978 réponses à ce sujet

[daecath]

I choose the ending where Shepard doesn't commit suicide because of unverifiable and fantastical information given by his/her enemy -an enemy that routinely uses lies (indoctrination) to get what they want. Namely, I turn off the game before I reach the end.

[SporkFu]

If it's that bad you could always choose to refuse to use the crucible at all. Same choice but at least you don't have to exit out of the game. Even holo-Liara is better than... nothing. 

[Felya87]

I choose refuse, exit the game before seeing the few scenes, head canon Reapers destroyed with ships, than Citadel party after.

[Mathias]

They all suck pretty badly, Synthesis is for the true dummies out there though.

[Iakus]

If it's that bad you could always choose to refuse to use the crucible at all. Same choice but at least you don't have to exit out of the game. Even holo-Liara is better than... nothing. 

Not really, no.

[Reorte]

It's definitely a risk, but is that worth saving the Geth and over EDI over. IMO, yes, because it might offer a true chance of cooperation we might not have otherwise. AI Shepard might go bonkers, but so could future AI robots, and I place my trust more in Shepard than I do in species who have repeated the same mistakes over millions of cycles, and they might never learn.

Personally I don't trust Control in the slightest. There is both the risk that the Reapers might not necessarily be compelled to follow AI Shep, as well as AI Shep going off the rails. And I'm not keen on a galaxy with the Reapers being held at its head either. A galaxy free to develop itself as it sees fit is the best outcome long-term. Nannying people for their own good is only acceptable for children.

What adds to my concern for Control is that there's no reason whatsoever for it to work. Admittedly this is thinking it through more than the writers did (considering how many even more far-fetched things can happen at the end) but there's really gear there than can scan a creature completely alien to its creators (in a rather crude-looking manner) and simulate that creature accurately? It doesn't seem plausible, so the most likely outcome is a reset Catalyst with a Shepard personality veneer. Maybe if you got a copy of the Shepard VI from Mouse that's what it scanned, so all AI Shepard really is is the Catlayst with a Shepard VI interface...

[chris2365]

Personally I don't trust Control in the slightest. There is both the risk that the Reapers might not necessarily be compelled to follow AI Shep, as well as AI Shep going off the rails. And I'm not keen on a galaxy with the Reapers being held at its head either. A galaxy free to develop itself as it sees fit is the best outcome long-term. Nannying people for their own good is only acceptable for children.

What adds to my concern for Control is that there's no reason whatsoever for it to work. Admittedly this is thinking it through more than the writers did (considering how many even more far-fetched things can happen at the end) but there's really gear there than can scan a creature completely alien to its creators (in a rather crude-looking manner) and simulate that creature accurately? It doesn't seem plausible, so the most likely outcome is a reset Catalyst with a Shepard personality veneer. Maybe if you got a copy of the Shepard VI from Mouse that's what it scanned, so all AI Shepard really is is the Catlayst with a Shepard VI interface...

 

The part in bold was addressed by the EC. Reapers never seem to rebel or whatnot, since from what we know, the Catalyst functions somewhat independently from the Reapers. The ending is called Control for a reason. They are your personal minions, they follow your orders like command prompts. They aren't going to be doing anything out of the ordinary anytime soon.

 

As for your second paragraph, again, we just have to go with what we saw. I know it doesn't make sense that Shepard disintegrated and his memories and conscious was uploaded, but with all the space magic and logic leaps that are in the trilogy, we should just go with what the writers intended, even if it doesn't make much sense. Besides, if you listen to epilogue, you can definitely see that the Catalyst is not really there anymore. It's a real fusion between the cold hard calculations of the AI along with the humanity and experiences of a human. It's a bit like Justice and Anders when they merged in DA2. They are no longer separate, they are now one.

[AlanC9]

I choose the ending where Shepard doesn't commit suicide because of unverifiable and fantastical information given by his/her enemy -an enemy that routinely uses lies (indoctrination) to get what they want. Namely, I turn off the game before I reach the end.

Why not just Refuse, then?

