2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Tevinter Rose]

You know, this is a good point.  The Dalish tend to be at the forefront of this discussion because of their refusal to submit to humanity.  That doesn't mean that they will attempt to unilaterally dominate the government, culture, and religion of whatever nation the elves eventually create (if it even happens, that is).  They are merely the vanguard of change, but because they are militaristic by necessity, I suppose it's difficult to avoid viewing them as domineering with respect to any other elven groups... 

 

I think it's important to remember why the Dalish cannot tolerate weakness or division among the clan, and why anyone who desires to join the clan must prove that they won't be a burden or negative social influence.  One major conflict between Dalish and City Elves is the latter's submission to humans.  If the two "factions" work together in a massive rebellion, the Dalish would have no reason to view them as cowards...  by that same token, City Elves who are fed up and actually find the courage to fight back will see the value in what the Dalish have been doing for generations, removing the misconception that they are savages.  IMO these are the real reasons why the two groups do not respect one another...

 

In the process of working and fighting together they could grow to mutually respect each other.

[Mistic]

What if there is actually a main quest in DA:I to have an independent elven nation, but Bioware forces you to choose between the Dalish or the City Elves to rule it? I've been fearing a scenario like that since Felassan explained the differences of class in Arlathan to Briala.

[CrimsonN7]

Yes they do, damn Shemlens always keeping pointy down.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't agree with that. The Rivaini who follow the Qun don't adhere to it in the same way as the Kossith who are Qunari, as they still have their seers; there could be variances in terms of how the elves follow the Qun. It would be a mistake to assume that all Qunari elves are the same.

Rivaini who tries to adhere to the Qun are still NOT Qunari. ACTUAL Qunari Elves will hold zero interrest in moving to any Elven country.

 

There isn't any mention that the people in Rivain are currently fighting amongst each other, not even in the World of Thedas. And you seem to be making an assumption about the kingdom's strength, which we really can't gauge with any sincerity one way or another without actual information from the developers addressing this.

I didn't say they were fighting. I said they were fractured. Which they are.

 

The humans are fleeing the Dales en mass in Asunder due to the civil war, so it seems that it could be a viable option as an elven homeland, especially given that it already had a high elven population to begin with (outnumbering the humans before the Orlesian civil war started).

 

And most rulers would prefer they had a home to send them back to. Some of the human refugees from the Dales will probably also wind up in Ferelden, who would be keen to send them back at some point. Which an Elven nation would actively prevent.

Just because they are numerically superior does not entitle the Elves to steal the land from Orlais. All who live there are Orlesian citizens first and foremost. Not human or elf.

 

People have spoke in civility about the prospect of a pan-elven nation, where all the elves can have a home.

 

Yes, and yet some persist at trying to force the idea of the Elvhen on the Elvish people. Elvhen is a term that is going exticnt. And good riddance.

[TK514]

What if there is actually a main quest in DA:I to have an independent elven nation, but Bioware forces you to choose between the Dalish or the City Elves to rule it? I've been fearing a scenario like that since Felassan explained the differences of class in Arlathan to Briala.

 

City Elf, without hesitation or remorse.

[Icy Magebane]

What if there is actually a main quest in DA:I to have an independent elven nation, but Bioware forces you to choose between the Dalish or the City Elves to rule it? I've been fearing a scenario like that since Felassan explained the differences of class in Arlathan to Briala.

That seems rather arbitrary and would be kind of annoying tbh... if this was a mandatory choice with no way of staying neutral or attempting to get them to work together, I'd have to decide based on who the prospective leaders would be.  That's too complicated for me to decide without context...

[jtav]

I'd prefer to focus on the integration of city elves into their respective nations. I think it's possible, though it won't be a long or easy process. The Dalish...well, I think they're doomed, really.

[LobselVith8]

Rivaini who tries to adhere to the Qun are still NOT Qunari. ACTUAL Qunari Elves will hold zero interrest in moving to any Elven country.

