2113 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

Ya, forget the Couslands, it's all about the Amells.

[EmperorSahlertz]

God, I hope not. I'm so sick of the game practically giving the Couslands a hand job for being the Maker's greatest gift to Thedas since Andraste just for existing. If they took over the throne after Alistair and/or Anora stepped down, regardless of which Warden became the Hero of Ferelden, we would never hear the end of it from Cousland fanboys and girls expecting everyone in the forums to gush over the Cousland PC and family as much as the characters gush over them in the game.

 

Besides, I remember how elves were treated in Nan's kitchen in the Cousland Origin, and how her verbal abuse and threats were treated as normal, if not endearing. I wouldn't trust them to help with the elves' plight.

 

Ideally, years will have passed after Alistair and/or Anora drops off. I hope someone else becomes just as if not more qualified to take the throne by then.

You really are an Elf zealot aren't you?

 

Ya, forget the Couslands, it's all about the Amells.

The Amells aren't even nobelity anymore. And then we are even ignoring the fact that they were Free Marchers and not Ferelden, and as such do not even factor into Ferelden politics.

[Xilizhra]

You really are an Elf zealot aren't you?

Nah, the Couslands do get a fair bit of annoying shilling in their own origins and from some of their fans. Plus, there were the developer statements saying that the HN PC was deliberately written to be racist, something that presumably extended to the rest of the family.

[TK514]

Nah, the Couslands do get a fair bit of annoying shilling in their own origins and from some of their fans. Plus, there were the developer statements saying that the HN PC was deliberately written to be racist, something that presumably extended to the rest of the family.

Huh, then they did a terrible job writing it, because my HN wasn't even remotely racist.

 

My dwarf noble, on the other hand...

 

And I'm sure all this discussion about the HN can find its way into the convenient new HN thread.

[MisterJB]

Nice...face lift, JB.

 

Thank you, I look like a twenty five year old man again.
 

[Milan92]

Nah, the Couslands do get a fair bit of annoying shilling in their own origins and from some of their fans. Plus, there were the developer statements saying that the HN PC was deliberately written to be racist, something that presumably extended to the rest of the family.

 

That's odd, considering House Cousland was renowed for their well treatment of elven servants.

 

This was coming from the mouth of an elven servant.

[MisterJB]

God, I hope not. I'm so sick of the game practically giving the Couslands a hand job for being the Maker's greatest gift to Thedas since Andraste just for existing.

Thank you, young lady. We are amazing.

We just don't take the throne because we are so magnanimous.

 

 

Besides, I remember how elves were treated in Nan's kitchen in the Cousland Origin, and how her verbal abuse and threats were treated as normal, if not endearing.

This again? The elves didn't feel afraid to insult her back and didn't earn any punishment for it.

But you'll tell me that was just defiance breaking through after that servant reached a boiling point and he was just terrified.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Is there anyone or anything that doesn't get annoying shilling from their fans?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Is there anyone or anything that doesn't get annoying shilling from their fans?

 

Canada!

[Xilizhra]

Huh, then they did a terrible job writing it, because my HN wasn't even remotely racist.

 

My dwarf noble, on the other hand...

 

And I'm sure all this discussion about the HN can find its way into the convenient new HN thread.

It was specifically based around being unable to call Nan out for said kitchen scene, IIRC.

 

 

Thank you, young lady. We are amazing.

We just don't take the throne because we are so magnanimous.

Oh, hey, you got someone's gender right. But you still manage to get your whole family iced. All elven parental figures you get to see in-game actually survive in-game (and nothing bad at all is implied to have happened to the elf mage's family).

 

 

That's odd, considering House Cousland was renowed for their well treatment of elven servants.

 

This was coming from the mouth of an elven servant.

It's a relative thing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Nah, the Couslands do get a fair bit of annoying shilling in their own origins and from some of their fans. Plus, there were the developer statements saying that the HN PC was deliberately written to be racist, something that presumably extended to the rest of the family.

They were deliberately written with the CAPABILITY of racism. There is a remarkably huge difference between the two.

 

And yeah, that part with the entire Cousland family being massacered.... I mean, come on BioWare! Can you favoritise them more, or what?!

 

(And I'll just assume that we ignore the part with the Cousland family being renown for treating their Elven servants fairly?)

[Xilizhra]

They were deliberately written with the CAPABILITY of racism. There is a remarkably huge difference between the two.

 

And yeah, that part with the entire Cousland family being massacered.... I mean, come on BioWare! Can you favoritise them more, or what?!