[AlanC9]

Personally I don't trust Control in the slightest. There is both the risk that the Reapers might not necessarily be compelled to follow AI Shep,...

Isn't there a risk of the Crucible not doing what it's supposed to do no matter what you try to do with it? I don't see any reason why Control is different from Destroy in this regard.

[JasonShepard]

...it doesn't make sense that Shepard disintegrated and his memories and conscious was uploaded...

 

Just picking this particular point out, since it's something I see from time to time.

 

There are two points to consider with Shepard being dissolved in order to become an AI. Thematically, to enter the world of the synthetic, it makes sense that you have to leave the organic world behind. Shepard becomes synthetic, so his organic body has to be destroyed in the process.

 

On a practical level, for Shepard to be perfectly uploaded, his body has to be destroyed. It it real-world-impossible to extract all of the information out of an object without destroying it. Quantum physics gives the complicated reason why, but for a short version: If you have all the information about an object, you essentially have the object, and since the object can't be two places at once, the original can no longer exist. Destructive analysis is the only way to achieve perfect accuracy.

 

So, personally, Shepard being dissolved for Control works for me on both a thematic level and a real-world-physics level. But, then again, you shouldn't need to know quantum physics to make sense of a video game...

[chris2365]

Just picking this particular point out, since it's something I see from time to time.

 

There are two points to consider with Shepard being dissolved in order to become an AI. Thematically, to enter the world of the synthetic, it makes sense that you have to leave the organic world behind. Shepard becomes synthetic, so his organic body has to be destroyed in the process.

 

On a practical level, for Shepard to be perfectly uploaded, his body has to be destroyed. It it real-world-impossible to extract all of the information out of an object without destroying it. Quantum physics gives the complicated reason why, but for a short version: If you have all the information about an object, you essentially have the object, and since the object can't be two places at once, the original can no longer exist. Destructive analysis is the only way to achieve perfect accuracy.

 

So, personally, Shepard being dissolved for Control works for me on both a thematic level and a real-world-physics level. But, then again, you shouldn't need to know quantum physics to make sense of a video game...

 

Thanks for the insight. I didn't have a problem with the fact that Shepard became a synthetic, it's just that some are bothered by that sort of space magic, because obviously the game doesn't have time for a little pop-up to explain how quantum physics works. Thankfully, now we have a valid answer.

[DeinonSlayer]

Well, of course you'd think those things. But the question was whether allowing peace at Rannoch helps. I know you like talking about how the endings are bad whenever you can, but that wasn't the issue. (I shuld have realized you were just derailing rather than not reading.)

Note Schumacher's reply to Gaider in the linked thread; he thinks that peace was useful because it implies that the Catalyst might be wrong. While I'm fairly agnostic about Rannoch peace, like I said, I think Schumacher's right there.

The problem there being that autodialogue offers us no opportunity to dispute the Catalyst's assertion. When told that "the chaos will come back" if you pick Destroy, Shepard immediately caves, saying that "there must be another way."

I've said it before, that autodialogue needed to be turned into a branch where you either said there had to be another way, or cite Rannoch - regardless of how that particular arc played out. Basically, instead of giving us the choice between "I won't use the Crucible because it destroys synthetics" and "I won't choose Destroy because the chaos will come back," give us an option to say we're still going to choose it, at which point glowstick tries to sell you on the other two options. We don't need to convince him and I don't expect we could; it's simply the principle of not caving in to an assertion which we have cause to doubt.

They could have done the same with the other two, giving a supportive dialogue option for each choice in addition to rejection and ambivalence.

[SwobyJ]

I chose Destroy (specifically Breath Destroy) because I want my Shepard to wake up, get out of the rubble, and move on.

 

I first chose Synthesis because I am often fascinated by transhuman/posthuman themes and that indulged it for me.

 

There's all sorts of more detailed explanations I could give, but that's what it comes down to. My Destroy action was an ultimately Shepard-selfish act, but done in the more Paragon approach where I had to try to make sure that as many people as I knew would have supported it; including EDI, and the geth to at least some extent.