 

You don't get to make that decision. The followers of the Qun are Qunari. Even a character like Tallis, who turned to the Qun later in life, is identified (by herself and others) as a Qunari.

 

I didn't say they were fighting. I said they were fractured. Which they are.

 

Technically, you said they were "fighting each other".

 

And most rulers would prefer they had a home to send them back to. Some of the human refugees from the Dales will probably also wind up in Ferelden, who would be keen to send them back at some point. Which an Elven nation would actively prevent.

Just because they are numerically superior does not entitle the Elves to steal the land from Orlais. All who live there are Orlesian citizens first and foremost. Not human or elf.

 

I think the elves are entitled to have a place where they can be free from the kind of tyranny that they suffered in places like Orlais, a nation which had an initiation rite where chevaliers murdered elves, and where the latest purge killed thousands of men, women, and children. The displacement of some people who left their homes is awful, but the plight of the elves is absolutely monstrous enough to justify the elves taking back the Dales.

 

It's been nearly a millennia of this cycle of institutionalized racism, rape, and murder under human rule, and it's about time the elves had their own place to call home.

 

Yes, and yet some persist at trying to force the idea of the Elvhen on the Elvish people. Elvhen is a term that is going exticnt. And good riddance.

 

It's an elven term meaning "Our People". I'm not as pessimistic as you are about the future of the elves.

[Sanctuary74]

Yes, elves need a homeland. Everyone needs a homeland and no one deserves to be oppressed.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What if there is actually a main quest in DA:I to have an independent elven nation, but Bioware forces you to choose between the Dalish or the City Elves to rule it? I've been fearing a scenario like that since Felassan explained the differences of class in Arlathan to Briala.

City Elves, no question. 

[TK514]

You're just saying this because you're looking for any excuse to ship Gaspard and Celene.

 

It's true.  The image of Celene and Gaspard exchanging vows amidst burning aravels almost warms my cold, black heart.

[Mistic]

That seems rather arbitrary and would be kind of annoying tbh... if this was a mandatory choice with no way of staying neutral or attempting to get them to work together, I'd have to decide based on who the prospective leaders would be.  That's too complicated for me to decide without context...

 

I don't say it's a good choice, just that it could happen. Whatever the case, it would be the ultimate irony (for the Dalish: "Rejoice! There's an elven land, just as you wanted. But you don't have any place in it, sorry"; or for the City Elves: "Rejoice! Those humans won't oppress you anymore! Now welcome your new Elven Overlords!").

 

If that were the case, I also had to look at it from an in-game perspective. In theory, I would be more inclined for the City Elves, just as TK514 and Sasha Braus. As much as I love the Dalish, the City Elves suffer every day more than them.

 

Technically, you said they were "fighting each other".

 

After reading the post, I think it was about Rivain's neighbours fighting each other, not about the Rivaini themselves.

[Samahl]

Yes, and yet some persist at trying to force the idea of the Elvhen on the Elvish people. Elvhen is a term that is going exticnt. And good riddance.

 

Why are you celebrating the destruction of an entire culture? Even if you're opposed to elven nationalism, surely you can't fault them for trying to preserve their culture, in spite of all the damage humans have done to them and it?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If that were the case, I also had to look at it from an in-game perspective. In theory, I would be more inclined for the City Elves, just as TK514 and Sasha Braus. As much as I love the Dalish, the City Elves suffer every day more than them.

It's not even just that. I sincerely think that if the new elven nation is to survive, the Dalish can't be in charge of the government. They would isolate the nation and be hostile to humans who enter its borders because that's what they were raised to do. Meanwhile the City Elves have lived with the humans and have seen how they work, giving them vital information on how to deal with them in politics and other interactions. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's not even just that. I sincerely think that if the new elven nation is to survive, the Dalish can't be in charge of the government. They would isolate the nation and be hostile to humans who enter its borders because that's what they were raised to do. Meanwhile the City Elves have lived with the humans and have seen how they work, giving them vital information on how to deal with them in politics and other interactions. 

