2113 réponses à ce sujet

[LOLandStuff]

@Medhia_Nox

 

Dalish just want a place to hoard.

[Mistic]

If the elves are already the majority within the Dales, elevating one of their kind to noble status and allowing him to rule over it in the name of the Emperor/Empress could work.

Of course, that would require removing states and titles from humans and giving them to elve which would anger the nobility.

The noble lord of Halamshiral is on Celene's side so, maybe Gaspard could defeat her with the help of the Dales, remove the estate of the treacherous curr who defied his rightful Emperor and give it to the more loyal elves.

 

Didn't Celene suggest something similar to the Dalish and, more important, to Briala? It would be the perfect time for that. After all, whoever wins the civil war will probably transfer lands and titles from their enemies to their allies. Maybe that could provide a way for the elves to get more rights in DA:I.

 

The city elves would likely have a far more advanced view on how to deal with humans and how to live in the modern Thedosian world.  I think it would be they, and not the Dalish, that would have a far greater chance at nation building.

 

That seems to be Briala's opinion at the end of The Masked Empire.

[Roamingmachine]

Yes, they need a homeland. While nationalism in all its forms is a vile poison, the humans of thedas have clearly demonstrated their utter lack of willingness to live with the elves. Untill humanity gets the kicking it so utterly deserves and comes to its senses, the best solution is a fortified state for the elves.

[DRTJR]

The major stumbling block would be most Elves are City Elves, Andrastien Elves believing in the Maker. So whatever Elven state rises from will probably have less religious tensions outside of Elfland, but more internal strife.

[LobselVith8]

But the question is: what if they want to? Apart from the Grey Wardens, freedom of religion doesn't exist in any Thedosian organization. Also, for that to be decided, who will rule?

 

The kingdom of Rivain has a mix of humans who follow different faiths: the Natural Order, the Andrastian Chantry, and the Qun. I don't think it's impossible for the Dalish, the Andrastians, and the Qunari to make it work. I'm not pretending it would be easy, but I think that in the long run, they could make it succeed. All of the elves have an interest in self-determination, so I don't have the pessimistic attitude about their chances that some others have.

 

As for who will govern the Dales, perhaps it can be leaders from among these groups, who have leadership experience and can work with other leaders towards building a future for the Elvhen. It would be the first time the elves have had a real opportunity to actually build towards a real future, rather than struggling to survive in impoverished ghettos or in clans against hostile humans.

 

Didn't Celene suggest something similar to the Dalish and, more important, to Briala? It would be the perfect time for that. After all, whoever wins the civil war will probably transfer lands and titles from their enemies to their allies. Maybe that could provide a way for the elves to get more rights in DA:I.

 

Celene proposed "honorary lordship", rather than any genuine authority over the Dales.

 

Briala also figured out that Celene would compromise any intention of helping the elves if her power was threatened, so I'd rather see the elves gain the land, instead of putting any faith in Celene or Gaspard. The elves should have the opportunity to stand on their own feet, not be at the mercy of the person sitting on the throne of Orlais.

 

That seems to be Briala's opinion at the end of The Masked Empire.

 

Briala wants to establish a pan-elven network of Andrastian and Dalish elves to help all the elves. Furthermore, both sides are in the same uncomfortable position of having to struggle to live, albeit in different circumstances. The city elves mainly live in Alienages that are quartered off from the rest of the city and the Dalish live in clans; I'm fairly certain both groups would make a good effort at nation building, despite neither one being given the chance to accomplish anything of the kind since the fall and occupation of the Dales.

[Icy Magebane]

I think that some people are placing too much value on the problems that religious differences might cause.  IMO religion doesn't mean a whole lot when you can be executed at any time without a trial because some other elf who lives in your alienage offended a human lord.  It's smarter for all elves to band together and take their chances than sit around waiting for humanity to grow a conscience.  You have to also keep in mind that right now, the Circles are in disarray, so an elven rebellion might also benefit from a large number of skilled elven mages who have no interest in Andraste or returning to the Circles.  This is really the best time to rebel...  once the events of Inquisition are over, things are just going to go back to the way there were, and nothing will have changed... so why not try?

