2113 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Actually, if this is about some sort of resolution about whether to condemn the Dales or not, I would think that you would have to present proof of the crime.

They attacked human cities well away from their borders.

There, proof.

[Xilizhra]

Shartan converted to the worship of the Maker.

Which says nothing conclusive about his views on race relations. It doesn't even say that he stopped believing in the Creators.

[Xilizhra]

They attacked human cities well away from their borders.

There, proof.

Insufficient. For your condemnation to work and for the Dales to be proven guilty, you'd need to prove that the Dalish failed to exhaust all other options.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Actually, the Dalish account suggests that.

The Dalish account is made centuries after it actually happened and by a known racist who has no actual knowledge of events.

 

Evidence count: still zero.

[Xilizhra]

The Dalish account is made centuries after it actually happened and by a known racist who has no actual knowledge of events.

 

Evidence count: still zero.

I freely admit that the true events of the conflict, what precipitated it and how it went, cannot be known. All that is truly known is how it ended, as both sides agree on it.

[MisterJB]

Insufficient. For your condemnation to work and for the Dales to be proven guilty, you'd need to prove that the Dalish failed to exhaust all other options.

No, I don't because attacking cities of your neighbor is not self-defense.

Besides, I' not saying they're guilty. I'm saying they didn't act in self-defence.

 

In a court, it's the defendant that needs to provide evidence he had no other choice, not the other way around.

[LOLandStuff]

 

Which says nothing conclusive about his views on race relations. It doesn't even say that he stopped believing in the Creators.

 

 

He believes the Creators are jerks and that the Maker is a cool dude.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I freely admit that the true events of the conflict, what precipitated it and how it went, cannot be known. All that is truly known is how it ended, as both sides agree on it.

But there is actual evidence that supports the commonly accepted story. There is zero evidence that actually supports the claims of some Dalish Hahren.

[Xilizhra]

No, I don't because attacking cities of your neighbor is not self-defense.

Besides, I' not saying they're guilty. I'm saying they didn't act in self-defence.

 

In a court, it's the defendant that needs to provide evidence he had no other choice, not the other way around.

I'm fairly sure presumption of innocence is still in effect; it's the state's job to prove that the defendant committed a crime.

[MisterJB]

I'm fairly sure presumption of innocence is still in effect; it's the state's job to prove that the defendant committed a crime.

 

They sacked human cities. Therein is the crime.

If you want to claim there were extenuating circunstancies that demanded they do so in order to protect legally protected rights, then you are the one who must present proof.

[Xilizhra]

They sacked human cities. Therein is the crime.

If you want to claim there were extenuating circunstancies that demanded they do so in order to protect legally protected rights, then you are the one who must present proof.

As humans don't recognize elven rights, that task is sadly futile.

 

Oh well. I take heart in knowing that we've never been railroaded into working against elven interests before, and there's no reason that DAI would start now.

[AresKeith]

Incorrect. The Dalish have never captured and then forcibly converted an entire nation's population.

Seeing as you need to be an elf and convert to their religion to join their clans.....

[AresKeith]

Old lore sources do say that the elves eventually sacked the capital, but since WoT deliberately seems to replace any reference to it with something more vague (with the rest of the story the same) it makes me suspect Bioware may have changed their minds

Only way to find out is to ask the devs

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Seeing as you need to be an elf and convert to their religion to join their clans.....

 

It's amazing, they manage to combine snobish elitism with abject poverty!

[TheJediSaint]

It's amazing, they manage to combine snobish elitism with abject poverty!

It's called division of labor.  The Dailish do the snobbery while the City Elves do the poverty.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

There is actually not much to me suggest the elves sacked cities (aside from Red Crossing). Montsimmard is always described as "captured" and Val Royeaux might not have happened.

[LobselVith8]

They attacked human cities well away from their borders.

There, proof.

 

So the elves retaliated against an empire that they claim invaded their borders and tried to force them all to convert... I'm still waiting for the indisputable proof to condemn them. Wanting to dismantle a threat to their freedom to worship the Creators and their self-governance isn't sufficient to me. We're well aware that the Dales and Orlais have had issues since Kordillus Drakon's reign, with those issues preventing Drakon's conquest of the Free Marches and leading to the utilization of the missionaries to spread the influence of his religious organization.

 

No, I don't because attacking cities of your neighbor is not self-defense.

Besides, I' not saying they're guilty. I'm saying they didn't act in self-defence.

 

In a court, it's the defendant that needs to provide evidence he had no other choice, not the other way around.

 

If the elves are retaliating against an enemy that they know wants to force them to convert and conquer their kingdom, then it can be argued as self-defense to make certain they aren't in a position to destroy the Elvhen, especially when this isn't the first time problems have arisen between the two nations.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

It's called division of labor.  The Dailish do the snobbery while the City Elves do the poverty.

 

Truly they are an enlightened society!

 

They actually managed to get the humans to take over their underclass! Brilliant!

[myahele]

It not really a matter of need, but if they have the ability/ strength to get a homeland.

In the end, you need to be strong in order to seize and defend territory in thedas and the real world.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

It not really a matter of need, but if they have the ability/ strength to get a homeland.

In the end, you need to be strong in order to seize and defend territory in thedas and the real world.

 

Guess the Elves are never going to get a homeland.

 

Humanity! F*** yeah!

