35 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Keep in mind, he became Regent around the time that Anora heard of Cailan's death. I think it's entirely reasonable she asked her father to serve as Regent while she was dealing with her husband's death-i.e grieving. I think the whole "Loghain seized power" is propaganda from Eamon and Teagan.

 

Anora isn't the type to let emotions sway her.  Her entire arguments for anything are logical and well placed.  Doubtless, Loghain seized the regency to 'protect' Anora, who he still sees as a child, from nobles, Orlais, whatever.  While I don't believe he did it because he loves power or wants the throne particularly (doubtless he intended after the crisis to step down in favor of his daughter), I don't think she asked him to do it.  She loves that throne more than Cailan, and I believe she was more worried she would lose that than experiencing any passing concern for the husband she lost.  She certainly chafes under Loghain's grip in that one scene where she's questioning him about her husband's death, and why he's not addressing the darkspawn threat instead of fighting the civil war, but she holds it in and makes her own plans/plots.

 

I tend to think Loghain seized the throne on his own and Anora couldn't say much about it considering the king's (her) army was now dead or scattered and Loghain had the armies of Gwaren, and through Howe--Highever, Denerim and Amaranthine--at his disposal to resist being unseated.  And he certainly considers Denerim to be the seat of his power (both Loghain and Eamon state that this is his city, the center of all his plots and power).  And even if she trusted Loghain not to harm her, she certainly would have been right that Howe would have if he thought he could get away with it.   And Loghain and Howe were as thick as thieves even if they had no particular love for one another.

 

Loghain says he wouldn't have killed her, but she has no way of knowing that after she's heard over and over and over "There is nothing I wouldn't do for my homeland."  

 

So, no, I don't think it's just propaganda.  Perhaps his motives aren't what's intimated properly (a need to protect his daughter/a viewpoint that only he could deal with the problems besetting Ferelden vs raw ambition), but yes, I think he seized the throne.  I think Alistair's viewpoint that Anora and Loghain feeling they are the only one's who can "fix things" is a pretty accurate assessment there.

 

The game certainly leaves the entire thing up to the player's interpretation. Someone saying he 'ambitiously seized the throne' is just as right as someone saying he had other reasons.  It certainly never spells out (beyond any shadow of a doubt) his motives for his actions, it's up to the players to interpret what's going on--all without discussing it with him since he doesn't join your party till after the Landsmeet where many would just kill him and be done with it.  One reason I believe the character has been so polarizing isn't necessarily that he's all that well written than any other character, but because it's so open, there are many different interpretations of his actions, and each player will insist his is the correct interpretation.  No matter what we think, 'head canon' is still 'head canon'.

 

Sorry for the wall o' text, in short, I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying I perceive the situation differently from you.

[King Dragonlord]

Anora isn't the type to let emotions sway her.  Her entire arguments for anything are logical and well placed.  Doubtless, Loghain seized the regency to 'protect' Anora, who he still sees as a child, from nobles, Orlais, whatever.  While I don't believe he did it because he loves power or wants the throne particularly (doubtless he intended after the crisis to step down in favor of his daughter), I don't think she asked him to do it.  She loves that throne more than Cailan, and I believe she was more worried she would lose that than experiencing any passing concern for the husband she lost.  She certainly chafes under Loghain's grip in that one scene where she's questioning him about her husband's death, and why he's not addressing the darkspawn threat instead of fighting the civil war, but she holds it in and makes her own plans/plots.

 

I tend to think Loghain seized the throne on his own and Anora couldn't say much about it considering the king's (her) army was now dead or scattered and Loghain had the armies of Gwaren, and through Howe--Highever, Denerim and Amaranthine--at his disposal to resist being unseated.  And he certainly considers Denerim to be the seat of his power (both Loghain and Eamon state that this is his city, the center of all his plots and power).  And even if she trusted Loghain not to harm her, she certainly would have been right that Howe would have if he thought he could get away with it.   And Loghain and Howe were as thick as thieves even if they had no particular love for one another.

 

Loghain says he wouldn't have killed her, but she has no way of knowing that after she's heard over and over and over "There is nothing I wouldn't do for my homeland."  

