1680 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabooooom]

That would be assuming they evolved at a similar rate to us though wouldn't it?

Not really, it really only is assuming that an intelligent race has evolved before us, did not go extinct, and spread out from their solar system.

If you run the math of the Fermi Paradox, its actually rather fascinating. If it happens just once, a single species colonizing at an extremely modest rate of sublight travel could spread across the entire Milky Way in around 50 million years.

So a race with a 1 billion year head start on us could, using extremely conservative estimates of interstellar sublight travel and exponential population growth, colonize the entire Milky Way galaxy TWENTY times over.

Holy crap. That's still astounding to me, whenever I think about it, because it is hard to wrap ones head around 50 million years, let alone a billion. But the reasoning and the numbers make sense.

One of the reasons why I love Mass Effect is that it actively acknowledges the likely truth of the Paradox. The reason why the galaxy wasn't dominated and colonized by a single race (after the Leviathans) were because the Reapers extinguished all newcomer civilizations.

With Andromeda being twice the size and the age of the Milky Way, this would have to be addressed to make the story sensible. Technological advancement not proceeding at a rate equivalent to human advancement actually becomes meaningless when you consider the timescales involved.

[mrjack]

And I'm saying that the "human nature" of pursuing advancement and innovation as a goal you describe is largely born of progressive ideals spread to the rest of the world by western thinkers in the relatively recent past.

 

It's not about religious fear mongering, its about cultural priorities.

 

And I'm saying that human nature is universal. It is in our nature to be curious, to invent, to solve problems whatever our cultural upbringing.  One's culture is a man-made construct based on tradition. It might effect what we do but not what it is our nature to do.

 

Still, I'm having a hard time thinking of any society past or present that hasn't worked towards becoming more technologically advanced. I didn't realise it was the West pedaling these ideas when you consider that the Iraqis, the Chinese, the Incas and the Egyptians were all writing poetry and building massive temples while my ancestors here in the British Isles were building mud huts and hunting animals with spears.

 

And organised religion has always been the enemy of science. That is still true to day. Just look at the war against stem cell research. That is not to say that everyone who believes in a god or saviour is against science, just that I can't think of single time in history when progress was held back for any other reason.

 

And what on earth do you mean by "progressive ideals" and why are you trying to make it sound like a bad thing?

[LinksOcarina]

And I'm saying that human nature is universal. It is in our nature to be curious, to invent, to solve problems whatever our cultural upbringing.  One's culture is a man-made construct based on tradition. It might effect what we do but not what it is our nature to do.

 

Still, I'm having a hard time thinking of any society past or present that hasn't worked towards becoming more technologically advanced. I didn't realise it was the West pedaling these ideas when you consider that the Iraqis, the Chinese, the Incas and the Egyptians were all writing poetry and building massive temples while my ancestors here in the British Isles were building mud huts and hunting animals with spears.

 

And organised religion has always been the enemy of science. That is still true to day. Just look at the war against stem cell research. That is not to say that everyone who believes in a god or saviour is against science, just that I can't think of single time in history when progress was held back for any other reason.

 

And what on earth do you mean by "progressive ideals" and why are you trying to make it sound like a bad thing?

 

Where were these discussions when we first saw the endings of Mass Effect 3? This is some good stuff right now.

 

That said, I can point out some cultures that have not worked for technological advances, at least for a time. Medieval Europe, with the exception of Spain from 700-1000 C.E, is one. There were some advances, but due to the fragmentation of Europe despite the best efforts of Charlemagne (rightfully or wrongfully, he was being backed by the Pope so he can convert more lands to his own flock) advancements in technology were not in the cards when survival was the name of the game, especially after the major decentralization of the Roman Empire during that time period. 

[Heimdall]

And I'm saying that human nature is universal. It is in our nature to be curious, to invent, to solve problems whatever our cultural upbringing.  One's culture is a man-made construct based on tradition. It might effect what we do but not what it is our nature to do.

 

Still, I'm having a hard time thinking of any society past or present that hasn't worked towards becoming more technologically advanced. I didn't realise it was the West pedaling these ideas when you consider that the Iraqis, the Chinese, the Incas and the Egyptians were all writing poetry and building massive temples while my ancestors here in the British Isles were building mud huts and hunting animals with spears.

