2113 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Dat victim complex tho! Where would the Dalish be without their victim complex?

Mah Dales! Never forget!

[Xilizhra]

Who care if his wife and kids are there? Acceptable sacrifices.
Ah, so self-defense requires you to burn the home of your attacker to the ground.

They didn't; World of Thedas states the elves only reached the gates of Val Royeaux. Evidence that they'd burn the whole city is also nil.

[Ianamus]

 

Because the Dalish are doing so with those who are already converting to them willingly (and the evidence that the Dalish force city elves to follow their religion is nil), and not violating border security to attack the foundations of a sovereign government.

 

How could any elf convert to the chantry willingly if the Dalish foced all chantry missionaries from their borders? Missionaries don't tie people down and force them to change religion, they just preach. If the Dalish kicked them out they obviously didn't want any elves converting, willingly or not.

[MisterJB]

They didn't; World of Thedas states the elves only reached the gates of Val Royeaux. Evidence that they'd burn the whole city is also nil.

The World of Thedas does not specifically state they failed in their siege while other canon DA sources claims they suceeded.

Regardless, they clearly tried to destroy the capital city of Orlais. That is not self-defense.

[LOLandStuff]

Ah, so self-defense requires you to burn the home of your attacker to the ground.

Who cares if his wife and kids are there? Acceptable sacrifices.

 

 

I'm sure they had it coming.

That family must've given them some shifty looks. It must've hurt their feelings or something...They got depressed...

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Mah Dales! Never forget!

 

WHHEEEEEEEERE ARE MAH DALES!?!?!

[Xilizhra]

How could any elf convert to the chantry willingly if the Dalish foced all chantry missionaries from their borders? Missionaries don't tie people down and force them to change religion, they just preach. If the Dalish kicked them out they obviously didn't want any elves converting, willingly or not.

There doesn't seem to be any proof that this was the reason, as opposed to the missionaries being agents of a foreign expansionist power.

 

 

The World of Thedas does not specifically state they failed in their siege while other canon DA sources claims they suceeded.

Regardless, they clearly tried to destroy the capital city of Orlais. That is not self-defense.

"At the gates" is extremely different from "burned down." And they tried to defeat the source of the military provocations and border violations that started this conflict to begin with; the alternative would have just been letting it happen forever until they were worn down.

[MisterJB]

I'm sure they had it coming.

That family must've given them some shifty looks. It must've hurt their feelings or something...They got depressed...

One elven life is worth a thousand humans because they used to be immortal and ****.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

One elven life is worth a thousand humans because they used to be immortal and ****.

 

Filthy Mon'keigh.... I mean shems!

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ah, so self-defense requires you to burn the home of your attacker to the ground.

Who cares if his wife and kids are there? Acceptable sacrifices.

Well to be honest chantry and orlais did that as well hell every country in thedas did that.

[MisterJB]

And they tried to defeat the source of the military provocations and border violations that started this conflict to begin with; the alternative would have just been letting it happen forever until they were worn down.

 

And that is not self-defense. It's war!

Self-defense would be ramping up border patrols, extablish ouposts that would allow them to watch and preemptively attack groups if they intended to come to the Dales with harmful intentions in their heart, etc.

Attacking your enemy's capital is war, plain and simple.

 

Also, you have zero evidence that there were any military provocation and borders violations beyond some missionaries.

On the other hand, we know for a fact, elves sacked cities like Montsimmard.
 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

And that is not self-defense. It's war!

Self-defense would be ramping up border patrols, extablish ouposts that would allow them to watch and preemptively attack groups if they intended to come to the Dales with harmful intentions in their heart, etc.

Attacking your enemy's capital is war, plain and simple.

 

Also, you have zero evidence that there were any military provocation and borders violations beyond some missionaries.

On the other hand, we know for a fact, elves sacked cities like Montsimmard.
 

 

But Xil sees the Dalish as whichever group he self-identifies with IRL! That means they can do no wrong if it is against those filthy human scum!

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The World of Thedas does not specifically state they failed in their siege while other canon DA sources claims they suceeded.
Regardless, they clearly tried to destroy the capital city of Orlais. That is not self-defense.

Old lore sources do say that the elves eventually sacked the capital, but since WoT deliberately seems to replace any reference to it with something more vague (with the rest of the story the same) it makes me suspect Bioware may have changed their minds

[Ianamus]

There doesn't seem to be any proof that this was the reason, as opposed to the missionaries being agents of a foreign expansionist power.

 

Did the humans particuarly want the Dales? Even now it hardly seems to be a particuarly valuable and sought after region. There aren't even that many people there, Halamshiral is descirbed as being mostly elven with a few humans.