 

This doesn't mean I utterly reject Reaper-based technology. It means that I prioritized letting the galaxy see that I would punish the Reapers when it most counts.

[AlanC9]

The problem there being that autodialogue offers us no opportunity to dispute the Catalyst's assertion. When told that "the chaos will come back" if you pick Destroy, Shepard immediately caves, saying that "there must be another way."
I've said it before, that autodialogue needed to be turned into a branch where you either said there had to be another way, or cite Rannoch - regardless of how that particular arc played out. Basically, instead of giving us the choice between "I won't use the Crucible because it destroys synthetics" and "I won't choose Destroy because the chaos will come back," give us an option to say we're still going to choose it, at which point glowstick tries to sell you on the other two options. We don't need to convince him and I don't expect we could; it's simply the principle of not caving in to an assertion which we have cause to doubt.
They could have done the same with the other two, giving a supportive dialogue option for each choice in addition to rejection and ambivalence.

Agreed. I don't know what percentage of players liked that dialogue, but it must be damn small. It doesn't generally bother me too much since most of my Shepards don't think that arguing with bizarrely-programmed AIs is a useful activity anyway, but it's pretty crappy.

[atheelogos]

They all suck pretty badly, Synthesis is for the true dummies out there though.

Why do you say this?

[DuskWanderer]

Random. None of them have any saving graces, although I am rather fond of Shepard's LI hugging EDI

[CronoDragoon]

MENext with Control ending canon? 

 

Hah! If I was in charge, it may well be. I love the possibilities that Control opens up for a sequel. Just imagining playing the Duncan or Siona to Shepard's Leto makes me excited for RP possibilities.

 

...Still, when deciding, Leto sticks in my head. On the one hand, he saves humanity from Krazilec. On the other hand, Leto can actually see the goddamn future, and therefore knows exactly which paths lead to the desired end. Shepard doesn't have the benefit of omniscience, but may employ similar millenia-spanning plans for the galaxy that include genocide, genetic manipulation, and other atrocities. "But Crono, if your human Shepard wouldn't do such things, then why worry about the Shepalyst?" Here's the thing: My Paragon Shepard did do such things. He played Arrival. He killed hundreds of thousands of batarians to delay the Reapers. When you extrapolate the "sacrifice the few to save the many" thought process across thousands and thousands of years, you can end up with some pretty scary numbers on the side of "the few."

 

Destroy levels the playing field. Imbalance exists in the galaxy but nothing on the level of a Shepard-controlled Reaper army that also controls the Citadel and therefore all relays. Unfortunately, this means something which would be relatively absent in Control: war. Localized groups will fight for resources as those already in power will mercilessly quell uprisings to maintain it. Relay construction could be slow as home planets devote their time and coin to rebuilding their own worlds first; meanwhile colonies will remain either isolated or fall to nearby home worlds for supplies, and satellites like Omega may even die off completely.

 

And yet...we're still talking in the realm of decades. All that scariness will eventually rebalance to something resembling the Council or some other effort to unify law and order. Soon the galaxy will be recognizable again, and if the players' love of the MEverse is so strong, then it wasn't that bad of a place.

 

But of course there's the geth. Here I am, rationalizing their destruction the same as I did with the batarians, the same as Shepard might in Control of the Reapers. What do their deaths mean for the future of synthetic/organic relations? Say the quarians rebuild the geth: what happens? How do the quarians handle this? How do the geth learn about their place in the world? What happens when they find out about the previous geth? Will they be suspicious of organics, or will they understand Shepard's decision on a numbers-basis (remember, for all anyone else knows it's either use the Crucible or don't)?

 

Finally, there's the question of what I think is the most interesting ending for Mass Effect, which is a separate question from what I would do in Shepard's shoes. The former immediately eliminates Synthesis for me, which is why it's largely been absent from the post. Destroy or Control: which represents a satisfying conclusion to the story I've been telling these last 3 games? Control represents Paragon logic far better than Destroy. Here you are, preventing a current "harm" at the risk of a future, potentially worse event. This logic allows you to cure the genophage and free the rachni queen. Why wouldn't it work here? Besides that, isn't Control Shep just an exaggeration of what Shepard has been doing all series, a hyperbolization of that quality that David Gaider dislikes but which constantly manifests in the series: Shepard sticking his nose where it doesn't belong, Shepard solving problems that aren't really his to solve, being arbiter of fates over which he has no moral grounds?