 

And organised religion has always been the enemy of science. That is still true to day. Just look at the war against stem cell research. That is not to say that everyone who believes in a god or saviour is against science, just that I can't think of single time in history when progress was held back for any other reason.

 

And what on earth do you mean by "progressive ideals" and why are you trying to make it sound like a bad thing?

I didn't say developing technology was a western conceit, just the goal oriented pursuit of advancement and ideology of inevitable advancement.

 

And no, technological advancement has not been a cornerstone of all societies, it is mostly recent western culture that has enshrined it as a goal unto itself.  To give you an example, I recall a Chinese emperor that severely curtailed the creation of iron in the belief that it interfered with Chinese cultural values.  It wasn't until the twentieth century that China again produced iron on a scale comparable to the time before that emperor.

 

That's the popular narrative, but the relationship between science and religion is more complicated than that.  Yes, some scientists have been censured by organized religion, but up until the nineteenth century the view was that science was just another way of understanding God's creation, not in opposition to it.  Gregor Mendel, the father of modern geneticts, was an Augustine Friar.  Isaac Newton spent more years of his life studying the bible than working on physics and published both religious tracts and scientific works (He also tried creating a Philosopher's Stone using alchemical  formula derived from bible verses, but he was just kinda weird that way).

 

Historically the ideologies of progress and inevitable advancement have gone hand in hand with colonial ideologies and imperialist justifications. 

[wolfhowwl]

Not really, it really only is assuming that an intelligent race has evolved before us, did not go extinct, and spread out from their solar system.

If you run the math of the Fermi Paradox, its actually rather fascinating. If it happens just once, a single species colonizing at an extremely modest rate of sublight travel could spread across the entire Milky Way in around 50 million years.

So a race with a 1 billion year head start on us could, using extremely conservative estimates of interstellar sublight travel and exponential population growth, colonize the entire Milky Way galaxy TWENTY times over.

Holy crap. That's still astounding to me, whenever I think about it, because it is hard to wrap ones head around 50 million years, let alone a billion. But the reasoning and the numbers make sense.

One of the reasons why I love Mass Effect is that it actively acknowledges the likely truth of the Paradox. The reason why the galaxy wasn't dominated and colonized by a single race (after the Leviathans) were because the Reapers extinguished all newcomer civilizations.

With Andromeda being twice the size and the age of the Milky Way, this would have to be addressed to make the story sensible. Technological advancement not proceeding at a rate equivalent to human advancement actually becomes meaningless when you consider the timescales involved.

 

The residents of Andromeda could have annihilated each other in wars, fallen victim to some sort of calamity (ex. grey goo), or advanced themselves to a point where we are no longer relevant to them.

[mrjack]

I didn't say developing technology was a western conceit, just the goal oriented pursuit of advancement and ideology of inevitable advancement.

 

And no, technological advancement has not been a cornerstone of all societies, it is mostly recent western culture that has enshrined it as a goal unto itself.  To give you an example, I recall a Chinese emperor that severely curtailed the creation of iron in the belief that it interfered with Chinese cultural values.  It wasn't until the twentieth century that China again produced iron on a scale comparable to the time before that emperor.

 

That's the popular narrative, but the relationship between science and religion is more complicated than that.  Yes, some scientists have been censured by organized religion, but up until the nineteenth century the view was that science was just another way of understanding God's creation, not in opposition to it.  Gregor Mendel, the father of modern geneticts, was an Augustine Friar.  Isaac Newton spent more years of his life studying the bible than working on physics and published both religious tracts and scientific works (He also tried creating a Philosopher's Stone using alchemical  formula derived from bible verses, but he was just kinda weird that way).

 

Historically the ideologies of progress and inevitable advancement have gone hand in hand with colonial ideologies and imperialist justifications. 

 

I really don't know what you're trying to say...

 

The Chinese never stopped mining and trading in iron. During the Han dynasty, the industry was nationalised and a government monopoly was formed in order to seize control of all the profits. This was later reversed and it once again became a private enterprise.

