2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You're the one making the positive claim that the Dalish did make it illegal. The burden of proof is on you. Until you can provide more evidence to back up your claim, it will remain unconvincing.

I do have evidence. The Dales kicked all the missionaries out. You don't do that if you're okay with the religion. 

 

If you want more detail, the Dales are a mageocracy. The Chantry thinks magic should not rule over people. Thus a threat to the leaders of the Dales' power. So they see the Chantry as sowing dissent. I'm sure they'd be cool with letting that be legal. 

[Samahl]

I do have evidence.

Dales kicked all the missionaries out. You don't do that if you're okay with the religion.
Plus they are a mageocracy, while the Chantry thinks magic should not rule over people. Thus a threat to the leaders' power.

Restating the same, singular piece of evidence along with some unfalsifiable speculation isn't going to automatically increase the validity of your claim.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Restating the same, singular piece of evidence along with some unfalsifiable speculation isn't going to automatically increase the validity of your claim.

Hence me explaining the probably thought process of the Dalish leaders in my edit. 

[Icy Magebane]

I do have evidence. 

 

Dales kicked all the missionaries out. You don't do that if you're okay with the religion. 

Plus they are a mageocracy, while the Chantry thinks magic should not rule over people. Thus a threat to the leaders' power.

So the Chantry should be allowed to enter a known "mageocracy" in order to spread a faith that is admittedly a threat to the leaders' power... but the Dalish are somehow acting out of order by opposing the spread of a religion that is intolerant of their chosen form of government...  that's an obvious double standard.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So the Chantry should be allowed to enter a known "mageocracy" in order to spread a faith that is admittedly a threat to the leaders' power... but the Dalish are somehow acting out of order by opposing the spread of a religion that is intolerant of their chosen form of government...  that's an obvious double standard.

When did I say the Dalish couldn't spread their faith? They can spread it to whoever is willing to listen for all I care. But like how people don't like the Dalish religion being outlawed, to which I agree it shouldn't, I don't like how the Dalish seem to do the same thing. 

[Icy Magebane]

When did I say the Dalish couldn't spread their faith? They can spread it to whoever is willing to listen for all I care. 

The ancient Dalish had no need or desire to spread their faith.  They simply did not want the Andrastian faith to be spread amongst their people, as one of the basic premises of said faith is the imprisonment of mages.  If their government was ruled by mages, Andrastians were a huge threat to security.  How was it wrong for them to not want them inside their borders?

 

edit:  typos...

[Samahl]

Hence me explaining the probably thought process of the Dalish leaders in my edit.

That is exactly the speculation I'm referring to. There is very little information on this period of time. Without context, we are at a loss to accurately guess either group's mindset.

Honestly, at this point, discussion about what really happened with the Dales is fruitless. Until we can confirm the true events of that time period, I suggest abandoning this particular thread of discourse.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The ancient Dalish had no need or desire to spread their faith.  They simply did not want the Andrastian faith to be spread amongst their people, as one of the basic premises of said faith is the imprisonment of mages.  If their government was ruled by mages, Andrastians were a huge threat to security.  How was it wrong for them to not want them inside their borders?

 

edit:  typos...

Why do the leaders of the Dales get the say over their people in what they are allowed to believe in? 

 

As for it not being wrong, then by that logic the nations that follow the Chantry are not wrong in outlawing the worship of the Elven Pantheon. 

[Icy Magebane]

That is exactly the speculation I'm referring to. There is very little information on this period of time. Without context, we are at a loss to accurately guess either group's mindset.

Honestly, at this point, discussion about what really happened with the Dales is fruitless. Until we can confirm the true events of that time period, I suggest abandoning this particular thread of discourse.

It really is just speculation at this point... there's no actual proof of what happened or why certain events occurred.  I just don't like the implication that the Dalish were somehow obligated to allow missionaries into their borders, when the Chanty forbids mages from being free of Templar supervision.  How could this not be seen as a threat?

[Icy Magebane]

Why do the leaders of the Dales get the say over their people in what they are allowed to believe in? 

 

As for it not being wrong, then by that logic the nations that follow the Chantry are not wrong in outlawing the worship of the Elven Pantheon. 

It becomes wrong when those nations attempt to convert others.  I am not willing to tell any government what laws they can and cannot pass.  That is between themselves and their citizens.  However, I do not think that this gives them the right to enforce their religious beliefs beyond the borders of their nations...  By all accounts that is what happened before the fall of the Dales.  Missionaries of a harmful religion have no business forcing themselves upon their neighbors.  After being driven out once, they come back with armed soldiers?  And that's perfectly fine in your eyes?

