978 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

A pity there's no "Live and let live, deal with the monsters trying to kill us all" option.

 

Maybe that option lies on one of the two pylons located on the other side of the beam?

[AlanC9]

And another thing, although this is super speculating but something I've been thinking about. As we see in the ending only living creatures seem to be effected by the green; things like basic plastic, metal, stone, and clothing remain unchanged. And in this future people would probably still want to build servants for cheap labor, or to be space janitors, or hubris -- something like that. And because of this wouldn't regular AIs eventually make a come back? And since all this happens after the blast they wouldn't be mixed, since the materials they would be constructed from wouldn't be. It seems like they would just be run-of-the-mill AIs unless there was some lingering aura to transform them when they became alive. Taking this further don't organic species all start from inorganic materials that are spurred on by something like a lightning strike hitting a puddle of primordial ooze? Like the new AIs, wouldn't these new organics also be regular organics since they were made post-blast?

 

So sometime down the road in this new world wouldn't there be both new organics, new AI, and the older mixed life? How would the Catalyst react to this?

 

 

It probably wouldn't matter what the Catalyst thinks -- assuming he even exists post-Synthesis, and that the transformed Reapers continue to obey him. It won't take very long, evolutionarily-speaking, for the Reapers to be surpassed by the civilizations of the galaxy.

[Isac23]

I chose the destroy ending and felt pretty bad about the fact that the geth and EDI were now gone.. for a moment kind of felt I should have picked Synthesis. Then I went on youtube and looked at the Synthesis ending, and I'm very glad I didn't pick that.

 

The problem with the Snythesis ending is the "message" behind it and the fact that it contradicts everything Shepard has accomplished up until this point. All throughout the Mass Effect triology he has served as a peacemaker, he is highly praised (and rightly so) for unifying all different sorts of races, including organics and synthetics, all throughout the galaxy. Shepard was a symbol for unity amidst diversity. Up until this point the game's message is very clear: "We all need each other, independent of our differences. If we put aside our differences, we can achieve great things. We are not the same, but that does not mean we cannot live in peace and work together."

The synthesis ending essentially ruins that by saying "NOPE. THE ONLY WAY THERE WILL EVER BE PEACE IS IF EVERYONE IS EXACTLY THE SAME." Nazi mentality if I ever did see it.

 

Not to mention that it is a false assumption. Firstly because we saw from the geth's union with the quarians that peace between organics and synthetics IS possible. Secondly because unless everyone is actually becoming 100% alike to a tee, there will be wars. And LOTS of them. Hell, in the Mass Effect universe itself (if we exclude the Reapers) we only hear of ONE synthetics vs organics war (geth vs quarians, and it's clear this war only started because the quarians were HUGE dicks) and MANY MORE wars between organics (First Contact War, Rachni Wars, Krogan Rebellion)

 

And don't even get me started on the "this is the ultimate end of evolution" bit... last I checked artificial enhancements has absolutely NOTHING to do with organic evolution. Darwin is rolling in his grave.

[ImaginaryMatter]

It probably wouldn't matter what the Catalyst thinks -- assuming he even exists post-Synthesis, and that the transformed Reapers continue to obey him. It won't take very long, evolutionarily-speaking, for the Reapers to be surpassed by the civilizations of the galaxy.

 

Wouldn't Synthesis affect both of them as well though, so they can also evolve? Are they green in the epilogue?

[SardaukarNL]

Ok slight logic leap there. If Shepard immediately disappear into dark space after rebuilding the galaxy and never returns, how exactly is he controlling evolution? Renegade Shepard I agree with you. For Paragon Shepard, see my explanation in the post you quoted.

 

Well, he obviously would not, but I think Shepard disappearing is not an option. To use your own quote against you: "but soon, your children will create synthetics, and the chaos will come back." So in your way Shepard repairs the damage done with the help of the reapers and then makes himself scarce and the reapers along with him so after a while another synthetic race would be created and organics might be wiped out (or perhaps we see the start of a new kind of reaper cycle).

 

No, a control solution means Sheplyst would have to stay on as overlord indefinitely, regardless if he is paragon or not, in order to step in if ever the need arises (and according to the catalyst it will) to quell another synthetic vs organic war.

 

 

 

We didn't recreate Shepard. Shepard's brain survived the fall through the atmosphere in ME2. His memories, experiences, talents, and abilities are all the exact same as before. The only thing he needed was some advanced cellular reconstruction (get the cells working again) and some bolts and screws to patch him up. It was complex and expensive, yes, but it was doable.

 

Actually, according to the game we did. I quote: "Sir, Shepard is clinically brain-dead". It's precisely why the revival of Shepard is called the Lazerus project by Cerberus.

 

So if we can do it for an organic I don't see why it can be done for a synthetic which should be even easier as, and I divert to the real word for a quick detour, it's far easier to get something back from a broken harddisk then from a human brain.