 

(And I'll just assume that we ignore the part with the Cousland family being renown for treating their Elven servants fairly?)

What, you don't think martyrdom adds a certain allure to a family? Last of the line, and all that?

 

As for the last line, see above: it's a relative thing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

What, you don't think martyrdom adds a certain allure to a family? Last of the line, and all that?

 

As for the last line, see above: it's a relative thing.

Martyrdom; The condition of a martyr; the death of a martyr; the suffering of death on account of adherence to the Christian faith, or to any cause.

 

Yeah.... That is not at all what happened to the Couslands. They were slaughtered in their beds by their political enemies.

 

And no matter how you put it, the Couslands DID treat their Elven servants well. And obviously those of you who criticize the kitchen scene has never yourselves worked in a kitchen, so I'll just chalk that up to plain old ignorance.

[Xilizhra]

Martyrdom; The condition of a martyr; the death of a martyr; the suffering of death on account of adherence to the Christian faith, or to any cause.

 

Yeah.... That is not at all what happened to the Couslands. They were slaughtered in their beds by their political enemies.

 

And no matter how you put it, the Couslands DID treat their Elven servants well. And obviously those of you who criticize the kitchen scene has never yourselves worked in a kitchen, so I'll just chalk that up to plain old ignorance.

Then take said ignorance up with Bioware. I'm not the one who stated it originally.

[Dean_the_Young]

"Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies, in someone else's war, for someone else's reasons."

 

Something that sadly even applies to identity-based conflicts. It's downright tragic, but it's true- it may be posed or presented as a conflict for, by, and of 'you', but it's always a 'you' as defined and perceived by someone else. Oh, they might be quite kind and paternalistic about it, spelling it out so nice and clear: these are 'your' enemies, this is 'your' war, and here are 'your' reasons. Follow them and you will be safe in the conformity of the group, surely to be lead to a glorious and freer future for 'you.' Dissent, and... well, identity politics and group dynamics play out even without deliberate sanction.

 

Racial Identity conflicts are a No True Scotsman fallacy gone large. Selflessly cast in the selflessness of the group, they none the less dehumanize and deligitimize the individual by proscribing a blanket identity, viewpoint, and direction on them. This is benign racism at best, categorizing the proper nature and direction of people into a polity by their race, and out of step with reality at worse, when people project an identity and ambition on a collective that disregards what the individuals identities and ambitions of that collective even are. It is completely possible for advocate forces to advocate and act on behalf of a identity that does not, in fact, exist on the ground in mass or number to be relevant. To the western interventionist, 'we will be greeted as liberators' should ring a bell.

 

The more willing the outside advocates of the identity are to selflessly allow the collective to bear the costs for the greater good of the collective, to do what they would not 'for their own good' and because, obviously, the  outside advocate knows best, the worse the human cost becomes.

[Dean_the_Young]

Then take said ignorance up with Bioware. I'm not the one who stated it originally.

 

Even so, you carried it forward. You can be chastised as well for using a poor argument, even if you did not originate it.

[MisterJB]

Oh, hey, you got someone's gender right. But you still manage to get your whole family iced. All elven parental figures you get to see in-game actually survive in-game (and nothing bad at all is implied to have happened to the elf mage's family).

Yep. And the Couslands can end the game with one son/daugther being the Prince-Consort/King/Queen, Teyrn(of which there are only two) of Gwaren, Arl/essa of Amaranthine, Champion of Redcliff, Hero of Ferelden, Commander of the Grey and the other is the Teyrn of Highever.

 

You see this?

 

 

It's ours. We own it. Everyone else just lives in it.

[Xilizhra]

Yep. And the Couslands can end the game with one son/daugther being the Prince-Consort/King/Queen, Teyrn(of which there are only two) of Gwaren, Arl/essa of Amaranthine, Champion of Redcliff, Hero of Ferelden, Commander of the Grey and the other is the Teyrn of Highever.

Amaranthine is held by the Grey Wardens, with the Warden just as a representative, and passes out of the PC's hands eventually. Gwaren is never brought up at all and might have been retconned. Champion of Redcliffe is just an honorary title.

Also, if you disregard all of that, any other Warden, including an elf mage, can control all of that minus Highever. As Alistair's mistress, you might not have official power, but you'll be able to ensure that the source of said official power will do what you want.

[MisterJB]

Amaranthine is held by the Grey Wardens, with the Warden just as a representative, and passes out of the PC's hands eventually.

Amaranthine only passes to the Grey Wardens because Fergus allows it; again the Cousland magnanimity; andit remain a vassal of Highever.