 

So, no, I don't think it's just propaganda.  Perhaps his motives aren't what's intimated properly (a need to protect his daughter/a viewpoint that only he could deal with the problems besetting Ferelden vs raw ambition), but yes, I think he seized the throne.  I think Alistair's viewpoint that Anora and Loghain feeling they are the only one's who can "fix things" is a pretty accurate assessment there.

 

The game certainly leaves the entire thing up to the player's interpretation. Someone saying he 'ambitiously seized the throne' is just as right as someone saying he had other reasons.  It certainly never spells out (beyond any shadow of a doubt) his motives for his actions, it's up to the players to interpret what's going on--all without discussing it with him since he doesn't join your party till after the Landsmeet where many would just kill him and be done with it.  One reason I believe the character has been so polarizing isn't necessarily that he's all that well written than any other character, but because it's so open, there are many different interpretations of his actions, and each player will insist his is the correct interpretation.  No matter what we think, 'head canon' is still 'head canon'.

 

Sorry for the wall o' text, in short, I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying I perceive the situation differently from you.

 

Sure, Anora is not swayed by her emotions, which is why when the Warden comes along calling for a focus on the real problem, she'll still happily betray you and side with the man who got us into this mess. Yup. Coldly rational thinking. Anora has her country's best interests at heart. 

 

Made worse by the fact that she clearly knows things about the Wardens that they've kept secret yet she still somehow doesn't realize the necessity of siding with them.

[sylvanaerie]

Sure, Anora is not swayed by her emotions, which is why when the Warden comes along calling for a focus on the real problem, she'll still happily betray you and side with the man who got us into this mess. Yup. Coldly rational thinking. Anora has her country's best interests at heart. 

 

Made worse by the fact that she clearly knows things about the Wardens that they've kept secret yet she still somehow doesn't realize the necessity of siding with them.

 

She knows about the Joining, that it can kill you.  That's all it shows in the game.  If she knows more, the game doesn't clarify.  But recall, after the shock value of 'it can kill you' is over with, everyone and his mabari seems to know about the Joining and it's potential consequences (both Leliana and Wynne mention it in conversations).  While that's more than Loghain possibly knows, she doesn't really know why wardens are needed.  No one in Ferelden--aside from Riordan--does, including Alistair or for that matter, the warden himself. At that point, it's still just legend and myth that wardens are needed for the Blight.  Though Anora seems smarter than the average Thedas citizen, there is nothing to point to her knowing the actual reason why (that it takes a warden to kill the archdemon permanently).  Like her father, Anora really doesn't do blind faith well. 

 

Anora has "Ferelden's best interests at heart" and her stance is pretty firm on that.  Again, it's a matter of perception, this time on her part.  She believes (like her father) that she's the only one who can 'fix things', that Alistair is incapable of leading the country during and after the Blight, so she will turn on you if she feels you aren't with her since, in her mind, you clearly don't have 'Ferelden's best interests' (read: her continued sovereignty) at heart.  Which, to me, kind of adds weight to her never voluntarily giving up control of the nation to anyone.  Even the father she loves.  

 

I will say her emotions outweigh one logical consideration.  She doesn't want her father to die.  So if the warden says he will support her, but still insists on Loghain's death, she will oppose the warden even if she knows that's political suicide.  If you arrange the marriage to ensure your support (either for yourself or Alistair) she refuses to marry the man who killed her father, again potentially costing her the throne.  Even she has her limits, which I think adds to the character's complexity.

 

Even so, in the end, when all is said and done, she will step over his cooling corpse to argue for the throne, and she will graciously accept his death in the conversations afterward.  She doesn't love her father less, but this is her pragmatism coming forward.  She doesn't allow any animosity she may feel toward the warden who killed her father to color her need to deal with the greater issue at hand.  She accepts that the warden is the person who will lead the armies and get the job done, to further oppose him for killing her father would not be in Ferelden's best interests, so she puts aside her own personal feelings to attend to her nation's need.  In this, I believe, she shows more maturity and the ability to put aside her feelings for the good of Ferelden.  Whereas Alistair does not, refusing to even work with the man responsible for the death of Duncan and the other wardens.  While I certainly understand this viewpoint and can appreciate the complexity of Alistair's writing, I do recognize it's a pretty selfish outlook when it comes to Ferelden's needs.

 

At least, to his credit, Loghain accepts at the end that he isn't the man for the job and leaves the nation in the warden's hands.