[Zanallen]

I see a lot of people in this thread saying that they think the elves should revolt and retake the Dales while all of the humans are busy fighting. Isn't that kind of what lead to them losing the Dales in the first place? The elves are developing a knack for attempting to exploit potentially world ending conflicts.

[Icy Magebane]

I see a lot of people in this thread saying that they think the elves should revolt and retake the Dales while all of the humans are busy fighting. Isn't that kind of what lead to them losing the Dales in the first place? The elves are developing a knack for attempting to exploit potentially world ending conflicts.

The alternative is to wait for humans to realize that murder, torture, racism, discrimination, and rape are wrong... does that really seem like a good idea to anybody considering they haven't made any progress in several centuries?  Drastic times call for drastic measures.  Humans will probably not be this disorganized again for a few hundred years, so now is the best time to make a move...

[LobselVith8]

I see a lot of people in this thread saying that they think the elves should revolt and retake the Dales while all of the humans are busy fighting. Isn't that kind of what lead to them losing the Dales in the first place? The elves are developing a knack for attempting to exploit potentially world ending conflicts.

 

Neither historical account claims the elves exploited any "world ending" conflict. Both sides have different versions for the inception of the war between elves and humans during the time the Dales was an independent nation: the Dalish claimed humans invaded their kingdom due to their refusal to convert, while the Chantry claimed the elves attacked Red Crossing for no reason.

[In Exile]

There is a huge difference between the elves having a country, i.e., a place where they are no longer an exploited and tortured minority but rather a (substantial) majority with opportunity, standing, power, wealth, etc.  and, say, the Dalish having a racially pure state with a state run religion based on incredibly xeonophobic and offensive views. 

 

These are not the same thing. 

 

Which is part of the issue here; some people have no issue with the elves being subservient to humans, in a society where no one cares if a group of women are abducted in broad daylight or if children are being murdered by a serial killer, or with the elves of the Alienages living at the mercy of humans, in a situation where purges are legal, even against children of an orphanage.

 

If the shoe was on the other foot, they'd likely be clamoring for the humans to have their own homeland.

 

Many of us have serious issues with this, but xenophobic nationalism and a dream of a racially pure utopia is still a problem. 

[In Exile]

Elves coming into a homeland where they can live without fear of being killed en mass in purges (like the one in Denerim and Halamshiral), where the elves can strive to be more than mere servants, where the Dalish can follow their faith without persecution, where they can work to build a bright future for the Elvhen. I don't see this as abhorrent - not in the least.

 

What happens with Elves who want to remain Andrastians, and what the freedom to proselytize to others that they should convert away from Dalish religious rituals? What happens with Elves who argue for greater integration with the rest of Thedas, including economic and diplomatic ties? What happens to elves who argue for the wholesale abolishment of the Dalish mode of governance - councils of elders and unelected Keepers - versus some other form of government? 

 

You talk about the elves being "free" - but they're free in exactly the way CEs are free with the Dalish: they're free to convert or starve. 

[Samahl]

Many of us have serious issues with this, but xenophobic nationalism and a dream of a racially pure utopia is still a problem. 

 

The fear of this seems far stronger than the actual chances of it occurring.

[LobselVith8]

There is a huge difference between the elves having a country, i.e., a place where they are no longer an exploited and tortured minority but rather a (substantial) majority with opportunity, standing, power, wealth, etc.  and, say, the Dalish having a racially pure state with a state run religion based on incredibly xeonophobic and offensive views. 

 

These are not the same thing.

 

All I've seen so far is people either condemning the notion of an elven nation, or supporting a pan-elven kingdom where all the elves can govern themselves without facing the rampant abuses that all elven groups have dealt with for centuries.

 

Many of us have serious issues with this, but xenophobic nationalism and a dream of a racially pure utopia is still a problem. 

 

I don't see a problem in supporting the elves gain a homeland that would be a safe haven for them. A place where purges don't take place is sufficient enough for me, regardless of your flamboyant wording to vilify the notion of a nation where elves wouldn't be subservient to humans.