[Heimdall]

So the elves retaliated against an empire that they claim invaded their borders and tried to force them all to convert... I'm still waiting for the indisputable proof to condemn them. Wanting to dismantle a threat to their freedom to worship the Creators and their self-governance isn't sufficient to me. We're well aware that the Dales and Orlais have had issues since Kordillus Drakon's reign, with those issues preventing Drakon's conquest of the Free Marches and leading to the utilization of the missionaries to spread the influence of his religious organization.


If the elves are retaliating against an enemy that they know wants to force them to convert and conquer their kingdom, then it can be argued as self-defense to make certain they aren't in a position to destroy the Elvhen, especially when this isn't the first time problems have arisen between the two nations.

Paranoia doesn't make it self defense.

[LobselVith8]

Paranoia doesn't make it self defense.

 

True. Retaliating against an invading force that is trying to force them to convert, on the other hand, makes it self-defense.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So the elves retaliated against an empire that they claim invaded their borders and tried to force them all to convert... I'm still waiting for the indisputable proof to condemn them. Wanting to dismantle a threat to their freedom to worship the Creators and their self-governance isn't sufficient to me. We're well aware that the Dales and Orlais have had issues since Kordillus Drakon's reign, with those issues preventing Drakon's conquest of the Free Marches and leading to the utilization of the missionaries to spread the influence of his religious organization.

 

 

If the elves are retaliating against an enemy that they know wants to force them to convert and conquer their kingdom, then it can be argued as self-defense to make certain they aren't in a position to destroy the Elvhen, especially when this isn't the first time problems have arisen between the two nations.

A claim which has no basis in reality or is supported by facts. Orlais has had NO previous inclination towards invasion of the Dales. On the contrary Orlais was trying t oexpand north AWAY from the Dales, yet the Dales kept bothering Orlais along the borders, putting a stop to Drakon's dreams of northern conquest. So even back then it was the Dales who initiated conflict. Later they merely sat back and watched as Montsimamrd, and later most of the world, burned at the hands of the Darkspawn. And lastly they attacked Red Crossing after a few months of border skirmishes with Orlais. All of this points towards Dalish aggression.

 

The ONLY thing that points towards Chantry/Orlais aggression is one bitter old racist who was not even born, his parents weren't even born, who claims events went by differnetly.

 

So what we are left with is a mountain of evidence suggesting Elven aggression. And a claim from an old man saying otherwise.

[Icy Magebane]

One culture always dominates, usually the more numerous one. And then, of course, there are other issues. For instance, what if City Elves don't want free mages? They are Andrastean, after all. What if the Dalish see human culture itself as counterproducent to the goal of restoring immortality and the Creators? In facto given how there are many more city elves than dalish, Val Royeaux alone has around ten thousand, they could see the CE population as a threat to restoring elven culture if they don't converteu.

I believe I was pretty clear when I said that the Chantry would need to change it's stance on mages before their religion could be successfully incorporated into a new elven nation.  Even though I've already explained why numerous times, that part should be obvious.  If we are going to assume that no compromise can be reached and that neither side can possibly relax in their stance, then of course it won't work.  It would be better for the Dalish and City Elves to independently find solutions to their problems if sharing an elven homeland it's just going to lead to more fighting...

[LobselVith8]

The Dalish account is made centuries after it actually happened and by a known racist who has no actual knowledge of events.

 

Evidence count: still zero.

 

The Chantry historical account is written after the war transpired, and I could certainly speculate about how tolerant Sister Petrine is when she spends time on a historical account using rumor and hearsay to vilify the elves for following their own gods, and not the Maker. You're also using conjecture about Keeper Gisharel as fact.

 

A claim which has no basis in reality or is supported by facts.

 

You say that as though there's any evidence to support the Chantry historical account over the Dalish historical account, when there isn't.

 

Orlais has had NO previous inclination towards invasion of the Dales. On the contrary Orlais was trying t oexpand north AWAY from the Dales, yet the Dales kept bothering Orlais along the borders, putting a stop to Drakon's dreams of northern conquest. 

 

Actually, that line seemed to read that Drakon wasn't able to successfully invade the Dales, and therefore he couldn't risk expanding north into the Free Marches. Considering Drakon's Exalted Marches against the rest of his neighbors, I'm not so sure anything would have stopped him from continuing to expand his empire south into the Dales, aside from an inability to do so because of the elves.

 

 Later they merely sat back and watched as Montsimamrd, and later most of the world, burned at the hands of the Darkspawn. 

 

You mean the Emerald Knights who were at the border of the Dales didn't help Orlais specifically. Orlais does not constitute "the world". The fable of the scorpion and the frog comes to mind. We don't even have any evidence that any of the human nations petitioned them for aid.

 

And lastly they attacked Red Crossing after a few months of border skirmishes with Orlais. All of this points towards Dalish aggression.

 

Which may have been in retaliation to humans invading the Dales to force conversion to the Andrastian faith, which would mean it wasn't unprovoked, and the town could have been the staging area for the humans who were invading the elven kingdom.

 

The ONLY thing that points towards Chantry/Orlais aggression is one bitter old racist who was not even born, his parents weren't even born, who claims events went by differnetly.

 

So what we are left with is a mountain of evidence suggesting Elven aggression. And a claim from an old man saying otherwise.

 

By "mountain of evidence", you mean nothing but conjecture and your preference for the Chantry historical account.