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Well, maybe the paranoid leaders of the Dales shouldn't have cut a swath of death and destruction through Orlais because the Chantry was sending Templar bodyguards for their missionaries who were being religiously censored.
The Chantry's mission, by definition, would see Dalish religion annihilated and its mages imprisoned. It is an enemy of the Dalish by default, and I can hardly fault the elves for not wanting to let them in.
The Chantry's mission, by definition, would see Dalish religion annihilated and its mages imprisoned. It is an enemy of the Dalish by default, and I can hardly fault the elves for not wanting to let them in.
The Chantry's mission is for the Chant of Light to be spread all across the world and to all races. The Dales could literally have let the missionaries be and the missionaries would still be doing what they believe will attract the Maker again since that part of the world still has the Chant of Light being sung to it. Besides, who are the leaders to determine what every elf in the Dales should believe in? They have no more right to censor the Chantry than the human nations have to censor the Dalish practices now.
If the new Elven homeland is anything like the Dales or Arlathan of old, I think it better to not exist.
"All the human peasants are fleeing the Dales due to the civil war! Now is the time for the Dalish to strike!"
Yes, strike the location where the entire military might of Orlais is assembled and give them an exterior threat to unite against. This is a brilliant idea, and I fully support it.
The Chantry's mission is for the Chant of Light to be spread all across the world and to all races. The Dales could literally have let the missionaries be and the missionaries would still be doing what they believe will attract the Maker again since that part of the world still has the Chant of Light being sung to it. Besides, who are the leaders to determine what every elf in the Dales should believe in? They have no more right to censor the Chantry than the human nations have to censor the Dalish practices now.
If the new Elven homeland is anything like the Dales or Arlathan of old, I think it better to not exist.
If that was all the missionaries had to do, there'd be no point in converting anyone; I'm fairly sure the idea is that it has to be sung by everyone. And it's less a matter of censoring a religion and more censoring the propaganda of an enemy state; again, their direct agenda with that was the destruction of elven culture. As it is now, the Chantry will not let the Dalish be, and would destroy everything that made the Dalish Dalish if they could.
Of course not. The Dalish can continue to live in the wilds and at the fringes of society and continue to barely get by while they continue to lose more and more of their culture as the Chantry destroys and erodes their way of life. Meanwhile elves in human cities can continue to live in squalor, poverty, and under oppressive rule and continue to live in their marginalized roles in society under the thumb of humans.
I get that not all elves might agree with what an Elven homeland should look like or be like, but the idea that the elves don't "deserve" or "need" a homeland is pretty ridiculous and an insult to a severely disenfranchised people.
Dragon Age, 9:90
Today is a historic day in Thedas. With wisdom and strength, the people of New Elvhenen have established a new nation in the Dales. After the signing of a treaty with Orlesian ambassadors, along with many trade agreements with the Anderfels and Fereldan, the new nation seems to be on the rise with enthusiastic immigration. Many have said that there would never again be an elven nation, but today, many elves have proved that wrong. Many remember the heroes of New Elvhenen battling the demons that plagued locals and thus gained the new nation popularity.
As the elves gathered in the south, a new government was formed, what the elves called a "republic." After a vote, a council was formed to help lead this new nation. However, tensions grew as it was clear that even though the Dalish were the most vocal and well known activists towards a new homeland, they were in the minority and only took a single seat in the new council.
The newly appointed Grand Cleric Victoria has finished her journey to the capital and is eager to start construction of a new cathedral.
(...)
That sounds... familiar... were is that from?
"All the human peasants are fleeing the Dales due to the civil war! Now is the time for the Dalish to strike!"
Yes, strike the location where the entire military might of Orlais is assembled and give them an exterior threat to unite against. This is a brilliant idea, and I fully support it.
You're just saying this because you're looking for any excuse to ship Gaspard and Celene. 
If that was all the missionaries had to do, there'd be no point in converting anyone; I'm fairly sure the idea is that it has to be sung by everyone. And it's less a matter of censoring a religion and more censoring the propaganda of an enemy state; again, their direct agenda with that was the destruction of elven culture. As it is now, the Chantry will not let the Dalish be, and would destroy everything that made the Dalish Dalish if they could.
This was discussed back before the launch of DA:O, and the writers said that the Chantry doesn't really concern themselves with non-believers, heretics and heathens, since the Chantry beleives that as long as the Chant is allowed to be sung, then it will outlast all of them. So if the Dales had allowed the Chantry missionaries in, it would have been the end of it, since the Chantry would have been content with that.
You're just saying this because you're looking for any excuse to ship Gaspard and Celene.
Mm hmm.
