case. Despite the player not necessarily knowing about the darkspawn, there's the option to say that it's merely a "dwarven problem", despite not having all the facts; this is also the case with the protagonist having the option to support or condemn blood magic. I don't deny that some people (like Duncan) still remember the Hero of the Fourth Blight, but it generally seems to have been forgotten about by people. I think the scene in the City Elf Origin, where the children don't know about any elven heroes, and the protagonist basically has to make one up in order to give them an example, would support this.

 

As for the Dalish, we haven't heard much of what's happening in Ferelden anyway. Maybe they did get the land from the Crown and Ferelden is becoming more integrated, we don't know yet. Keep in mind, the Dalish's participation is not certain, you could have killed them all and taken the were-wolves instead.

 

I intended it in reference to the outcome for the Dalish who helped during the Fifth Blight, as their heroic feats are forgotten about in time. If the Hinterlands were revoked from Dalish control (for players who had the land gifted to the Dalish as a reward for the actions of the Hero of Ferelden from the Sabrae Clan), I imagine that could be a serious issue for an elven Inquisitor.

 

With the loss of the Hinterlands in that scenario, it could also be a source of distrust for the Dalish protagonist, if the Dalish main character doubts that the Crown will honor any agreement brokered, since they already broke their word once before (in terms of an in-character perspective).

[Beliar86]

If city elves and Dalish elves made a unified society based on free worship and mutual defense it could work. Having a chantry right next to statues of elven gods would prevent an exalted march, and as long as they're not aggressors, only single countries would attack, but with proper training and equipment now in play their standing army of the combined numbers of city and dalish elves would be enough to fight aggressors off.

[Palidane]

I don't see that as the case. Despite the player not necessarily knowing about the darkspawn, there's the option to say that it's merely a "dwarven problem", despite not having all the facts; this is also the case with the protagonist having the option to support or condemn blood magic. I don't deny that some people (like Duncan) still remember the Hero of the Fourth Blight, but it generally seems to have been forgotten about by people. I think the scene in the City Elf Origin, where the children don't know about any elven heroes, and the protagonist basically has to make one up in order to give them an example, would support this.

I'm still not sold. As I recall, all Origins have instances of the Warden asking stupid questions they should know already. I think the Dwarven Noble is the most egregious, but they exist in each.

 

Also, it's important to keep in mind the context of this. Grey Wardens are not super popular in Ferelden because until DAO, there had never been a blight in Ferelden. You might as well ask why Qunari don't know who Archon Hessarian is, or why a shopkeeper in Denerim doesn't know of Fen'Harel. I bet the story of Garahel gets told in campfire tales all the time in the Anderfels or Starkhaven.

 

I intended it in reference to the outcome for the Dalish who helped during the Fifth Blight, as their heroic feats are forgotten about in time. If the Hinterlands were revoked from Dalish control (for players who had the land gifted to the Dalish as a reward for the actions of the Hero of Ferelden from the Sabrae Clan), I imagine that could be a serious issue for an elven Inquisitor.

 

With the loss of the Hinterlands in that scenario, it could also be a source of distrust for the Dalish protagonist, if the Dalish main character doubts that the Crown will honor any agreement brokered, since they already broke their word once before (in terms of an in-character perspective).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've received confirmation on that one way or another. Any of that. This is all speculation.

[Samahl]

@Palidane: Lob also brought up the children whom you have to make up an elven hero for in the city elf origin. Would you dismiss that as well? 

[LobselVith8]

I'm still not sold. As I recall, all Origins have instances of the Warden asking stupid questions they should know already. I think the Dwarven Noble is the most egregious, but they exist in each.

 

Also, it's important to keep in mind the context of this. Grey Wardens are not super popular in Ferelden because until DAO, there had never been a blight in Ferelden. You might as well ask why Qunari don't know who Archon Hessarian is, or why a shopkeeper in Denerim doesn't know of Fen'Harel. I bet the story of Garahel gets told in campfire tales all the time in the Anderfels or Starkhaven.

