2113 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

They're not going to become powerful enough to do any substantial damage for a long time. Seriously, this argument hinges on elves somehow amassing enough power to retaliate against... whom, exactly? If they try to take out all the humans, they'll be struck down in a heartbeat. The only people I can see them conquering is Tevinter (with the help of the other nations, in an attempt to end the slave trade), and I doubt a people with a history of oppression are going to turn around and do the exact same thing to the conquered population, especially since the other nations will be there to keep them in check.

Were dales powerful enough yet they still attacked orlais...

against whom? well take your pick be it random guests or human residents in their country to neighboring kingdom that they will attack.Not that humans are better what only makes it worse.Well do i have tell you what mages are doing now however oppression in their case is very debatable.

That you were oppressed doesn't mean you won't oppress when you will end in charge in fact often this how things like rebelion end.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why are you celebrating the destruction of an entire culture? Even if you're opposed to elven nationalism, surely you can't fault them for trying to preserve their culture, in spite of all the damage humans have done to them and it?

Of course I can. Just because it is a culture does not mean that it is worth preserving. Dalish culture lead to Montsimmard being sacked by Darkspawn, and apparently advocates apathy when the world is in need of your aid. Good riddance that the Dalish culture will never rise again.

[Ianamus]

Segregation isn't exactly going to improve relations between elves and humans. 

 

Full immersion into human culture is the only realistic way forward

[LobselVith8]

Has there been any point in which city elves have successfully fought back injustices in the alienages? It seems that City elves as a whole don't seem to have any organized trained fighters or anything to mount a defense. They're even banned from having weapons in the alienages. I think they would have to rely on the Dalish for any sort of military help if they want to fight for a homeland or even for equal rights. Without Dalish help I don't see how city elves could fight anything on their own.

Purges tend to be the consequence. I think the Dalish and Andrastian elves need to be unified in order to gain back the Dales from the Orlesian Empire. They're much stronger together than they are apart.

[Dean_the_Young]

The alternative is to wait for humans to realize that murder, torture, racism, discrimination, and rape are wrong... does that really seem like a good idea to anybody considering they haven't made any progress in several centuries?  Drastic times call for drastic measures.  Humans will probably not be this disorganized again for a few hundred years, so now is the best time to make a move...

 

If you have no idea where the metric was several hundred years ago and ignore any events to the contrary in the interim by not meeting your arbitrary metric of 'progress', I imagine drastic measures with potentially catastrophic consequences would seem like a good idea.

[Gwydden]

Do humans and dwarves need a homeland?

 

Why don't we take away theirs, leave them wandering vagrants or subservient second-class citizens in someone else's continent, and then see if having a homeland is really needed for a people.

By that logic, ethnic minorities should vacate the United States and find their own piece of land. so that only White Anglo-Saxon Protestants remain.

 

ETA: Or better yet, Native Americans!

[Dean_the_Young]

Why are you celebrating the destruction of an entire culture? Even if you're opposed to elven nationalism, surely you can't fault them for trying to preserve their culture, in spite of all the damage humans have done to them and it?

 

Sure you can- if the effort of preserving their culture is detrimental to themselves and/or others. Which it's pretty easy to argue is, has been, and will continue to be.
 

[Icy Magebane]

Segregation isn't exactly going to improve relations between elves and humans. 

 

Full immersion into human culture is the only realistic way forward

Would you happen to have a timeframe for when the humans will agree to this?  Because from where I'm standing it looks to be a few centuries past due...

[Dean_the_Young]

By that logic, ethnic minorities should vacate the United States and find their own piece of land. so that only White Anglo-Saxon Protestants remain.

 

ETA: Or better yet, Native Americans!

 

I'm totally oppressed, yo. The fact that I do not identify with the culture of my great-great-great-great-couple-more-great grandparents is a tragedy, yo. Get out of my country, it's my country now yo.

[Gwydden]

Would you happen to have a timeframe for when the humans will agree to this?  Because from where I'm standing it looks to be a few centuries past due...

Yeah, you're probably right. I mean, just look at our history. When Southern landowners kept looking for ways to circumvent the Emancipation Proclamation, African Americans rose up in arms and carved out their own homeland in the banks of the Mississippi River! Now if they had just kept their cool, they would just have stayed oppressed... Forever!