 

Anora cannot, if she loses at the Landsmeet, accept this.  This has less to do with emotion and more with ambition/pride since the most prudent thing at that point is to accept graciously and step down, since Eamon intimates that she should be killed along with her father to eliminate the threat.  Fortunately Alistair has more sense than that and locks her away (at least till the Blight is done) in case he doesn't make it out of the fighting alive to rule.  I suppose you can say that her stubborn refusal was an emotional response as well, but i don't perceive it as such.  It is simply her still insisting she's the best person for the job.  As I said, like her father, Anora doesn't do blind faith well.  She is even astonished that Alistair has the wherewithal to not execute her for refusing to offer her oath and making her heir apparent should he not be able to survive to accept the throne, something she will readily admit she might not have done (a dialogue that happens if Alistair is unhardened and placed on the throne).

 

I used to dislike her a lot more when I first started playing the game, putting Alistair on the throne usually with my warden as advisor or wife, but Anora's grown on me.  I wouldn't say I like her, but I've grown to appreciate the nuances of the character a lot more.  In fact, one of my favorite scenarios involve having her oppose me (by saying I'll support her but her father still has to pay for his crimes, making her turn on me), killing him and still supporting her bid for the throne.  Because then I get to call her a 'backstabbing b*tch' to her face and she can't deny it.   

 

Considering the shark tank of politics that prevails in Thedas, and is certain to come out in Inquisition, a 'backstabbing b*tch' may be just what Ferelden needs.

[King Dragonlord]

I say I believe that Anora knows because she does demonstrate that bit of knowledge and because the raided the Grey Warden's warehouse including the archdemon blood. they could have figured it out. I'm sure they have a codebreaker in Denerim and this is medieval encryption.

For the rest, i'm sure she's smart but the extent of it seems like an informed ability (or just bias). Maybe she's just forceful when dealing with pushovers.

Its a lot like Morrigan's cleverness or Alistair jokes.

[gottaloveme]

I started a post some time ago about Loghain wanting to have his own grey wardens -

 

the missing archdemon blood

pursuing the remaining wardens with bounties

torturing Riordan

making a deal with Uldred (who would know about the steps/ingredients involved in the joining potion)

 

but maybe it was Anora . . . mwahahaha

[sylvanaerie]

I say I believe that Anora knows because she does demonstrate that bit of knowledge and because the raided the Grey Warden's warehouse including the archdemon blood. they could have figured it out. I'm sure they have a codebreaker in Denerim and this is medieval encryption.

For the rest, i'm sure she's smart but the extent of it seems like an informed ability (or just bias). Maybe she's just forceful when dealing with pushovers.

Its a lot like Morrigan's cleverness or Alistair jokes.

 

You can say you believe that Anora knows more about Gray Wardens, but "head canon" is still just "head canon".  The game doesn't back that belief up with fact.  Truth is: Anora knows of the Joining.  That's it.  That is all that is in the game that we can see for certain.  I tend to think Howe is the one who raided the warden estate, not Anora (since the papers are in his room locked away), and we find Riordan in that estate who confirms it was Howe's man (Or possibly Loghain's as I forget the actual dialogue?) who drugged and captured him.  My personal head canon for her knowledge of this is that it was something she learned when Cailan was studying the Wardens, since I have only his fascination with them and her proximity to him to go by.  But that's still just "head canon" on my part, there is nothing that says he or she knew about any of that, and Cailan knew nothing about the correlation between wardens and darkspawn and the archdemon or he wouldn't have had his father's sword on hand to kill it, knowing it wasn't going to stay dead.

 

The game doesn't even state how she comes by this knowledge, we only have supposition and 'head canon' to go by.  I doubt they learned anything from warden papers, or Loghain (at the very least) wouldn't have been trying to kill the only 2 people capable of ending the Blight. He was all whackadoo about Ferelden and protecting it.  Throwing away the lives of the only two people in the nation capable of ending the darkspawn threat seems pretty stupid and (out of character for him) to me.