 

Garahel's feats don't seem to have improved things for the elves in Kirkwall, as a serial killer is able to murder children from the Alienage without any outcry from the human populace. No one seems to treat the elves any differently, and no one brings up Garahel as an example of a hero who should be remembered by the people for his feats during the Fourth Blight. I'm not seeing a stark difference between Kirkwall and Denerim when it comes to how Garahel seems to have been forgotten about, despite uniting the Free Marches and ending the Fourth Blight, or in the perception of elves.

 

As for Starkhaven, Sebastian never brings up Garahel when Fenris points out that humans would have an issue taking orders from an elf, so I'm not so sure that city-state is much different from Kirkwall.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we've received confirmation on that one way or another. Any of that. This is all speculation.

 

That's why I phrased it "if the Hinterlands were revoked".

[Palidane]

@Palidane: Lob also brought up the children whom you have to make up an elven hero for in the city elf origin. Would you dismiss that as well? 

Ehh, that is a bit more thorny, but I still don't think it's damning. There isn't a ton of education happening in the alienages, and Denerim is very far removed from the Fourth Blight, by both time and distance.

[Palidane]

Garahel's feats don't seem to have improved things for the elves in Kirkwall, as a serial killer is able to murder children from the Alienage without any outcry from the human populace. No one seems to treat the elves any differently, and no one brings up Garahel as an example of a hero who should be remembered by the people for his feats during the Fourth Blight. I'm not seeing a stark difference between Kirkwall and Denerim when it comes to how Garahel seems to have been forgotten about, despite uniting the Free Marches and ending the Fourth Blight, or in the perception of elves.

 

As for Starkhaven, Sebastian never brings up Garahel when Fenris points out that humans would have an issue taking orders from an elf, so I'm not so sure that city-state is much different from Kirkwall.

I don't know, you seem to be pretty exclusive here. Sure, there's dozens of times when he could have been mentioned, but how about when he should have been mentioned? What, do you want to hear people talking about the Fourth Blight as you walk down the street? It's not like the humans spend all their time reminiscing about their own heroes.

 

As for Fenris and Sebastian, I think he immediately says Fenris could train elves, which is just a valid response as digging up ancient history, and probably appealed to him more.

That's why I phrased it "if the Hinterlands were revoked".

Is there any evidence of that? I know Gaider said the Mage blessing was revoked, but I haven't heard anything like that for the Dalish.

[LOLandStuff]

Because he was a Grey Warden. It's expected of Grey Wardens to give their lives to stop the Blight.

But then people are still mean and will pick on anyone that's not their own race, but when it comes to saving them they'd be praising the faction they belonged to.

 

And what of the elves who were quick to brush off the guy who gave his life to save his people in favor of some gods who turned their back on them for no good reason other than not being elfy enough.

Andrastians at least admit their douchebaggery was what made the Maker add them to the ignore list.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Is there any evidence of that? I know Gaider said the Mage blessing was revoked, but I haven't heard anything like that for the Dalish.

Alistair does say that he is sorry that the Hinterlands didn't work out for the Dalish. There is however NOTHING to suggest that it was revoked. That is just Lob's imagination craving it to be the humans' fault again.

[LobselVith8]

I don't know, you seem to be pretty exclusive here. Sure, there's dozens of times when he could have been mentioned, but how about when he should have been mentioned? What, do you want to hear people talking about the Fourth Blight as you walk down the street? It's not like the humans spend all their time reminiscing about their own heroes.

 

As for Fenris and Sebastian, I think he immediately says Fenris could train elves, which is just a valid response as digging up ancient history, and probably appealed to him more.

 

I don't think hearing about Garahel once or twice would equate to "people talking about the Fourth Blight as you walk down the street", but it's as though he never existed, so I'm not seeing how the Free Marches are any different than Ferelden. I also think the notion that the dialogue 'should' be placed anywhere is rather subjective, as personal taste can vary as to where it should be placed. As it stands, I'm not seeing anything to indicate that Garahel is still remembered by most people, even in the Free Marches saved by his actions.