 

Oh, wait, that never happened!

[Icy Magebane]

If you have no idea where the metric was several hundred years ago and ignore any events to the contrary in the interim by not meeting your arbitrary metric of 'progress', I imagine drastic measures with potentially catastrophic consequences would seem like a good idea.

?

 

I'm not sure I understand your point.  There is no debate that the city elves have been oppressed for centuries.  This is a fact.  I don't consider my definition of progress to be arbitrary when it is currently legal to execute large numbers of elves without trials or even being accused of any specific crime.  This has been the case for hundreds of years.  Another historical fact.  What exactly is the problem with what I'm saying?  Do you honestly believe that inaction is the best option because it might not work out for the better?  Are you essentially just advocating cowardice because a rebellion is, in your opinion, unlikely to succeed?

[Icy Magebane]

I'm totally oppressed, yo. The fact that I do not identify with the culture of my great-great-great-great-couple-more-great grandparents is a tragedy, yo. Get out of my country, it's my country now yo.

Using humor to cover the fact that your argument has no merit?  I guess I shouldn't be surprised since you seem to be a staunch supporter of cowardice.

[Gwydden]

?

 

I'm not sure I understand your point.  There is no debate that the city elves have been oppressed for centuries.  This is a fact.  I don't consider my definition of progress to be arbitrary when it is currently legal to execute large numbers of elves without trials or even being accused of any specific crime.  This has been the case for hundreds of years.  Another historical fact. 

It is currently legal to execute large numbers of humans without trials or even being accused of any specific crime. That has been the case for thousands of years. Another historical fact.

[Icy Magebane]

Yeah, you're probably right. I mean, just look at our history. When Southern landowners kept looking for ways to circumvent the Emancipation Proclamation, African Americans rose up in arms and carved out their own homeland in the banks of the Mississippi River! Now if they had just kept their cool, they would just have stayed oppressed... Forever!

 

Oh, wait, that never happened!

It's not the same situation at all... I'm not even arguing such a ridiculous comparison.

[Dean_the_Young]

Would you happen to have a timeframe for when the humans will agree to this?  Because from where I'm standing it looks to be a few centuries past due...

 

Sure- how long have humans and elves been willing to couple and identify the children with the dominant culture out of feelings of love and acceptance rather than rape?

 

Thedas doesn't (currently) have a half-elf cultural identity, even though some of the racism remains. That, in and of itself, is an indication of assimilation. It's also a barrier to identifying the descendents of those who have assimilated.

 

The city elf population isn't merely 'the population that has been denied assimilation.' It also overlaps with 'the descendants of those who have not been able to assimilate yet.' Those who have succeeded to the point that they could have families with the dominant group, traditionally one of the biggest flags of assimilation, see their heirs leave the phenotype pool to be identified as city elves in the first place.

 

When you consider some of the racial/caste systems of history, this isn't something to be taken to granted. To be sure, it's helped by the fact that a half-elf looks full human... but many societies in history have had fixations enough on bloodline purity and tracking family history that they would discriminate on the children despite even undetectable differences in the family tree.

[Icy Magebane]

It is currently legal to execute large numbers of humans without trials or even being accused of any specific crime. That has been the case for thousands of years. Another historical fact.

And this is the proof that you're just trying to waste my time... lol... if you're going to troll, come up with better material beforehand.

[LobselVith8]

Were dales powerful enough yet they still attacked orlais...

We have two conflicting historical accounts as to how that war started, and who struck first.

against whom? well take your pick be it random guests or human residents in their country to neighboring kingdom that they will attack.Not that humans are better what only makes it worse.

No one is flawless, that's true, but I think the elves would focus on building a nation for themselves, first and foremost.

Well do i have tell you what mages are doing now however oppression in their case is very debatable.
That you were oppressed doesn't mean you won't oppress when you will end in charge in fact often this how things like rebelion end.

I have little doubt it wouldn't be a perfect society, but I can see an innumerable number of men, women, and children benefitting in a region where they aren't at the mercy of humans who see them as "less than people".

[Gwydden]

It's not the same situation at all... I'm not even arguing such a ridiculous comparison.

It looks pretty much the same from where I'm standing. Blacks in the United States had it as bad as if not worse than elves for most of their history. They never started any large scale violent rebellion and the overwhelming majority of them never tried to create their own homeland, nor did they want to.

