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But that's the whole point. The Chantry's faith cannot coexist with others in its current form. It needs to be willing to allow other faiths to exist without the need to overshadow them. Otherwise, how can missionaries of a faith like this not be seen as a threat?
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This by itself is not a problem. The problem arises when you look at the Chantry as a whole. While the philosophy behind the Chant of Light is harmless, the Templars are not. The Circle of Magi is not. The reality is that the Chantry has many faces, and not all of them are pleasant. So long as they adhere to the principle that "magic must serve man and never rule over him," they are free to justify the imprisonment of mages. Any society that does not also imprison mages is in direct conflict with the Chantry's militant arm...
Of course, now that the Chantry has lost control of the Templars, it's possible that some changes could occur. I'm not sure what those changes will be, but the history of the Chantry thus far has not been peaceful...
After the mage templar stuff is sorted out maybe the Chantry will get its own reform movement. Some Thedas version of Martin Luther could get it going. I think reform is the best way for the Chantry to evolve.
I wasn't saying you supported it. I was asking if you supported it since parts of your posts sounded like such. Sorry if it seemed I was accusing you of it.
No problem at all.
Not really. I see the Chantry being just as flawed as any other faction in the DA universe. For example I don't agree with the current Circle system and hope to change that in Inquisition. But them following their beliefs of simply spreading said belief to those willing to listen is not a flaw, unless you consider the Dalish wanting to spread the Elven Pantheon belief to City Elves a flaw.
And the comparison isn't meaningless. I'm sure there were elves who lived outside of the Dales, and Orlais was just an example of such a place. If the Dales wanted to convert those elves but the humans in charge said no and kicked them out, I would understand them bringing protection when they tried again.
I see this more as a survival mechanism that could eventually be phased out if the Dalish ever manage to settle down somewhere. Right now, they don't have time to deal with religious infighting in addition to hunting, avoiding humans, dealing with hostile wildlife, etc. The life of a Dalish is not an easy one, and I'm not willing to accept that every aspect of their current culture must be present in a hypothetical new elven nation. The only problem is that unless the Dalish and City Elves work together, one group or the other will likely claim responsibility for their success... so it's a tricky situation all around.
Yes, we can agree on that. Though some thing apparently I don't want my favorite DA race to have a homeland, which is weird.
The elves are in a precarious position and there is no easy answer... even though we seem to agree in theory, I can understand why we have trouble coming to an agreement on how to unify such culturally distinctive groups. At least you are interested in a positive outcome for the elves, which is more than I can say for some.
Elves are allowed to be priests/priestesses and Templars.
I haven't seen any elven priest/priestesses or Templars in the game. Maybe they're in the books or comics, I wouldn't know. Its just kinda sad to me how the Chantry doesn't seem to wanna help city elves by giving them jobs in the church or at least help out in the alienages.
After the mage templar stuff is sorted out maybe the Chantry will get its own reform movement. Some Thedas version of Martin Luther could get it going. I think reform is the best way for the Chantry to evolve.
I should hope so. It would be a waste if the only possible outcome was a return to the status quo, or a minor, relatively superficial change.
I haven't seen any elven priest/priestesses or Templars in the game. Maybe they're in the books or comics, I wouldn't know. Its just kinda sad to me how the Chantry doesn't seem to wanna help city elves by giving them jobs in the church or at least help out in the alienages.
Well, the female elf you save from having molten gold poured on her in Sebastian's Act 2 quest(can't remember her name sorry) sends you a letter in Act 3 saying that she has joined a Chantry in another city and is now a Sister. It even has Sister in front of her name.
As for Templars, yeah so far they haven't had any actual examples though both Gaider and Laidlaw say they exist, just are rare. In fact, Evangeline in Dragon Age: Asunder was almost an elf.
No problem at all.
Good. I thought we have been having a very civil discussion so didn't want that to spoil it. 
I see this more as a survival mechanism that could eventually be phased out if the Dalish ever manage to settle down somewhere. Right now, they don't have time to deal with religious infighting in addition to hunting, avoiding humans, dealing with hostile wildlife, etc. The life of a Dalish is not an easy one, and I'm not willing to accept that every aspect of their current culture must be present in a hypothetical new elven nation. The only problem is that unless the Dalish and City Elves work together, one group or the other will likely claim responsibility for their success... so it's a tricky situation all around.
Hopefully. Unless the two to three main factions of elves(Andrastrian City Elves, Dalish Elves, and Tevinter Slave Elves) who would be part of this aren't able to at least go "You believe what you want as long as you let me believe what I want" in terms of culture and religion, then they'll collapse before another nation has to do anything.
The elves are in a precarious position and there is no easy answer... even though we seem to agree in theory, I can understand why we have trouble coming to an agreement on how to unify such culturally distinctive groups. At least you are interested in a positive outcome for the elves, which is more than I can say for some.
I understand as well. And as you said at least we both want the same thing: the elves to not be mistreated.
Good. I thought we have been having a very civil discussion so didn't want that to spoil it.
Hopefully. Unless the two to three main factions of elves(Andrastrian City Elves, Dalish Elves, and Tevinter Slave Elves) who would be part of this aren't able to at least go "You believe what you want as long as you let me believe what I want" in terms of culture and religion, then they'll collapse before another nation has to do anything.
I understand as well. And as you said at least we both want the same thing: the elves to not be mistreated.
I'm going to be honest with you... I think that if the Chantry and Circles are separated, then the Chant of Light would be a completely acceptable presence within a nation made of the former City, Dalish, and Tevinter elves. The only actual problem is the divine duty that Templars have to control mages. If this can be eliminated, then there is no inherent religious conflict. Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I've always thought that the Chant itself isn't the problem... it's the fact that it can easily be abused by unscrupulous individuals. Maybe if the Chantry no longer insists on controlling mages, a theoretical elven nation could be just like any other nation that has multiple religions and cultures... there's no need for one of them to dominate the others.