Well you know that most city elves are just as racist if not more as dalish elves?

 

Pretty much human made 5 steps in alienage and he was attacked by elves in dao.

[Icy Magebane]

I don't say it's a good choice, just that it could happen. Whatever the case, it would be the ultimate irony (for the Dalish: "Rejoice! There's an elven land, just as you wanted. But you don't have any place in it, sorry"; or for the City Elves: "Rejoice! Those humans won't oppress you anymore! Now welcome your new Elven Overlords!").

 

If that were the case, I also had to look at it from an in-game perspective. In theory, I would be more inclined for the City Elves, just as TK514 and Sasha Braus. As much as I love the Dalish, the City Elves suffer every day more than them.

lol... well Bioware does seem to enjoy torturing us with these kinds of decisions...

 

Well, if I absolutely had to pick right now, I'd choose the Dalish, since they never gave up the fight.  IMO the City Elves suffer because they are too cowardly to take their chances outside of the humans' rule.  It's up to them whether they value survival over freedom, but based on what I've seen of the City Elves, I wouldn't put them in charge of anything.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well you know that most city elves are just as racist if not more as dalish elves?

 

Pretty much human made 5 steps in alienage and he was attacked by elves in dao.

You mean a few, not most. I'll say they are just as bad when every human, minus protagonists, who enters is killed. 

 

And considering the Alienage was purged mere weeks before, their anger is, while misplaced, understandable. 

[Tevinter Rose]

Has there been any point in which city elves have successfully fought back injustices in the alienages? It seems that City elves as a whole don't seem to have any organized trained fighters or anything to mount a defense. They're even banned from having weapons in the alienages. I think they would have to rely on the Dalish for any sort of military help if they want to fight for a homeland or even for equal rights. Without Dalish help I don't see how city elves could fight anything on their own.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You mean a few, not most.  

 

And considering the Alienage was purged mere weeks before, their anger is, while misplaced, understandable. 

Not few most same can be said about humans or dalish elves in the setting besides they openly experience human cruelty so they pretty much hold more grudge than dalish that avoid humans.

 

Elves have same potential to be racist as humans there is no difference here and all we need is just look how humans see elves in the setting.

[Samahl]

Elves have same potential to be racist as humans there is no difference here and all we need is just look how humans see elves in the setting.

 

Reducing the complexities of institutionalized racism to the occasional assault and mean words is disingenuous at best. Humans have far more capacity to enact racism, because they hold power over elves.

[Mistic]

lol... well Bioware does seem to enjoy torturing us with these kinds of decisions...

 

Oh, yes, more choices so the fans can spend years discussing about them

 

Well, if I absolutely had to pick right now, I'd choose the Dalish, since they never gave up the fight.  IMO the City Elves suffer because they are too cowardly to take their chances outside of the humans' rule.  It's up to them whether they value survival over freedom, but based on what I've seen of the City Elves, I wouldn't put them in charge of anything.

 

Well, they live just in human settlements. One or two can disappear one day to run to live with the Dalish, but hundreds of them at the same time? Without the humans noticing? And how would they live in the wilderness? Dalish groups tend to be small, not walking cities.

 

However, it's true that the Dalish are more military capable than the City Elves, even if they lack the numbers. Although they aren't trained foot or cavalry soldiers, as archers they're among the best and they have mages too.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Reducing the complexities of institutionalized racism to the occasional assault and mean words is disingenuous at best. Humans have far more capacity to enact racism, because they hold power over elves.

The difference is only in that what they can do about it now city elves can't do much but if you "free" them give them nation then you give them occasion pretty much same thing went before where elven nation started war.

 

Even velanna went quiet when asked if elves would give better treatment if they have won.