 

I suppose that means that the Dalish of today would be legally bound by any law that proclaims a national religion.  All the more reason to stop living as wanderers and work out a permanent solution to their situation.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It becomes wrong when those nations attempt to convert others.  I am not willing to tell any government what laws they can and cannot pass.  That is between themselves and their citizens.  However, I do not think that this gives them the right to enforce their religious beliefs beyond the borders of their nations...  By all accounts that is what happened before the fall of the Dales.  Missionaries of a harmful religion have no business forcing themselves upon their neighbors.  After being driven out once, they come back with armed soldiers?  And that's perfectly fine in your eyes?

 

I suppose that means that the Dalish of today would be legally bound by any law that proclaims a national religion.  All the more reason to stop living as wanderers and work out a permanent solution to their situation.

So you approve of religious censorship is what I'm getting from this, as long as it is kept in house?

And no, I see nothing wrong with sending bodyguards to protect missionaries from following their obligations to their religion. I'm more concerned with what the Dales did that garnered the approval of the added protection. And I'd feel the same way if the the roles were reversed and the Dales sent Emerald Knights to protect Dalish missionaries after being kicked out of Orlais. 

 

I agree. The Elves need a nation of their own. I just hope it is one for all elves, not just the followers of the Dalish. 

[Icy Magebane]

So you approve of religious censorship is what I'm getting from this, as long as it is kept in house?

I approve of governments and their citizens determining their laws.  That's the end of my thoughts on the subject.

 

And no, I see nothing wrong with sending bodyguards to protect missionaries from following their obligations to their religion. I'm more concerned with what the Dales did that garnered the approval of the added protection. And I'd feel the same way if the the roles were reversed and the Dales sent Emerald Knights to protect Dalish missionaries after being kicked out of Orlais. 

Of course you are.  You seem to be completely unwilling to recognize the Chantry's obvious flaws, starting with the fact that the missionaries had no business returning to a place they weren't welcome.  Bringing up a hypothetical situation and saying that you would agree with the Dalish if they behaved in a similar way is meaningless.  It didn't happen that way and the Dalish have never shown any inclination towards spreading their religion to humans.  Comparisons like this have to be grounded in reality to mean anything.

 

I agree. The Elves need a nation of their own. I just hope it is one for all elves, not just the followers of the Dalish. 

Well, in spite of our differences regarding the Chantry, I think it's good we can agree on that much.

[Tevinter Rose]

Why would the Chantry feel obligated to send missionaries to the Dales in the first place? That seems incredibly pushy.

[Icy Magebane]

Why would the Chantry feel obligated to send missionaries to the Dales in the first place? That seems incredibly pushy.

Out of likes, but good point.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I approve of governments and their citizens determining their laws.  That's the end of my thoughts on the subject.

We have yet to have a government in Thedas do that. They are either monarchies or at best oligarchies. None of them have the common people have any real say. That is wrong in my opinion. 

[Icy Magebane]

We have yet to have a government in Thedas do that. They are either monarchies or at best oligarchies. None of them have the common people have any real say. That is wrong in my opinion. 

The people agree to be ruled by monarchs... they are free to rebel at any time if they disagree with laws.  This is how democracy was born.

 

Oh, and I added some stuff to my post... I was kind of taken aback by that statement so I rushed out an answer prematurely...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why would the Chantry feel obligated to send missionaries to the Dales in the first place? That seems incredibly pushy.

Because it is part of their faith to spread the Chant of Light to all four corners of the world and to all races so the Maker will turn his gaze on the world again. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The people agree to be ruled by monarchs... they are free to rebel at any time if they disagree with laws.  This is how democracy was born.

 

Oh, and I added some stuff to my post... I was kind of taken aback by that statement so I rushed out an answer prematurely...

But why would the people of the Dales rebel? The Dales were made isolationist, so they knew no other way but what their leaders told them. 

 

Which post? 

[Icy Magebane]

Because it is part of their faith to spread the Chant of Light to all four corners of the world and to all races so the Maker will turn his gaze on the world again. 

...

 

But that's the whole point.  The Chantry's faith cannot coexist with others in its current form.  It needs to be willing to allow other faiths to exist without the need to overshadow them.  Otherwise, how can missionaries of a faith like this not be seen as a threat?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

...

 

But that's the whole point.  The Chantry's faith cannot coexist with others in its current form.  It needs to be willing to allow other faiths to exist without the need to overshadow them.  Otherwise, how can missionaries of a faith like this not be seen as a threat?