 

Shartran and the elves were still a major part of the chant of light at this time, so it's hardly as if the religion was irrelevant to them. Wasn't it Andrastae herself who gave the elves this land to being with?

[Xilizhra]

And that is not self-defense. It's war!

Self-defense would be ramping up border patrols, extablish ouposts that would allow them to watch and preemptively attack groups if they intended to come to the Dales with harmful intentions in their heart, etc.

Attacking your enemy's capital is war, plain and simple.

 

Also, you have zero evidence that there were any military provocation and borders violations beyond some missionaries.

On the other hand, we know for a fact, elves sacked cities like Montsimmard.
 

And you in turn have zero evidence that they didn't do any of the preceding, which just failed to work for some reason. The fundamental truth about this conflict is that very little of it is actually known; what is known is that the end result was the annihilation of the Dales and the forcible conversion of its population, aside from those who fled.

 

 

Did the humans particuarly want the Dales? Even now it hardly seems to be a particuarly valuable and sought after region. There aren't even that many people there, Halamshiral is descirbed as being mostly elven with a few humans.

 

Shartran and the elves were still a major part of the chant of light at this time, so hardly as if the religion was irrelevant to them. Wasn't it Andrastae herself who gave the elves this land to being with?

Which makes it even more likely that it was because of Orlais and not Andrastianism.

[Ianamus]

 

Which makes it even more likely that it was because of Orlais and not Andrastianism.

 

It seems far more likely to me that the reason for attempting to spread the chantry to the elves was religious, not political. The chantry belived that Andrastae gave the elves those lands, so it makes sense that they would want to spread her religion to them.

 

If anything the fact that the elves were still a major part of the chant implies that human-elven relations were not that bad, and that it was the kicking out of missionaries and refusal to help the humans during the blight that soured that relationship, both of which were more the fault of the elves than the humans.

[Xilizhra]

It seems far more likely to me that the reason for attempting to spread the chantry to the elves was religious, not political. The humans belived that Andrastae gave the elves these lands, so it makes sense that they would want to spread her religion to them.

 

If anything the fact that the elves were still a major part of the chant implies that human-elven relations were not that bad, and that it was the kicking out of missionaries and refusal to help the humans during the blight that soured that relationship, both of which were more the fault of the elves than the humans.

Revising religious texts can take ages; the fact that the Chantry hadn't gotten around to removing Shartan is not strong evidence that relations were ever good.

[Ianamus]

Revising religious texts can take ages; the fact that the Chantry hadn't gotten around to removing Shartan is not strong evidence that relations were ever good.

 

They were certainly good at the time of Andrastae, and definately far better than they are now. Shartran and the elves were only removed from the chant because of the exalted march on the dales.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They didn't; World of Thedas states the elves only reached the gates of Val Royeaux. Evidence that they'd burn the whole city is also nil.

Just like the evidence suggesting that the Chantry caused the provocations that made the Dales initiate a war.............

[Xilizhra]

They were certainly good at the time of Andrastae, and definately far better than they are now. Shartran and the elves were only removed from the chant because of the exalted march on the dales.

Shartan's apparition in the Gauntlet implies that they weren't actually good, and that Andraste was simply the enemy of the elves' enemy.

 

 

Just like the evidence suggesting that the Chantry caused the provocations that made the Dales initiate a war.............

Actually, the Dalish account suggests that.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Shartan's apparition in the Gauntlet implies that they weren't actually good, and that Andraste was simply the enemy of the elves' enemy.

 

 

Actually, the Dalish account suggests that.

I wouldn't be quick in trusting spirits there as they even manifest as peoples that are possible alive like jowan or leske not to mention our party. 

[LOLandStuff]

Shartan's apparition in the Gauntlet implies that they weren't actually good, and that Andraste was simply the enemy of the elves' enemy.

 

 

Actually, the Dalish account suggests that.

 

 

Of course she was an enemy, she was human after all. Duuuh!!!

 

And Dalish account is pfff as long as it's QQ worthy.

[MisterJB]

And you in turn have zero evidence that they didn't do any of the preceding, which just failed to work for some reason.

You are making the claim they exhausted all options and thus it is you that must present proof.

[Xilizhra]

You are making the claim they exhausted all options and thus it is you that must present proof.

Actually, if this is about some sort of resolution about whether to condemn the Dales or not, I would think that you would have to present proof of the crime.

[MisterJB]

Shartan's apparition in the Gauntlet implies that they weren't actually good, and that Andraste was simply the enemy of the elves' enemy.

Shartan converted to the worship of the Maker.