 

Even as late as the Landsmeet in the game, he is insisting Gray Wardens aren't necessary, which makes me believe he truly didn't know (and hence, Anora couldn't know--if her knowledge came from the warden papers). Lying through his teeth about that would be counterproductive to saving the country he loves.  If he did know, I could also see him insisting he attempt the Joining to deal with the Archdemon then throwing himself at it once he got a chance.  Loghain is very much a man to cover his own bases when it comes to protecting Ferelden.  He can't even accept his defeat until he sees with his own eyes the Warden knows her stuff and isn't just a child playing at war like Cailan was.  At the very least since he had the means to make wardens on hand, if he had decrypted the papers and knew why they are needed, he would have been making as many of his own loyal Ferelden wardens as fast as he could, something we never hear of in game.  And he certainly acts as surprised as the warden is when Riordan drops his little bombshell. 

 

So, no, I tend to think she knows about the Joining and that's it.  Even the player doesn't know till Riordan tells them.  If she or Loghain know more, the game isn't saying.

[gottaloveme]

 

 He was all whackadoo about Ferelden and protecting it. 

 

Whackadoo is a technical term . . .?

[sylvanaerie]

Whackadoo is a technical term . . .?

 

Yes, very technical..the latest terminology in psychiatric science 

 

It means "Someone too busy guarding himself from the dog barking on shore to see the 15' great white shark gnawing on his ass."

[theskymoves]

Yes, very technical..the latest terminology in psychiatric science 

 

It means "Someone too busy guarding himself from the dog barking on shore to see the 15' great white shark gnawing on his ass."

 

See also: 'can't see the forest for the trees syndrome'.

[gottaloveme]

That's my Cousland's pet shark - it should have been aiming for Howe

[King Dragonlord]

You can say you believe that Anora knows more about Gray Wardens, but "head canon" is still just "head canon".  The game doesn't back that belief up with fact.  Truth is: Anora knows of the Joining.  That's it.  That is all that is in the game that we can see for certain.  I tend to think Howe is the one who raided the warden estate, not Anora (since the papers are in his room locked away), and we find Riordan in that estate who confirms it was Howe's man (Or possibly Loghain's as I forget the actual dialogue?) who drugged and captured him.  My personal head canon for her knowledge of this is that it was something she learned when Cailan was studying the Wardens, since I have only his fascination with them and her proximity to him to go by.  But that's still just "head canon" on my part, there is nothing that says he or she knew about any of that, and Cailan knew nothing about the correlation between wardens and darkspawn and the archdemon or he wouldn't have had his father's sword on hand to kill it, knowing it wasn't going to stay dead.

 

The game doesn't even state how she comes by this knowledge, we only have supposition and 'head canon' to go by.  I doubt they learned anything from warden papers, or Loghain (at the very least) wouldn't have been trying to kill the only 2 people capable of ending the Blight. He was all whackadoo about Ferelden and protecting it.  Throwing away the lives of the only two people in the nation capable of ending the darkspawn threat seems pretty stupid and (out of character for him) to me.

 

Even as late as the Landsmeet in the game, he is insisting Gray Wardens aren't necessary, which makes me believe he truly didn't know (and hence, Anora couldn't know--if her knowledge came from the warden papers). Lying through his teeth about that would be counterproductive to saving the country he loves.  If he did know, I could also see him insisting he attempt the Joining to deal with the Archdemon then throwing himself at it once he got a chance.  Loghain is very much a man to cover his own bases when it comes to protecting Ferelden.  He can't even accept his defeat until he sees with his own eyes the Warden knows her stuff and isn't just a child playing at war like Cailan was.  At the very least since he had the means to make wardens on hand, if he had decrypted the papers and knew why they are needed, he would have been making as many of his own loyal Ferelden wardens as fast as he could, something we never hear of in game.  And he certainly acts as surprised as the warden is when Riordan drops his little bombshell. 

 

So, no, I tend to think she knows about the Joining and that's it.  Even the player doesn't know till Riordan tells them.  If she or Loghain know more, the game isn't saying.

 

Actually I forgot one thing which I just saw on my most recent playthrough. If you recruit Loghain he'll be present when Riordan tells you about what it takes to kill the Archdemon and he at least appears to be surprised. So I'll withdraw that part of the claim.

 

The Warden still has an alliance of men, nobles, werewolves/elves, dwarves, mages/templars, and potentially golems at his back. He's been uniting forces and factions even as her father has been dividing the country and focusing on problems other than the immediate and alienating the Warden risks alienating those forces. Its pride before reason or compassion. Pure and simple. All she had to do is throw in behind the warden and she'd be a shoe in at least for Teryna of Gwaren and still have a place in royal dealings most likely.