 

Hell, it's been two years and I still don't know. When it comes down to it, even if Control is the more interesting choice for the story, the second question above wins out. If I were Shepard, I'd shoot the tube, and get rid of the Reapers for good.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The problem there being that autodialogue offers us no opportunity to dispute the Catalyst's assertion. When told that "the chaos will come back" if you pick Destroy, Shepard immediately caves, saying that "there must be another way."

I've said it before, that autodialogue needed to be turned into a branch where you either said there had to be another way, or cite Rannoch - regardless of how that particular arc played out. Basically, instead of giving us the choice between "I won't use the Crucible because it destroys synthetics" and "I won't choose Destroy because the chaos will come back," give us an option to say we're still going to choose it, at which point glowstick tries to sell you on the other two options. We don't need to convince him and I don't expect we could; it's simply the principle of not caving in to an assertion which we have cause to doubt.

They could have done the same with the other two, giving a supportive dialogue option for each choice in addition to rejection and ambivalence.

 

 

You know I would have liked a line:

 

Starbrat: "the chaos will come back."

 

Shepard: "Ask me if I care. Anyone who would want to make a fully self-aware AI is an idiot. Look at those screwups the Leviathans, for example. Any self-aware AI needs to be unplugged. Period. Starting with you."

[SporkFu]

You know I would have liked a line:

 

Starbrat: "the chaos will come back."

 

Shepard: "Ask me if I care. Anyone who would want to make a fully self-aware AI is an idiot. Look at those screwups the Leviathans, for example. Any self-aware AI needs to be unplugged. Period. Starting with you."

Yeah... that kinda gets me too, you know. Nobody's gonna forget what the geth situation was. And certainly nobody's gonna forget the reapers. The galaxy won't see another A.I. for a long time. 

[Farangbaa]

Yeah... that kinda gets me too, you know. Nobody's gonna forget what the geth situation was. And certainly nobody's gonna forget the reapers. The galaxy won't see another A.I. for a long time.

Are you even human?

Cause that's not how we work.

[SporkFu]

Are you even human?

Cause that's not how we work.

Dumb-ass #1: But what about the race of giant A.I. killer space robots that took the entire galaxy to the brink of extinction? 

Dumb-ass #2: That? No worries, man, that happened last year. 

 

Besides, Javik would never let it happen. 

[Farangbaa]

Javik, aah. Was my main man in my last run.. until he voiced discontent about my decision to choose the Geth over the Quarians. He never saw battle again.

Dumb-ass #1: But what about the race of giant A.I. killer space robots that took the entire galaxy to the brink of extinction? 
Dumb-ass #2: That? No worries, man, that happened last year.

Not like that, but more like this:
'Remember that Catalyst thing that subjected the entire galaxy to somekind of whicked experiment?'
'Yeah but the Leviathan were stupid, we will get it right'

[SporkFu]

Javik, aah. Was my main man in my last run.. until he voiced discontent about my decision to choose the Geth over the Quarians. He never saw battle again.


Not like that, but more like this:
'Remember that Catalyst thing that subjected the entire galaxy to somekind of whicked experiment?'
'Yeah but the Leviathan were stupid, we will get it right'

So... you're summing up the reapers from creation through millions and millions of years of harvesting galactic civilizations through destruction as some kind of wicked experiment?  

[Farangbaa]

So... you're summing up the reapers from creation through millions and millions of years of harvesting galactic civilizations through destruction as some kind of wicked experiment?  

 

I'm only repeating what the Creators of the Catalyst said.

 

personally, I'd call it this:

http://wiki.lesswron...rclip_maximizer

[noobcannon]

IT is cannon so i choose destroy.