[Samahl]

The difference is only in that what they can do about it now city elves can't do much but if you "free" them give them nation then you give them occasion pretty much same thing went before where elven nation started war.

 

Even velanna went quiet when asked if elves would give better treatment if they have won.

 

They're not going to become powerful enough to do any substantial damage for a long time. Seriously, this argument hinges on elves somehow amassing enough power to retaliate against... whom, exactly? If they try to take out all the humans, they'll be struck down in a heartbeat. The only people I can see them conquering is Tevinter (with the help of the other nations, in an attempt to end the slave trade), and I doubt a people with a history of oppression are going to turn around and do the exact same thing to the conquered population, especially since the other nations will be there to keep them in check.

[Icy Magebane]

Well, they live just in human settlements. One or two can disappear one day to run to live with the Dalish, but hundreds of them at the same time? Without the humans noticing? And how would they live in the wilderness? Dalish groups tend to be small, not walking cities.

 

However, it's true that the Dalish are more military capable than the City Elves, even if they lack the numbers. Although they aren't trained foot or cavalry soldiers, as archers they're among the best and they have mages too.

Yeah, but the humans aren't forcing them to stay in the alienages, so long as they don't attempt to live within the human residential district or establish any permanent settlements...  at any point they can leave and take their chances in the wilderness.  Some would die, and some would live, but why just wait around and take abuse until somebody you've never met arbitrarily decides it's time for half of the alienage to die?

 

I'm not saying it would be easy, and I realize that the level of uncertainty would make it very difficult for a large group of elves to actually agree to this.  I'm merely saying that this is one example of how the City Elves have shown that they are largely composed of cowards, which is why I would not support them in this hypothetical example...

[EmperorSahlertz]

You don't get to make that decision. The followers of the Qun are Qunari. Even a character like Tallis, who turned to the Qun later in life, is identified (by herself and others) as a Qunari.

 

 

I don't make that call.... The ACTUAL Qunari do, and there are no Qunari in Rivian except for those that live in Kont-aar. It does not matter if someone consider himself a Qunari, if the actual Qunari does not. If some Rivaini has dellueded himself into thinking he is a QUnari, then he is in for a rude awakening when he tries to enter Par Vollen.

 

Technically, you said they were "fighting each other".

 

My EXACT words were:

"Secondly, Rivain is one of the weakest, if not the weakest, of the human nations, and one of the only reasons that they aren't being conquered by one of their neighbors is probably that all of them are too busy fighting eachother. The weak nature of Rivain society is not something to aspire to."

So no, TECHNICALLY I did NOT say Rivaini was busy fighting themselves. I said their neighbors were busy fighting amongst eachother.

 

I think the elves are entitled to have a place where they can be free from the kind of tyranny that they suffered in places like Orlais, a nation which had an initiation rite where chevaliers murdered elves, and where the latest purge killed thousands of men, women, and children. The displacement of some people who left their homes is awful, but the plight of the elves is absolutely monstrous enough to justify the elves taking back the Dales.

 

 

The latest purge was actually an attempt at putting down a rebellion. But it does say something if you think that an Elvish nation would treat rebellion any different.

And no. No matter how much the Elves have suffered does not allow them to inflict any further suffering on others. If the Elves want a homeland so badly they can either petition for it (fat chance), or migrate to some uninhabited place. If they want the Dales they will have to take it by force, and then pray to whatever gods they please that they are strong enough to hold it.

 

It's been nearly a millennia of this cycle of institutionalized racism, rape, and murder under human rule, and it's about time the elves had their own place to call home.

 

Last time the Elves had a home of their own, they almost destroyed the craddle of modern human society in Thedas. Don't hold your breath for the humans of Thedas to leap for joy at the prospect of another Elven nation.

 

It's an elven term meaning "Our People". I'm not as pessimistic as you are about the future of the elves.

 

I am sure the Elves can have a bright future ahead of them. Subscribing to the "Elvhen philosophy" is NOT one of them though.