 

I have no doubt that Shepard fully knows the way Synthetics work. It's all the others I don't trust. Do you really think that Shepard will be there to babysit all sort of AI research? And when Shepard is gone? Will the organic races be able to resist making AI again? Past cycles say 100% chance it will. And without the Geth (first synthetics to have peace with organics) and a special Shepard to unite them all, there is a 100% chance another war will happen again. To quote the Catalyst: ''... but soon, your children will create synthetics, and the chaos will come back.''

 

That's why in 'my' world we would recreate the Geth as they were the first synthetics that came to peace with their organic creators. So even if another synthetic creation arise there would be role model that it's NOT inevitable for the the created to destroy the creators. I would imagine that the Geth even would help put down another synthetic race if that race still would seek to destroy their creators.

 

As I see it it would mean that somewhere in the future there would be a multitude of synthetics all living in peace with their creators and somewhere along the line synthesis would happen naturally without having to be forced by Shepard and it would also mean that Shepard doesn't have to become an immortal guardian.

 

 

Also as an afterthought another reason I don't like the control option. Since the catalyst is basically as near as god as you can get as Shepard has no reason to distrust anything he says. I mean, what threat poses one puny human to this guy? So during the catalyst explanation of the control option he says "You will control us, but you will lose everything you have.".

 

Now you can interpret this in different ways, but seeing we're talking about the fate of the entire galaxy here Shepard would like to err on the side of caution thank you very much. Control of the reapers is all fine and dandy, but ONLY if the values and beliefs the human Shepard has are carried over in whatever Sheplyst is / Shepard becomes and I just heard the Catalyst says the Shepard will lose everything so that might include his humanity. For all Shepard knows he might see it the Reaper way after assuming control. Who knows, it might even be justified, but this whole war was about saving THIS galaxy so it's WAY a big of a risk to take.

[CronoDragoon]

Wouldn't Synthesis affect both of them as well though, so they can also evolve? Are they green in the epilogue?

 

The only enhancement synthetics get is an understanding of organics, if I'm not mistaken. But yeah the geth's light is green, showing they were affected by the wave.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The only enhancement synthetics get is an understanding of organics, if I'm not mistaken. But yeah the geth's light is green, showing they were affected by the wave.

 

The Reapers also have organic bits though, so don't they get the best of both worlds? Although, I guess they're already well integrated with synthetic technology. Eh, that EC expansion on what Synthesis is hurts my head. I had a better grasp on the thing before the Catalyst had more to say about it.

[chris2365]

Well, he obviously would not, but I think Shepard disappearing is not an option. To use your own quote against you: "but soon, your children will create synthetics, and the chaos will come back." So in your way Shepard repairs the damage done with the help of the reapers and then makes himself scarce and the reapers along with him so after a while another synthetic race would be created and organics might be wiped out (or perhaps we see the start of a new kind of reaper cycle).

 

No, a control solution means Sheplyst would have to stay on as overlord indefinitely, regardless if he is paragon or not, in order to step in if ever the need arises (and according to the catalyst it will) to quell another synthetic vs organic war.

 

You're forgetting that the Geth are alive and peaceful with organics in Control. They've managed to cooperate with organics, and no doubt they'll be viewed in a better light since they helped stop the Reapers. They want to learn and understand what organics are like, just look at EDI. They won't have any interest in war, and if there are different synthetics created, no doubt the Geth would want interface with them, and share their experiences. This is the key. This is what will keep future conflicts from happening, this is what will break the cycle of synthetic-organic conflict. And this can only happen with the Geth. Whether Shepard is present with the Reapers or not doesn't make a difference, since he won't have anything to do but watch civilization prosper, thanks to the Geth and their willingness for peace.

 

Actually, according to the game we did. I quote: "Sir, Shepard is clinically brain-dead". It's precisely why the revival of Shepard is called the Lazerus project by Cerberus.

 

So if we can do it for an organic I don't see why it can be done for a synthetic which should be even easier as, and I divert to the real word for a quick detour, it's far easier to get something back from a broken harddisk then from a human brain.

 

Yes, clinically brain-dead means the brain has ceased all regular functions, meaning it can't control parts of the body anymore. That does not mean his memory is gone. In fact, according to the Mass Effect wiki, the Lazarus project involved: '' .... attaching cybernetic implants to reconstruct Shepard's skeleton, reconstruction of the skin, and fluids to restart blood flow and internal organs.'' No mention of restoring memories, fixing brains, etc. And the Illusive Man himself proves this, because when the Miranda wanted to implant a control chip in Shepard, he blocked it, because he was worried that it may affect Shepard's personality and abilities. This proves what's inside that brain is still the real Shepard, it's just deactivated and inoperable. It is definitely not the same for synthetics, who would go through utter destruction and mind wipes (like blank hard drives) thanks to the destroy ending. And you can't restore what's been wiped clean to what it was before, even if you go through the exact same experiences, because they just might decide to act differently. You can never have them back like they were before, and that is the key to peace.