 

Dismissing an argument without even trying to argue it does not speak well of your own case.

[LobselVith8]

Using humor to cover the fact that your argument has no merit? I guess I shouldn't be surprised since you seem to be a staunch supporter of cowardice.

Considering that Dean has argued in the past that the Dalish are comparable to the Taliban, you're better off not wasting your breath.

[Gwydden]

And this is the proof that you're just trying to waste my time... lol... if you're going to troll, come up with better material beforehand.

Let me spell it out for you:

 

Thedas has no such thing as rights. It does have privilege, though. Nobles can do whatever the hell they want, to whoever they want, whenever they feel like it. Human commoners get screwed over all the time, but nobody gives a damn because they don't play victim nearly as often as elves do.

[Vapaa]

One word: sovereignity

 

Without a country they have no future of their own, a country is a vital need for the elves.

[Gwydden]

One word: sovereignity

 

Without a country they have no future of their own, a country is a vital need for the elves.

Because...?

[Vapaa]

What because ?

[LobselVith8]

I don't make that call.... The ACTUAL Qunari do, and there are no Qunari in Rivian except for those that live in Kont-aar. It does not matter if someone consider himself a Qunari, if the actual Qunari does not. If some Rivaini has dellueded himself into thinking he is a QUnari, then he is in for a rude awakening when he tries to enter Par Vollen.

 

The lore would disagee with you. According to Sister Petrice's entry about the Lomerryn Accords, "It's worth noting, however, that the Kingdom of Rivain immediately violated the treaty. Twice. Once, when the humans of northern Rivain - nearly all practitioners of the Qun and therefore by definition, "Qunari" - refused to leave their homes and go in exile to the islands. And again, when the Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, tried a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves. It's a fortunate mystery that the leaders in Kont-aar did not alert their allies in the Northern Passage, or we'd still be fighting the giants now."

 

My EXACT words were:

"Secondly, Rivain is one of the weakest, if not the weakest, of the human nations, and one of the only reasons that they aren't being conquered by one of their neighbors is probably that all of them are too busy fighting eachother. The weak nature of Rivain society is not something to aspire to."

So no, TECHNICALLY I did NOT say Rivaini was busy fighting themselves. I said their neighbors were busy fighting amongst eachother.

 

I don't see the mix of different faiths in Rivain as a weakness; I find it incredibly troubling that anyone would.

 

The latest purge was actually an attempt at putting down a rebellion. But it does say something if you think that an Elvish nation would treat rebellion any different.

And no. No matter how much the Elves have suffered does not allow them to inflict any further suffering on others. If the Elves want a homeland so badly they can either petition for it (fat chance), or migrate to some uninhabited place. If they want the Dales they will have to take it by force, and then pray to whatever gods they please that they are strong enough to hold it.

 

The latest purge against thousands of men, women, and children in Halamshiral was because Celene wanted to show that she wasn't soft on the elves. And the fact that purges take place throughout the human nations, and across the centuries, is merely one of the reasons why I think the elves deserve to have their own homeland.

 

Last time the Elves had a home of their own, they almost destroyed the craddle of modern human society in Thedas. Don't hold your breath for the humans of Thedas to leap for joy at the prospect of another Elven nation.

 

According to the Dalish, in retaliation for human incursion into their territory because the elves wouldn't convert to the Andrastian faith. And I'm fairly certain that Ferelden and Nevarra wouldn't mind Orlais losing control of the territory of the Dales.

 

I am sure the Elves can have a bright future ahead of them. Subscribing to the "Elvhen philosophy" is NOT one of them though.

 

There's nothing wrong with the elves who follow the Creators and want to keep true to the ways of their culture.

[LobselVith8]

It looks pretty much the same from where I'm standing. Blacks in the United States had it as bad if not worse as elves for most of their history. They never started any large scale violent rebellion and the overwhelming majority of them never tried to create their own homeland, nor did they want to.

Dismissing an argument without even trying to argue it does not speak well of your own case.

It's the fact that you can't act as though real world humans and society is be an exact parallel to a fictitious continent where magic and elves exist.

The status quo for elves under human rule has remained reprehensible for the better part of a millennia. I think the elves deserve a place where they can be free of this tyranny.