And yes, civil discussion is always refreshing... especially when we have the same overall goal. 
I'm going to be honest with you... I think that if the Chantry and Circles are separated, then the Chant of Light would be a completely acceptable presence within a nation made of the former City, Dalish, and Tevinter elves. The only actual problem is the divine duty that Templars have to control mages. If this can be eliminated, then there is no inherent religious conflict. Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I've always thought that the Chant itself isn't the problem... it's the fact that it can easily be abused by unscrupulous individuals. Maybe if the Chantry no longer insists on controlling mages, a theoretical elven nation could be just like any other nation that has multiple religions and cultures... there's no need for one of them to dominate the others.
And yes, civil discussion is always refreshing... especially when we have the same overall goal.
I feel that way about a lot of the factions, especially the religious ones. The creed/religion isn't bad. The institution is where the problems are.
I don't recall any law forbidding elves from owning. There probably just aren't that many elves who can afford it. Besides, that women's husband might have been a serf, not a landowner. Or maybe he was human.Hey, I'm just happy there is a place where an elf is treated as equal to a human commoner, as in allowed land to farm. That's great progress right there.
One culture always dominates, usually the more numerous one. And then, of course, there are other issues. For instance, what if City Elves don't want free mages? They are Andrastean, after all. What if the Dalish see human culture itself as counterproducent to the goal of restoring immortality and the Creators? In facto given how there are many more city elves than dalish, Val Royeaux alone has around ten thousand, they could see the CE population as a threat to restoring elven culture if they don't converteu.I'm going to be honest with you... I think that if the Chantry and Circles are separated, then the Chant of Light would be a completely acceptable presence within a nation made of the former City, Dalish, and Tevinter elves. The only actual problem is the divine duty that Templars have to control mages. If this can be eliminated, then there is no inherent religious conflict. Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I've always thought that the Chant itself isn't the problem... it's the fact that it can easily be abused by unscrupulous individuals. Maybe if the Chantry no longer insists on controlling mages, a theoretical elven nation could be just like any other nation that has multiple religions and cultures... there's no need for one of them to dominate the others.
And yes, civil discussion is always refreshing... especially when we have the same overall goal.
The elven religion is far worse than the Chantry when it comes to inclusivity. It focuses entirely on elves to the point that the other races may as well not exist at all. At least the Chantry has the whole "All races are the work of the Maker" thing.
Elves can become Templars and sisters/brothers in the Chantry. Celene was in talks with the Divine to open up the priesthood to elven women.I haven't seen any elven priest/priestesses or Templars in the game. Maybe they're in the books or comics, I wouldn't know. Its just kinda sad to me how the Chantry doesn't seem to wanna help city elves by giving them jobs in the church or at least help out in the alienages.
The elven girl you save on Sebastian's mission from having molten gold poured over her later sends Hawke a letter saying she has become a Sister in Starkhaven.
http://dragonage.wik..._Sister_Arielle
Yes...A government outlawing a religion to protect its own power is wrong. Not to mention, I doubt they would have considered it a threat if the missionaries weren't finding converts. So they were actively suppressing their own people's ability to choose their own religion (Rather hypocritical, considering that the founder of the Dales, Shartan, was a Disciple of Andraste himself)So the Chantry should be allowed to enter a known "mageocracy" in order to spread a faith that is admittedly a threat to the leaders' power... but the Dalish are somehow acting out of order by opposing the spread of a religion that is intolerant of their chosen form of government... that's an obvious double standard.
Yes...A government outlawing a religion to protect its own power is wrong. Not to mention, I doubt they would have considered it a threat if the missionaries weren't finding converts. So they were actively suppressing their own people's ability to choose their own religion (Rather hypocritical, considering that the founder of the Dales, Shartan, was a Disciple of Andraste himself)
A nation has the right to decide who is or is not allowed to enter its borders, and a religious institution does not, so far as I'm aware, have the right to just ignore that.
Not arguing about that, just putting down the delusion that the Dalish are any more inclusive or tolerant than the Chantry.A nation has the right to decide who is or is not allowed to enter its borders, and a religious institution does not, so far as I'm aware, have the right to just ignore that.
Not arguing about that, just putting down the delusion that the Dalish are any more inclusive or tolerant than the Chantry.
Incorrect. The Dalish have never captured and then forcibly converted an entire nation's population.
Are we continueing to ignore that lack of evidence that missionaries entered the Dales, after they were kciked out the first time?
Incorrect. The Dalish have never captured and then forcibly converted an entire nation's population.
Because they never had opportunity? 
Not really, there isn't. City Elves and Dailish Elves aren't that different. Both persecuted, both elves, both share mutual hatred with humanity, both try to remember their past despite being hybrid human culture. The only difference is their religion and location.
Of course there is. The City Elves aren't up their own asses about how great and noble their culture is and how the world would be a better place without those filhty shems.
The City elves deal with real oppression. The Dalish bring a disproportionate amount of their trouble on themselves.
No but they did invade one and put the heart of its religion to the torch. Not to mention forbid the conversion of any of their own people to the faith of their founder.Incorrect. The Dalish have never captured and then forcibly converted an entire nation's population.
Are we continueing to ignore that lack of evidence that missionaries entered the Dales, after they were kciked out the first time?
Well, we have to consider, between an isolationist nation that really doesn't want to get human cooties on one side, and an expansionist nation and religion on the other, which one was really more likely to make the first move.
No but they did invade one and put the heart of its religion to the torch. Not to mention forbid the conversion of any of their own people to the faith of their founder.
After several military provocations from said religion. And there's no evidence that they forbade conversion.
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