It never says all people have to be singing the Chant. It just has to be heard everywhere and by everyone. Basically imagine every town in the world having a Chantry building. That's what they're after. Or at least that's how I've always interpreted it. Future lore evidence may prove me wrong, but until then...

[Icy Magebane]

But why would the people of the Dales rebel? The Dales were made isolationist, so they knew no other way but what their leaders told them. 

 

Which post? 

The one you took that quote from.  I added my responses to the rest of your post after I'd already responded with that line.

 

Again you are only focusing on the Dalish... listen, my opinion is that any law that proclaims a national religion is not my business unless it happens in my country.  Any such law, IMO, must be an agreement between the people of a country and their rulers, whoever they may be.  The idea that monarchs have unlimited power is called into question by the fact that no king can indefinitely survive rebellion.  Any society, real or fictional, that does not exist in a state of perpetual rebellion, has reached a state at which the people and government have reached an implicit agreement.  Do you follow?  This is all in response to your claim that I support religious censorship.  That is false.  What I support is the rights of others to choose their own path, regardless of what I think.  My opinions are only applicable to what my own government does.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The one you took that quote from.  I added my responses to the rest of your post after I'd already responded with that line.

 

Again you are only focusing on the Dalish... listen, my opinion is that any law that proclaims a national religion is not my business unless it happens in my country.  Any such law, IMO, must be an agreement between the people of a country and their rulers, whoever they may be.  The idea that monarchs have unlimited power is called into question by the fact that no king can indefinitely survive rebellion.  Any society, real or fictional, that does not exist in a state of perpetual rebellion, has reached a state at which the people and government have reached an implicit agreement.  Do you follow?  This is all in response to your claim that I support religious censorship.  That is false.  What I support is the rights of others to choose their own path, regardless of what I think.  My opinions are only applicable to what my own government does.

Ah, okay. It didn't show the edit until like a moment ago. 

 

I wasn't saying you supported it. I was asking if you supported it since parts of your posts sounded like such. Sorry if it seemed I was accusing you of it. 

 

Of course you are.  You seem to be completely unwilling to recognize the Chantry's obvious flaws, starting with the fact that the missionaries had no business returning to a place they weren't welcome.  Bringing up a hypothetical situation and saying that you would agree with the Dalish if they behaved in a similar way is meaningless.  It didn't happen that way and the Dalish have never shown any inclination towards spreading their religion to humans.  Comparisons like this have to be grounded in reality to mean anything.

Not really. I see the Chantry being just as flawed as any other faction in the DA universe. For example I don't agree with the current Circle system and hope to change that in Inquisition. But them following their beliefs of simply spreading said belief to those willing to listen is not a flaw, unless you consider the Dalish wanting to spread the Elven Pantheon belief to City Elves a flaw. 

 

And the comparison isn't meaningless. I'm sure there were elves who lived outside of the Dales, and Orlais was just an example of such a place. If the Dales wanted to convert those elves but the humans in charge said no and kicked them out, I would understand them bringing protection when they tried again. 

 

 

Well, in spite of our differences regarding the Chantry, I think it's good we can agree on that much.

 

Yes, we can agree on that. Though some thing apparently I don't want my favorite DA race to have a homeland, which is weird. 

[Tevinter Rose]

Hmm, now I'm starting to wonder if there is any Chantry organization (outside of the Circles) in Thedas where an elf has a position of authority

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Hmm, now I'm starting to wonder if there is any Chantry organization (outside of the Circles) in Thedas where an elf has a position of authority

Elves are allowed to be priests/priestesses and Templars. 

[Icy Magebane]

It never says all people have to be singing the Chant. It just has to be heard everywhere and by everyone. Basically imagine every town in the world having a Chantry building. That's what they're after. Or at least that's how I've always interpreted it. Future lore evidence may prove me wrong, but until then...

This by itself is not a problem.  The problem arises when you look at the Chantry as a whole.  While the philosophy behind the Chant of Light is harmless, the Templars are not.  The Circle of Magi is not.  The reality is that the Chantry has many faces, and not all of them are pleasant.  So long as they adhere to the principle that "magic must serve man and never rule over him," they are free to justify the imprisonment of mages.  Any society that does not also imprison mages is in direct conflict with the Chantry's militant arm...

 

Of course, now that the Chantry has lost control of the Templars, it's possible that some changes could occur.  I'm not sure what those changes will be, but the history of the Chantry thus far has not been peaceful...