 

Gwaren is never brought up at all and might have been retconned.

If Bioware wants to take back some boon, they have no problem saying so. Elves and mages should know.

 

Champion of Redcliffe is just an honorary title.

Just like Champion of Kirkwall was? It denotes influence.

 

Also, if you disregard all of that, any other Warden, including an elf mage, can control all of that minus Highever. As Alistair's mistress, you might not have official power, but you'll be able to ensure that the source of said official power will do what you want.

Except you have to Harden Alistair for him to take the PC as a mistress in which case he is not easy to manipulate.

The Human Noble is the one that can end up with most titles and connections. That's a fact.

 

Another fact is that Fergus always survives and, regardless of the PC origin, as a Teyrn, his well being will always be worth more than that of every elf .

[Char]

Amaranthine only passes to the Grey Wardens because Fergus allows it; again the Cousland magnanimity; andit remain a vassal of Highever.

 

If Bioware wants to take back some boon, they have no problem saying so. Elves and mages should know.

 

Just like Champion of Kirkwall was? It denotes influence.

 

Except you have to Harden Alistair for him to take the PC as a mistress in which case he is not easy to manipulate.

The Human Noble is the one that can end up with most titles and connections. That's a fact.

 

Another fact is that Fergus always survives and, regardless of the PC origin, as a Teyrn, his well being will always be worth more than that of every elf .

 

I think you have to look at all this within the context of the game itself. In the Dragon Age universe, in most places humans are held to be more valuable than elves, and noble humans more valuable than commoners. That's not deliberate favouritism of an origin, it's maintaining consistency in the world-state they want to show to the player. It all depends on how you like to play- the HN is a very archetypal 'noble saves the day, marries royalty' line. The Elven origins are underdog stories, where you overcome cultural and social barriers to become Chancellor/mistress/warden commander.

 

I have absolutely no idea what any of this has to do with the Elves entitlement to a homeland, btw.

[Xilizhra]

If Bioware wants to take back some boon, they have no problem saying so. Elves and mages should know.

Well, with the way the Hinterlands conflict is shaping, it looks like we'll be able to claim the mage boon the hard way. Elves remain to be seen. Gwaren, however, is by all appearances gone forever.

 

 

Amaranthine only passes to the Grey Wardens because Fergus allows it; again the Cousland magnanimity; andit remain a vassal of Highever.

Not from what I remember; Alistair just declares that the Grey Wardens own it now. He's the king, he can do that.

 

 

Just like Champion of Kirkwall was? It denotes influence.

"Champion" is a very distinct title in the Free Marches; when used by Eamon, it seems to be more akin to "favored lackey."

 

 

Except you have to Harden Alistair for him to take the PC as a mistress in which case he is not easy to manipulate.

The Human Noble is the one that can end up with most titles and connections. That's a fact.

 

Another fact is that Fergus always survives and, regardless of the PC origin, as a Teyrn, his well being will always be worth more than that of every elf .

Who says he'd have to be manipulated? If I was inclined to romance Alistair, we'd likely agree on more or less everything important already.

 

As for Fergus? He's never important to the story beyond figuring out who the HN PC's surviving relatives are, and I seriously doubt he'll ever turn up again.

 

 

I have absolutely no idea what any of this has to do with the Elves entitlement to a homeland, btw.

I think we've said all that needs to be said on that topic.

[lil yonce]

Was just skimming info about the Dales on the wiki and I'm reminded that after 700 years the Dales is still mostly elven. It seems a bit odd. I mean, why haven't the Orlesians colonized it more thoroughly?

[Steelcan]

Was just skimming info about the Dales on the wiki and I'm reminded that after 700 years the Dales is still mostly elven. It seems a bit odd. I mean, why haven't the Orlesians colonized it more thoroughly?

because it probably isn't high quality land

[Steelcan]

has there been a specific dev statement saying that the Terynir of Gwaren didn't happen?

 

It's hardly like the Mage or Dalish boon where retconning was necessary to keep the writers preferred storyline in place

[LobselVith8]

Iona does say that the Couslands treat elves well.

 

I really can't imagine that Iona would say anything offensive to one of the most powerful nobles in the kingdom, but I believe Faerunner may have also been addressing that scene because of how the Cousland origin was supposed to put the player on the 'other side' of racism, according to the developers. It's something that players spoke about quite a bit in the Fenris thread, too. And the notion of seeing an elven blooded King Alistair lose the throne so a pure-blooded human could take it likely doesn't sit well with her.