I think Solas' words "It's complicated" pretty much sums up the arguments with regard to this.
First, to whom are you giving the Elf Homeland? The Dalish who are isolationists and even despise their fellow elves in the cities, or the City Elves who wish to live somewhere where they can rule themselves and not live in constant fear of their humans neighbours? If anyone deserves their own state I would have said it was the latter. However, their culture has diverged from that of the Dalish to the extent that it is not clear if the two groups could live in harmony, particularly if the Dalish continued to look down disparagingly on their fellow elves who didn't choose to follow the old ways. The Dalish also believe that following the old ways is essential if their gods are ever to return and start supporting them. If you give them a homeland, they will regard this as vindication of their efforts because the gods have finally rewarded them. This is in fact exactly what happened in the Dales, even though it was the efforts of Andraste/her followers and Shartan that brought it about and the latter had definitely converted to faith in the Maker. What if in the new homeland not all elves want to follow the religion of the Creators? What if they want to develop their culture without constantly looking to the past? What if they actually do want to follow their own interpretation of the Chant of Light and revere their mortal heroes, like Shartan, rather than some reconstructed religion of the past and the elven gods that abandoned them to their fate?
Second, what are you going to give them as a homeland? Anywhere that is half decent is already going to be occupied. By this I means somewhere you can live in relative safety from dangerous wildlife, has not got a paper thin Veil and fertile farmland. Because unless the majority of elves are going to live a nomadic lifestyle, they are going to want to establish proper settlements and crow crops. In fact, given the majority of city elves may not even know much about farming, much less about hunter gathering, they are going to need to be able to maintain contact with human neighbours in order to trade for the things they need. Even the Dalish have to currently do this. However, relations with their human neighbours are not going to be very good if the relatives of these humans have just been turfed off their land in favour of the elves. If I recall right the bit of Ferelden that Alistair/Anora gives to the Dalish is down near Ostagar, in other words pretty inhospitable and even then tensions arise with human neighbours, presumably the Chasind who formerly lived there. There is no evidence that the Dalish wanted to do anything more than continue their nomadic lifestyle, free from harassment. Outside of the forests in the south, the fertile lands of the Dales are currently occupied by peasant farmers. What about the injustice to them if you force them off land they have farmed for generations?
I think part of the problem of Thedas is the prevalence of factions which pit one group of people against another. Elves are not all the same, just as humans are not all the same, or dwarfs or even qunari. It would be far better and easier to improve the laws governing all people, so all have the same rights and all can expect the same justice if those rights are violated. I think Briala understood this. She didn't claim the eluvians for all elves, or the Dalish, but for the elves of Orlais. She was trying to get Celene to improve the rights of elves in Orlais but the problem is that she could see Celene was all too willing to surrender those rights in order to maintain her grip on power.
So I would try to improve the rights of elves one nation state at a time but link it to the rights of commoners as a whole, so there is no scope for resentment among the general populace. Then you are only battling the nobility. Not an easy task but much easier if you have the entire general popular opinion behind your efforts.
I'm doubtful, as the Dalish don't make it a practice to force anyone to convert to their religion. You're welcome to join the clan voluntarily, and you're welcome to leave of your own accord.
This was discussed back before the launch of DA:O, and the writers said that the Chantry doesn't really concern themselves with non-believers, heretics and heathens, since the Chantry beleives that as long as the Chant is allowed to be sung, then it will outlast all of them. So if the Dales had allowed the Chantry missionaries in, it would have been the end of it, since the Chantry would have been content with that.
An interesting allegation. I'll ask the writers if it still applies, especially since it seems directly contradicted in places in the games themselves.
First, to whom are you giving the Elf Homeland? The Dalish who are isolationists and even despise their fellow elves in the cities, or the City Elves who wish to live somewhere where they can rule themselves and not live in constant fear of their humans neighbours? If anyone deserves their own state I would have said it was the latter. However, their culture has diverged from that of the Dalish to the extent that it is not clear if the two groups could live in harmony, particularly if the Dalish continued to look down disparagingly on their fellow elves who didn't choose to follow the old ways. The Dalish also believe that following the old ways is essential if their gods are ever to return and start supporting them. If you give them a homeland, they will regard this as vindication of their efforts because the gods have finally rewarded them. This is in fact exactly what happened in the Dales, even though it was the efforts of Andraste/her followers and Shartan that brought it about and the latter had definitely converted to faith in the Maker. What if in the new homeland not all elves want to follow the religion of the Creators? What if they want to develop their culture without constantly looking to the past? What if they actually do want to follow their own interpretation of the Chant of Light and revere their mortal heroes, like Shartan, rather than some reconstructed religion of the past and the elven gods that abandoned them to their fate?