 

Also, I think it would've been valid for Sebastian to point out that there's a precedence for humans following an elven commander into battle, if only to show that Garahel's memory is still alive in the Free Marches. As it stands, I'm not under the impression that his memory is still alive among the people.

 

Is there any evidence of that? I know Gaider said the Mage blessing was revoked, but I haven't heard anything like that for the Dalish.

 

It's speculated by some that the Dalish Boon might have been handwaved. Nothing concrete as of yet. I suppose someone could tweet Gaider or Laidlaw for some clarification on the matter.

[Master Warder Z_]

I never would have guessed.

 

Its a complete shock to the system i know.

[Palidane]

I don't think hearing about Garahel once or twice would equate to "people talking about the Fourth Blight as you walk down the street", but it's as though he never existed, so I'm not seeing how the Free Marches are any different than Ferelden. I also think the notion that the dialogue 'should' be placed anywhere is rather subjective, as personal taste can vary as to where it should be placed. As it stands, I'm not seeing anything to indicate that Garahel is still remembered by most people, even in the Free Marches saved by his actions.

 

Also, I think it would've been valid for Sebastian to point out that there's a precedence for humans following an elven commander into battle, if only to show that Garahel's memory is still alive in the Free Marches. As it stands, I'm not under the impression that his memory is still alive among the people.

I think this argument is starting to get away from us.

 

I don't know what criteria you are using, but I would say Garahel is pretty famous. Every educated person knows about him, and everyone else has probably at least heard of him. Like how we treat Alexander the Great, or Napoleon. Sure, people don't mention him constantly, but people know of him and he is held in high regard, whenever the Fourth Blight comes up, which isn't often.

 

It's speculated by some that the Dalish Boon might have been handwaved. Nothing concrete as of yet. I suppose someone could tweet Gaider or Laidlaw for some clarification on the matter.

Then there's nothing really to talk about, I guess. I'm not terribly comfortable bandying about something with so little to back it up. Too often, it falls into "imagined slights", and Lord knows the BSN has enough of that.

[LobselVith8]

I think this argument is starting to get away from us.

 

I don't know what criteria you are using, but I would say Garahel is pretty famous. Every educated person knows about him, and everyone else has probably at least heard of him. Like how we treat Alexander the Great, or Napoleon. Sure, people don't mention him constantly, but people know of him and he is held in high regard, whenever the Fourth Blight comes up, which isn't often.

 

I'm sure that scholars who make a point of studying history know about Garahel, but I'm not so sure everyone else has heard about him. I'm sure people know that the Fourth Blight was ended by a Grey Warden, but I wouldn't be surprised if hardly anyone knew that an elf was responsible for putting an end to the Archdemon Andoral.

 

Then there's nothing really to talk about, I guess. I'm not terribly comfortable bandying about something with so little to back it up. Too often, it falls into "imagined slights", and Lord knows the BSN has enough of that.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of the narrative possibilities to be explored, but I can understand not wanting to approach the topic.

[TK514]

Is there any evidence of that? I know Gaider said the Mage blessing was revoked, but I haven't heard anything like that for the Dalish.

 

http://www.dragonage...the-hinterlands

 

That's the only thing official we have on the Hinterlands currently.  It's a letter to Arl Teagan that states the Hinterlands belongs to Redcliffe.  It's possible that the Dalish boon survived, but we haven't seen anything to suggest that is the case.

[Palidane]

http://www.dragonage...the-hinterlands

 

That's the only thing official we have on the Hinterlands currently.  It's a letter to Arl Teagan that states the Hinterlands belongs to Redcliffe.  It's possible that the Dalish boon survived, but we haven't seen anything to suggest that is the case.

Ok, that's weird. In the Masked Empire, Teagan is still a Bann, and he's acting as an ambassador to Orlais. I'm not quite sure on the timeline, but I don't think there'd be enough time to give him a promotion to Arl of Redcliffe.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Ok, that's weird. In the Masked Empire, Teagan is still a Bann, and he's acting as an ambassador to Orlais. I'm not quite sure on the timeline, but I don't think there'd be enough time to give him a promotion to Arl of Redcliffe.

 

Succession is wonky like that.