[Icy Magebane]

What happens with Elves who want to remain Andrastians, and what the freedom to proselytize to others that they should convert away from Dalish religious rituals? What happens with Elves who argue for greater integration with the rest of Thedas, including economic and diplomatic ties? What happens to elves who argue for the wholesale abolishment of the Dalish mode of governance - councils of elders and unelected Keepers - versus some other form of government? 

 

You talk about the elves being "free" - but they're free in exactly the way CEs are free with the Dalish: they're free to convert or starve. 

I don't see it as inevitable that these conflicts would turn into irreconcilable differences.  What evidence is there to suggest that a unified elven nation could not agree on a system of government that equally represents the traditional Dalish views and the more modern City Elf veiws?  Why would a large number of former city elves even be interested in trampling over the traditions of the Dalish and the outright abolishment of thier culture?  I mean... isn't this a little too specific for a mere hypothetical?  It could just as easily not happen that way...

 

You don't even need to look at Earth to see evidence of multiple religions and cultures successfully existing within a single nation... the Free Marches is basically the same setup, aside from being 100% Andrastian (but that's to be expected since they are all human).  They share a common goal of maintaining independence, and will work together if need be, but at the end of the day they respect the other city-states' individual cultures and traditions.  It's been that way for a long time, too...

[LobselVith8]

What happens with Elves who want to remain Andrastians, and what the freedom to proselytize to others that they should convert away from Dalish religious rituals? What happens with Elves who argue for greater integration with the rest of Thedas, including economic and diplomatic ties? What happens to elves who argue for the wholesale abolishment of the Dalish mode of governance - councils of elders and unelected Keepers - versus some other form of government? 

 

I already addressed in a previous post (on this same page) that I think the elves can have representation from three main elven groups that would likely populate an independent elven nation: Dalish, Qunari, Andrastian. The kingdom of Rivain has a similar mix of humans with different faiths, and they certainly managed to exist. I've also suggested that an independent Dales would forge a treaty with the neighboring nation of Ferelden.

 

The human nations have proven intolerant towards the elves for the better part of a millennia, and some of us have expressed that we think the elves should have their own homeland. There would certainly be trials and tribulations, but in the long run, I think the elves could make it work.

 

You talk about the elves being "free" - but they're free in exactly the way CEs are free with the Dalish: they're free to convert or starve. 

 

The Dalish are a group who focus on adhering to their cultural and religious beliefs, they aren't a pan-elven movement. The prospect of an elven kingdom for all the elves would be another matter entirely; I think the extravagant Orlesian elves, the death-dealing Antivan elves, the devout Anders elves, the Circle mages, the Qunari elves, and the Dalish elves can establish a home where the elves can govern themselves, and finally build a real future for the Elvhen.

[Tevinter Rose]

I think that andrastian and dalish elves definitely can unite because they both have a common enemy they have to constantly deal with. Their religious differences would cause some tension but as long as the andrastians don't try to arrest the dalish mages and the dalish don't try to force creator worship on the city elves it wold be minimal. Having a counsel with a group of leaders from the clans and the city would probably be the best way to govern. With a new homeland of course there will be problems and it will be rough when they start out, all countries go through growing pains, but i don't think that should stop them from even getting their own country in the first place. It may take a long time, decades even, for their homeland to become stable, establish trade and form alliances, but someone has to start somewhere because the status quo is not a viable alternative. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

I already addressed in a previous post (on this same page) that I think the elves can have representation from three main elven groups that would likely populate an independent elven nation: Dalish, Qunari, Andrastian. The kingdom of Rivain has a similar mix of humans with different faiths, and they certainly managed to exist. I've also suggested that an independent Dales would forge a treaty with the neighboring nation of Ferelden.

 

The human nations have proven intolerant towards the elves for the better part of a millennia, and some of us have expressed that we think the elves should have their own homeland. There would certainly be trials and tribulations, but in the long run, I think the elves could make it work.

 

The Dalish are a group who focus on adhering to their cultural and religious beliefs, they aren't an pan-elven movement. The prospect of an elven kingdom for all the elves would be another matter entirely; I think the extravagant Orlesian elves, the death-dealing Antivan elves, the devout Anders elves, the Circle mages, the Qunari elves, and the Dalish elves can establish a home where the elves can govern themselves, and finally build a real future for the Elvhen.