I'm not sure what World of Thedas said, but the apparition of Shartan that we met in the Gauntlet in Origins showed no signs of following the Maker whatsoever, or even of liking Andraste tremendously; he referred to her as "the enemy of our enemy." And your last line strikes me as a bit hilarious, given that the Creators were unwillingly imprisoned by Fen'Harel, and the Maker was the one who just abandoned his creation.
However, I think harmony could be achieved, provided that those followers of other religions wouldn't be trying to destroy the Dalish religion or start locking up their mages.
Second, what are you going to give them as a homeland? Anywhere that is half decent is already going to be occupied. By this I means somewhere you can live in relative safety from dangerous wildlife, has not got a paper thin Veil and fertile farmland. Because unless the majority of elves are going to live a nomadic lifestyle, they are going to want to establish proper settlements and crow crops. In fact, given the majority of city elves may not even know much about farming, much less about hunter gathering, they are going to need to be able to maintain contact with human neighbours in order to trade for the things they need. Even the Dalish have to currently do this. However, relations with their human neighbours are not going to be very good if the relatives of these humans have just been turfed off their land in favour of the elves. If I recall right the bit of Ferelden that Alistair/Anora gives to the Dalish is down near Ostagar, in other words pretty inhospitable and even then tensions arise with human neighbours, presumably the Chasind who formerly lived there. There is no evidence that the Dalish wanted to do anything more than continue their nomadic lifestyle, free from harassment. Outside of the forests in the south, the fertile lands of the Dales are currently occupied by peasant farmers. What about the injustice to them if you force them off land they have farmed for generations?
Receiving stolen property doesn't make the property not stolen. However, I'd prefer reclaiming Arlathan over reclaiming the Dales, and since that land is held by Tevinter, the rest of Thedas will definitely not care about it being lost. They might even be inclined to align with the elves over Tevinter if there'd be some way of taking the forest back, and especially the city (somehow).
I think part of the problem of Thedas is the prevalence of factions which pit one group of people against another. Elves are not all the same, just as humans are not all the same, or dwarfs or even qunari. It would be far better and easier to improve the laws governing all people, so all have the same rights and all can expect the same justice if those rights are violated. I think Briala understood this. She didn't claim the eluvians for all elves, or the Dalish, but for the elves of Orlais. She was trying to get Celene to improve the rights of elves in Orlais but the problem is that she could see Celene was all too willing to surrender those rights in order to maintain her grip on power.
So I would try to improve the rights of elves one nation state at a time but link it to the rights of commoners as a whole, so there is no scope for resentment among the general populace. Then you are only battling the nobility. Not an easy task but much easier if you have the entire general popular opinion behind your efforts.
That leaves no room at all for those elves who don't want to follow an Andrastian lifestyle, and that's why another land is necessary.
And TME explained that all that wandering has caused divergence among the clans. They are growing apart. One meeting of the clans every decade isn't holding them together. They are each growing and changing, becoming less homogeneous.
I don't see how they are growing apart by having variances among the clan; having differences doesn't mean they have irreconcilable differences, or anything of the kind.
I've yet to seean instance where a city elf considered a Dalish to be not a true elf. Just the opposite in fact, Dalish seem to revere them, almost.
You had an entire Origin where some city elves considered the Dalish to be mere "savages", so I have no idea how you go from "savages" to reverence. Pol (a city elf who joins the Sabrae Clan) even mentions some of the derogatory views some in the Alienage have about the Dalish. Also, there were some who regarded elves who tried to leave the Alienage as "flat ears". This is even echoed by one of the hahren Sarethia when he wrote about Alienage Culture, "Here, we're among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who have gone out there, they're stuck. They'll never be human, and they've gone and thrown away being elven, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere."
There are small-minded people in all the groups of Thedas.
The reverse, however, is not true. Lanaya may have been Zathrien's First, but she apparently had to work very hard to gain acceptance into the clan. And my Tabris Warden was still treated with suspicion. And this was supposed to be one of the more accepting clans.
It took time for the clan to accept Lanaya after she won the position of First against several contenders, and as she said, they accepted her in time. The clan also spoke highly of Aneirin, who was a Circle mage they found nearly dead and rescued, and wasn't living among them at the time, as he preferred to be on his own. Pol was welcomed into the Sabrae Clan, and he even explicitly mentions that his reception has been positive. An unnamed Circle mage was welcomed into Ariane's clan.
Also, I don't see why you're surprised that your outsider was met with suspicion. The Dalish are wary of outsiders precisely because outsiders have been a threat to them for centuries. The clan comes to accept the Warden when he demonstrates that he's genuinely there to help, such as helping Elora with the halla, or helping Cammen get together with Gheyna.