 

As for pointing out that some scientists having religious beliefs, my exact words were:

 

"That is not to say that everyone who believes in a god or saviour is against science."

 

In fact I said that historically and in some instances, presently, organised religion is the enemy of science. I was talking about religious leaders who try to stifle progress and free thought in order to subjugate the faithful masses.

 

If you want to call history or current affairs "a popular narrative", go ahead.

 

Anyway we're way off topic so I'm done.

[Heimdall]

I really don't know what you're trying to say...
 
The Chinese never stopped mining and trading in iron. During the Han dynasty, the industry was nationalised and a government monopoly was formed in order to seize control of all the profits. This was later reversed and it once again became a private enterprise.
 
As for pointing out that some scientists having religious beliefs, my exact words were:
 
"That is not to say that everyone who believes in a god or saviour is against science."[/size]
 
In fact I said that historically and in some instances, presently, organised religion is the enemy of science. I was talking about religious leaders who try to stifle progress and free thought in order to subjugate the faithful masses.
 
If you want to call history or current affairs "a popular narrative", go ahead.
 
Anyway we're way off topic so I'm done.

That's just it, what you're talking about isn't history. Yes, there have been instances of science being opposed by some religious sects but to lump all that together and define all organized religion as being in opposition to science just isn't accurate.

[ZipZap2000]

Not really, it really only is assuming that an intelligent race has evolved before us, did not go extinct, and spread out from their solar system.

If you run the math of the Fermi Paradox, its actually rather fascinating. If it happens just once, a single species colonizing at an extremely modest rate of sublight travel could spread across the entire Milky Way in around 50 million years.

So a race with a 1 billion year head start on us could, using extremely conservative estimates of interstellar sublight travel and exponential population growth, colonize the entire Milky Way galaxy TWENTY times over.

Holy crap. That's still astounding to me, whenever I think about it, because it is hard to wrap ones head around 50 million years, let alone a billion. But the reasoning and the numbers make sense.

One of the reasons why I love Mass Effect is that it actively acknowledges the likely truth of the Paradox. The reason why the galaxy wasn't dominated and colonized by a single race (after the Leviathans) were because the Reapers extinguished all newcomer civilizations.

With Andromeda being twice the size and the age of the Milky Way, this would have to be addressed to make the story sensible. Technological advancement not proceeding at a rate equivalent to human advancement actually becomes meaningless when you consider the timescales involved.

 

And that's all well and good but it's little more than a theory, it also assumes other species would even want to travel to the stars. For an example of what i mean, the Ancient greeks came close to inventing the steam engine http://en.wikipedia....f_Alexandria ina time when the great library of alexandria was still standing. You can imagine what the world would like now if they had. Technology isn't something that you just put your mind to and presto, it's about investing time and resources in the right places, in the right moment and if the time and resources aren't invested? You don't invent the steam engine for another 2000 years or even at all. That's not even taking into account that they might simply not be interested, iirc the only reason we did it was because two super powers were having d*ck swinging competition. 

[CroGamer002]

Seize and desist on this off topic and borderline political discussion.

 

Continue discussion in private messaging or on some other forum.

[Shermos]

Please delete.

[Shermos]

Please delete.

[Shermos]

Several billion would be too big of a stretch, but close to a billion years more advanced species would be possible.
 
Which is still a massive diffrence.

 

According to the article I read, the oldest stars in the Milky way are at least several billion years older than our sun. Given what we know about planet formation and how quickly life arose on Earth after it was formed, it's entirely possible an alien civilisation in our galaxy has a several billion year head start on us.
 
http://www.techtimes...nomers-find.htm
 
Peak star formation: 10 billion years ago.
Our star: 5 Billion years old.
 
So it's not outside the realm of possibility that life on ET's planet could have a several billion year start on when life got started here. Even if they developed their civilisation at a slower rate than we have, they could still be beyond us in ways we can't imagine. Put it this way, ET could have been travelling around the cosmos using warp drive before the most basic life emerged on Earth.
 

The assumption of the inevitability of technological advancement is a human, specifically western European, idea spurred by specific ideologies of progress and improvement.