First of all, actual Qunari Elves would have NO INTEREST AT ALL in moving to a new Elven country. The only way Qunari Elves would move there is if they were sent there, or if they were no longer actually Qunari.

 

Secondly, Rivain is one of the weakest, if not the weakest, of the human nations, and one of the only reasons that they aren't being conquered by one of their neighbors is probably that all of them are too busy fighting eachother. The weak nature of Rivain society is not something to aspire to.

 

Thirdly, unless the Elves find some place unpopulated by humans, they are inevitably going to have to forcibly uproot human settlements. This will not exactly endear the new Elven nation to the human nations, and the diplomatic tensions would be high from the start. Then of course the weak coherence in the Elven nation itself would lead to even more fracturing, which would signal the human nations that the Elven nation was weak and ripe for conquest.

 

Fourth, the Elvhen can go suck a fat one. What people should care about are the ELVES, not some Dalish idea of what Elves should be.

[Gervaise]

Look I'm very pro-elf.   I usually play elves.   I think the elves are treated abominably practically everywhere.   I very much doubt the majority deserved to lose the Dales in the first place owing to the actions of their leaders/nobility.    The gift of the Dales as a homeland was very much a debt of honour and the Chantry are well aware of that or that wouldn't have conveniently struck Shartan out of the Chant of Light.

 

However, that said, the Dales are not unoccupied.    Either the elves would have to accept humans within their sovereign territory and agree to treat them fairly, or these people are going to be displaced.    The people who will suffer are not the nobility in their fancy palaces but the ordinary commoners.    They do not choose their leaders.   They get treated almost as badly as the elves when it comes to the "Game".   (If you doubt this see Masked Empire).    They also have little rights when it comes to the activities of the Cheveliers (see DAO).   Actually these people who live outside the cities might well be much fairer towards the elves than their urban counterparts, provided the elves reciprocated.   They do not deserve to be pushed off their land just because someone higher up decides they would like to make a noble gesture or has pangs of conscience about the elves.   If they resist are you going to turn round and butcher them because they "rebelled" or herd them together and force them into shanty towns on the edge of big cities?      

 

So any elven homeland is going to have to respect the rights of the people already on the land, whatever race they may be.

[Icy Magebane]

Thirdly, unless the Elves find some place unpopulated by humans, they are inevitably going to have to forcibly uproot human settlements. This will not exactly endear the new Elven nation to the human nations, and the diplomatic tensions would be high from the start. Then of course the weak coherence in the Elven nation itself would lead to even more fracturing, which would signal the human nations that the Elven nation was weak and ripe for conquest.

 

The Fereldens benefit from the elves conquering the Dales because they would no longer have to fear chevaliers on their boarder.  Orlais is a big enough threat that I doubt they will cling to xenophobia and immediately attack a group that's willing to place itself directly between them and their most bitter enemies.  Furthermore, I don't see any reason for the Fereldens to object to the city elves clearing out of the slums in waves and leaving the country.  They don't want them there in the first place.  Tbh I don't see any reason for Ferelden to oppose this invasion...  The other human kingdoms are too far away from the Dales to matter.

[Icy Magebane]

However, that said, the Dales are not unoccupied.    Either the elves would have to accept humans within their sovereign territory and agree to treat them fairly, or these people are going to be displaced.    The people who will suffer are not the nobility in their fancy palaces but the ordinary commoners.    They do not choose their leaders.   They get treated almost as badly as the elves when it comes to the "Game".   (If you doubt this see Masked Empire).    They also have little rights when it comes to the activities of the Cheveliers (see DAO).   Actually these people who live outside the cities might well be much fairer towards the elves than their urban counterparts, provided the elves reciprocated.   They do not deserve to be pushed off their land just because someone higher up decides they would like to make a noble gesture or has pangs of conscience about the elves.   If they resist are you going to turn round and butcher them because they "rebelled" or herd them together and force them into shanty towns on the edge of big cities?