Again, The Masked Empire told us that Dalish do sometimes take in other elves, but mainly when they feel they need fresh blood in the clan. Not out of charity or solidarity. They are, in fact, pretty xenophobic. Not without cause, of course.
You brought up an atypical clan who didn't adhere to a number of tenants of the Dalish, including the prohibition against using magic that involved spirits, and tried to use Clan Virnehn as an example of the entirety of the Dalish - that's where you lost me.
Now, back to the actual discussion of the thread - I think that the Andrastian and the Dalish elves certainly deserve a homeland, and while I think there would be some initial friction between the two groups, I could see them making it work in the long.
You honestly believe that? if the Dalish ruled a new elven kingdom they wouldn't tolerate any other religion or ideas besides their own, Andrastian city elves would likely get pressured to convert & either get kicked out or killed if the continually refused, just like they wouldn't tolerate an elf joining their clan who wanted to leave their city but proudly worshipped & believed in the Maker.
Especially considering that there is nothing at all even remotely indicating the Dalish being tolerant of different religions within their clans. Quite the contrary actually.
Especially considering that there is nothing at all even remotely indicating the Dalish being tolerant of different religions within their clans. Quite the contrary actually.
What religions would exist that don't follow a god who wants to imprison their mages, gods who helped destroy Arlathan, or an army that wants to conquer all of Thedas?
What religions would exist that don't follow a god who wants to imprison their mages, gods who helped destroy Arlathan, or an army that wants to conquer all of Thedas?
There is nothing in the Chant that actually calls for the imprisonment of mages. The Circles may be Chantry mandated, but they aren't religiously charged. So you can drop the bullshit.
And what does it matter that the Old Gods were worshipped by the Tevinters? The Dalish would STILL be intolerant of the religion, meaning they are nothing but the intolerant biggots, they claim to fight against.
And a Qunari would never join the Dalish anyway, so that is a moot point.
Well, maybe the paranoid leaders of the Dales shouldn't have cut a swath of death and destruction through Orlais because the Chantry was sending Templar bodyguards for their missionaries who were being religiously censored.
Actually, it read that templars were sent into the Dales as a consequence of kicking out the missionaries and refusing to convert, not that templars accompanied missionaries.
Templars are the militant arm of the Chantry, as their own codex attests to: "Often portrayed as stoic and grim, the Order of Templars was created as the martial arm of the Chantry." Their faith in the Maker is also a primary issue for recruitment, according to their own codex: "In reality, the Chantry's militant arm looks first for skilled warriors with unshakable faith in the Maker, with a flawless moral center as a secondary concern. Templars must carry out their duty with an emotional distance, and the Order of Templars prefers soldiers with religious fervor and absolute loyalty over paragons of virtue who might question orders when it comes time to make difficult choices."
Sending armed and armored soldiers - the militant arm of the Chantry - into a region with followers of a different faith and free mages was certain to cause problems, particularly when the templars view themselves as having "dominion over mages by divine right". It's the reason why the elven Warden can outright condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert.
The least they can do for the people who follow the religion of the woman who freed them from enslavement is to let their missionaries wander around and talk. They don't have to listen if they don't want, but kicking them out and who knows what else to the point the Templars have to serve as bodyguards is messed up.
Andraste and Shartan fought Tevinter, with the support of the humans and elves who committed to their cause to battle the Imperium. That's something people often forget in these discussions. A dream of an elven homeland is even mentioned by the apparition of Shartan in the temple, “It was my dream for the People to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves."
Also, considering Kordillus Drakon I lead a series of Exalted Marches to conquer his neighbors and establish the Orlesian Empire, the apprehension of the elves is completely understandable. As Brother Genitivi wrote, "Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will. The Orlesian Empire became the seat of the Chantry's power, the Grand Cathedral in Val Royeaux the source of the movement that birthed the organized Chantry as we know it today."
In fact, Drakon's desired conquest of the Free Marches was prevented due to his issues with the neighboring Dales, which is precisely the reason he turned to using missionaries. This is another issue you seem to have forgotten in your condemnation of the Dalish in the Dales. Kicking out the missionaries didn't warrant an invasion, if the Dalish historical account is correct.
The elves have the right to follow their own religion, and they shouldn't have to capitulate to human demands to follow the Chantry, then or now. An ideal outcome for an independent Dales would be that the elves wouldn't have to adhere to following the Andrastian faith if they don't want to.
There is nothing in the Chant that actually calls for the imprisonment of mages. The Circles may be Chantry mandated, but they aren't religiously charged. So you can drop the bullshit.