A civilisation which doesn't develop the ability to leave it's home planet and star system is not going to survive very long on a cosmic time scale. Black holes, gamma ray bursts, and large meteor impacts name just a few of the dangers a civilisation confined to one planet and star system face.

Perhaps civilisations which develop sophisticated technology are comparatively rare, but I'd be surprised if we turn out to be the only species in our galaxy which has ever landed on another planetary body. I'm more inclined to believe that we are today doing the kinds of things ET did billions of years ago.

Edit: Sorry Cro. I didn't see your post before writing this.

[Heimdall]

Woah, triple post

[Shermos]

Woah, triple post

Sorry about that. Australia: First world country with a third world telecommunications infrastructure.

[Sion1138]

 

According to the article I read, the oldest stars in the Milky way are at least several billion years older than our sun. Given what we know about planet formation and how quickly life arose on Earth after it was formed, it's entirely possible an alien civilisation in our galaxy has a several billion year head start on us.
 
http://www.techtimes...nomers-find.htm
 
Peak star formation: 10 billion years ago.
Our star: 5 Billion years old.
 
So it's not outside the realm of possibility that life on ET's planet could have a several billion year start on when life got started here. Even if they developed their civilisation at a slower rate than we have, they could still be beyond us in ways we can't imagine. Put it this way, ET could have been travelling around the cosmos using warp drive before the most basic life emerged on Earth.

 

Could be, could also be that they never expand beyond their own system and die with their planet/s or much before. 

[Oldren Shepard]

It was said we will explore new region of the galaxy, not a new galaxy itself.

 

While so far it's only confirmed we will play as human N7, nothing on other species being denied nor acknowledged.

0:38

he says "a new region of space".

[Hanako Ikezawa]

0:38

he says "a new region of space".

0:47

"Pick a planet across the other side of the galaxy..."

 

The leak said we'd be only in one cluster, so how can we go to the other side of the galaxy? 

[Heimdall]

0:47
"Pick a planet across the other side of the galaxy..."
 
The leak said we'd be only in one cluster, so how can we go to the other side of the galaxy?

Actually that whole statement always struck me as weird. He talks about going from one end of the galaxy to another as if it were a big new thing. Ark Theory or not, leak or not, jumping across the galaxy is something we've been doing in all three games. Odd thing to emphasize.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Actually that whole statement always struck me as weird. He talks about going from one end of the galaxy to another as if it were a big new thing. Ark Theory or not, leak or not, jumping across the galaxy is something we've been doing in all three games. Odd thing to emphasize.

You make a good point. I mean sure ME1 was mainly in the Attican Traverse and ME2 mostly in the Terminus Systems, but ME3 literally had you go all over the galaxy, so it's not exactly a new feature. 

[Arcian]

With Andromeda being twice the size and the age of the Milky Way

Andromeda is no longer twice the size of the Milky Way, since it's been discovered that the Milky Way is about 50,000 light years bigger than previously estimated.

 

Also, twice the age of the Milky Way? Are you really suggesting the Andromeda Galaxy is 24 billion years old?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Andromeda is no longer twice the size of the Milky Way, since it's been discovered that the Milky Way is about 50,000 light years bigger than previously estimated.

 

Also, twice the age of the Milky Way? Are you really suggesting the Andromeda Galaxy is 24 billion years old?

Yep, though it is still almost twice as big. It is about 167% the size of the Milky Way. 

 

As for age, yeah that's just wrong. The universe itself is only about 13.8 billion years old. So that would mean Andromeda is almost twice as old as the universe.

[Oldren Shepard]

0:47

"Pick a planet across the other side of the galaxy..."

 

The leak said we'd be only in one cluster, so how can we go to the other side of the galaxy? 

He doesn't talk about the milky way and i don't believe entirely the "leaks" until bioware says otherwise

[Han Shot First]

[Oldren Shepard]

It's a shame not to live long enough to see  the unimaginable, out there.

[Dubozz]

so i just find out about this "new shinobi leak". My god someone is too afraid to go back to and face his own failures. New Galaxy, really? It's understandable that new studio doesn't want to take responibility for ME3 ending fiasco but this? Let's just say it is not a creative way to deal with the problems of post me3 universe, it's just a cheap way to put them under the carpet.