These same commoners directly benefit from the oppression of elves and have done nothing to reform their cultural and legal practices.  They are as much a part of the problem as the nobility.  Comparing poor humans to Thedosian elves is a bit of a stretch...  humans in Thedas have more rights than elves, regardless of their social standing.

 

Having pangs of conscience from time to time is a nice thing, but when generations of people don't act on those guilty feelings and several hundreds years pass without a change to the status quo, then it becomes rather irrelevant.

[Feybrad]

They shall submit to the Qun.

[LobselVith8]

First of all, actual Qunari Elves would have NO INTEREST AT ALL in moving to a new Elven country. The only way Qunari Elves would move there is if they were sent there, or if they were no longer actually Qunari.

 

I don't agree with that. The Rivaini who follow the Qun don't adhere to it in the same way as the Kossith who are Qunari, as they still have their seers; there could be variances in terms of how the elves follow the Qun. It would be a mistake to assume that all Qunari elves are the same.

 

Secondly, Rivain is one of the weakest, if not the weakest, of the human nations, and one of the only reasons that they aren't being conquered by one of their neighbors is probably that all of them are too busy fighting eachother. The weak nature of Rivain society is not something to aspire to.

 

There isn't any mention that the people in Rivain are currently fighting amongst each other, not even in the World of Thedas. And you seem to be making an assumption about the kingdom's strength, which we really can't gauge with any sincerity one way or another without actual information from the developers addressing this.

 

Thirdly, unless the Elves find some place unpopulated by humans, they are inevitably going to have to forcibly uproot human settlements. This will not exactly endear the new Elven nation to the human nations, and the diplomatic tensions would be high from the start. Then of course the weak coherence in the Elven nation itself would lead to even more fracturing, which would signal the human nations that the Elven nation was weak and ripe for conquest.

 

The humans are fleeing the Dales en mass in Asunder due to the civil war, so it seems that it could be a viable option as an elven homeland, especially given that it already had a high elven population to begin with (outnumbering the humans before the Orlesian civil war started).

 

Fourth, the Elvhen can go suck a fat one. What people should care about are the ELVES, not some Dalish idea of what Elves should be.

 

People have spoke in civility about the prospect of a pan-elven nation, where all the elves can have a home.

[Dabrikishaw]

To finally answer the topic question, I'd say elves need a place where the majority of them can live without being subjugated to Human laws and racism. This wouldn't stop any elves(Dalish or City) who choose not to live there from staying in Human populated places, or even joining the Qun. I think the point here should be less "Give all Elves a homeland", and more "Give all Elves more choices where to live".

[Icy Magebane]

People have spoke in civility about the prospect of a pan-elven nation, where all the elves can have a home.

You know, this is a good point.  The Dalish tend to be at the forefront of this discussion because of their refusal to submit to humanity.  That doesn't mean that they will attempt to unilaterally dominate the government, culture, and religion of whatever nation the elves eventually create (if it even happens, that is).  They are merely the vanguard of change, but because they are militaristic by necessity, I suppose it's difficult to avoid viewing them as domineering with respect to any other elven groups... 

 

I think it's important to remember why the Dalish cannot tolerate weakness or division among the clan, and why anyone who desires to join the clan must prove that they won't be a burden or negative social influence.  One major conflict between Dalish and City Elves is the latter's submission to humans.  If the two "factions" work together in a massive rebellion, the Dalish would have no reason to view them as cowards...  by that same token, City Elves who are fed up and actually find the courage to fight back will see the value in what the Dalish have been doing for generations, removing the misconception that they are savages.  IMO these are the real reasons why the two groups do not respect one another...

[Mistic]

There isn't any mention that the people in Rivain are currently fighting amongst each other, not even in the World of Thedas. And you seem to be making an assumption about the kingdom's strength, which we really can't gauge with any sincerity one way or another without actual information from the developers addressing this.

 

I think the part about "fighting each other" is about their neigbours (Tevinter and Qunari, I suppose), not the Rivaini themselves.

 

That said, internally, Rivain is a weak kingdom. WoT states explicitly that the Andrastian upper class has to compromise because they don't have other choice, since the majority of the population is not like them. And what happened after the Qunari Wars was horrible.