And what does it matter that the Old Gods were worshipped by the Tevinters? The Dalish would STILL be intolerant of the religion, meaning they are nothing but the intolerant biggots, they claim to fight against.
And a Qunari would never join the Dalish anyway, so that is a moot point.
I'm sure tension with the Dalish would be lessened quite a bit, then, if the Chantry dropped the idea that all mages need to be in Circles; that was one of the cardinal reasons for the Dalish to never stay in one place for too long.
As for the Old Gods, it's not a matter of them just being worshiped by the Tevinter people; they actually intervened directly in the conquest of Arlathan, granting enhanced magic to the magisters. Or so both Tevinter and the elves believe.
If they can take one, they "deserve" it.
If they can keep one, they "deserve" it.
Empires rise and fall and people recede into history. It happens. While I can't say what the writers will do (since they can "do" anything) - I can tell you I wouldn't believe staring into mirrors and incessant whining is going to get them one.
Also - I'd destroy a few less of my own clans with magic if I wanted unity.
The elves have the right to follow their own religion, and they shouldn't have to capitulate to human demands to follow the Chantry, then or now. An ideal outcome for an independent Dales would be that the elves wouldn't have to adhere to following the Andrastian faith if they don't want to.
But the question is: what if they want to? Apart from the Grey Wardens, freedom of religion doesn't exist in any Thedosian organization. Also, for that to be decided, who will rule?
If they can take one, they "deserve" it.
If they can keep one, they "deserve" it.
Empires rise and fall and people recede into history. It happens. While I can't say what the writers will do (since they can "do" anything) - I can tell you I wouldn't believe staring into mirrors and incessant whining is going to get them one.
Yeah, the word "deserve" is meaningless in the face of history.
There have been arguments for and against an elven homeland. From the plight of the oppressed to the dangers of ethno-nationalism, there's enough in real life to have arguments for each side. In the end, does Orlais deserve an Empire? Does Tevinter deserve to exist today? Does Ferelden deserve to have a kingdom? Do the Qunari deserve to have Par Vollen? In the end, frontiers are for those who can defend them. So the question is: can the elves defend them in the long run?
I'm sure tension with the Dalish would be lessened quite a bit, then, if the Chantry dropped the idea that all mages need to be in Circles; that was one of the cardinal reasons for the Dalish to never stay in one place for too long.
If the Templars do not pursue the Dalish, then that is evidence they don't care enough about their mages to hassle themselves and force the issue.
But they also don't want free mages near human cities, thank you very much.
Do they really need one they have been surpressed for many centuries lost the dales if they got it back what would they do with it just gonna lose it again I may sound cruel but it's the truth city elves and dalish elves don't get along thoughts ?
IMO, the Dalish have been nomads for far too long. They think they want a stable home but I think many of them would still choose to travel around. If anything, the city Elves would gravitate to the new homeland far more than the Dalish and they'll most likely turn it into another ghetto. I'd be really surprised if the Dalish and City elves were able to live together in peace considering how up their own buttholes the Dalish are. The question I would ask myself is if this is worth making an enemy out of a powerful empire? Nope.
If the city elves truly wanted to get out of the thumb of humans then they need to stop being their servants and head out to join the Dalish in a life free of human rule. However, if he Dalish were strong enough to take back their homeland they would have done it ages ago. Instead they just sit in the woods telling stories about former glories and evil humans. I'm not seeing how betting on them against Orlais is a sound investment.
If the elves are already the majority within the Dales, elevating one of their kind to noble status and allowing him to rule over it in the name of the Emperor/Empress could work.
Of course, that would require removing states and titles from humans and giving them to elve which would anger the nobility.
The noble lord of Halamshiral is on Celene's side so, maybe Gaspard could defeat her with the help of the Dales, remove the estate of the treacherous curr who defied his rightful Emperor and give it to the more loyal elves.
Mistic: "Can the elves defend them in the long run."
To that I would answer a resounding "No."
My snarky comment as to "why" comes from Sten, as I think he's totally accurate. They're a: "lithe, pointy eared people who excel at poverty."
However, my real answer would fault the Dalish entirely. The Dalish are a backward people. Not because they embrace nature, but because they are literally always looking backward. The Eluvians are not an answer to their problems, ancient elvish history is not an answer to their problems, old prejudices and myths based on how the bad humans took away our special status isn't an answer to their problems.
The city elves would likely have a far more advanced view on how to deal with humans and how to live in the modern Thedosian world. I think it would be they, and not the Dalish, that would have a far greater chance at nation building.
Again, the writers can do anything they want.
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