 

That's why in 'my' world we would recreate the Geth as they were the first synthetics that came to peace with their organic creators. So even if another synthetic creation arise there would be role model that it's NOT inevitable for the the created to destroy the creators. I would imagine that the Geth even would help put down another synthetic race if that race still would seek to destroy their creators.

 

As I see it it would mean that somewhere in the future there would be a multitude of synthetics all living in peace with their creators and somewhere along the line synthesis would happen naturally without having to be forced by Shepard and it would also mean that Shepard doesn't have to become an immortal guardian.

 

Like I elaborated in my first point, this is exactly what I proposed. Except I use the real Geth instead of some recreations that won't even be possible to make because of my second point. Only control makes this possible. 

 

 

Also as an afterthought another reason I don't like the control option. Since the catalyst is basically as near as god as you can get as Shepard has no reason to distrust anything he says. I mean, what threat poses one puny human to this guy? So during the catalyst explanation of the control option he says "You will control us, but you will lose everything you have.".

 

Now you can interpret this in different ways, but seeing we're talking about the fate of the entire galaxy here Shepard would like to err on the side of caution thank you very much. Control of the reapers is all fine and dandy, but ONLY if the values and beliefs the human Shepard has are carried over in whatever Sheplyst is / Shepard becomes and I just heard the Catalyst says the Shepard will lose everything so that might include his humanity. For all Shepard knows he might see it the Reaper way after assuming control. Who knows, it might even be justified, but this whole war was about saving THIS galaxy so it's WAY a big of a risk to take.

 

It's pointed out by a Paragon Control Shepard during the EC epilogue that he still very much has his humanity and memories, and he intends to use them for good. Rewatch the control ending if you like, but these quotes prove my point:

 

''His thoughts guide me now. Give me reason, direction''

''And through it all, I will never forget (my story, companions, struggles, etc.)''

''And I will watch over the ones who live on, those who carry the memories of the man I once was, the man who gave up his life to become the one, who could save the many''

 

This is not Catalyst with a Shepard VI skin. This is an AI Shepard, one who changed the values and programming of the Catalyst, became him and used it for good, while remembering everything that lead him to that point. 

[SardaukarNL]

Whether Shepard is present with the Reapers or not doesn't make a difference, since he won't have anything to do but watch civilization prosper, thanks to the Geth and their willingness for peace.

 

We'll both agree on the fact that the Geth are key for a lasting peace between organics and synthetics, it's just the road taken we see differently.

 

Yes, clinically brain-dead means the brain has ceased all regular functions, meaning it can't control parts of the body anymore. That does not mean his memory is gone. In fact, according to the Mass Effect wiki, the Lazarus project involved: '' .... attaching cybernetic implants to reconstruct Shepard's skeleton, reconstruction of the skin, and fluids to restart blood flow and internal organs.'' No mention of restoring memories, fixing brains, etc. And the Illusive Man himself proves this, because when the Miranda wanted to implant a control chip in Shepard, he blocked it, because he was worried that it may affect Shepard's personality and abilities. This proves what's inside that brain is still the real Shepard, it's just deactivated and inoperable. It is definitely not the same for synthetics, who would go through utter destruction and mind wipes (like blank hard drives) thanks to the destroy ending. And you can't restore what's been wiped clean to what it was before, even if you go through the exact same experiences, because they just might decide to act differently. You can never have them back like they were before, and that is the key to peace.

 

 

Like I elaborated in my first point, this is exactly what I proposed. Except I use the real Geth instead of some recreations that won't even be possible to make because of my second point. Only control makes this possible. 

 

From what I read brain dead means the brains hasn't just stopped all regular functions, it's stopped all function. And sure in the ME universe they find a way to jump start his brain again and who knows, it actually might be feasible for real as there is so much we don't know yet about the brain. Perhaps brain dead just means that the brain is frozen in time from it's last conscious thought, waiting to start up again.

 

You assume however that the Geth are fully destroyed and/or getting full mindwipes. That's an assumption on your part as it also possible that the Geth die simply from an overload which kills whatever makes them alive. Again, I don't see any reason why this cannot be reverted just like was done for Sheppard. From my standpoint you just assume that the Geth can't be recreated and I beg to differ. No offense

 

It's pointed out by a Paragon Control Shepard during the EC epilogue that he still very much has his humanity and memories, and he intends to use them for good. Rewatch the control ending if you like, but these quotes prove my point:

 

''His thoughts guide me now. Give me reason, direction''

''And through it all, I will never forget (my story, companions, struggles, etc.)''

''And I will watch over the ones who live on, those who carry the memories of the man I once was, the man who gave up his life to become the one, who could save the many''

 

This is not Catalyst with a Shepard VI skin. This is an AI Shepard, one who changed the values and programming of the Catalyst, became him and used it for good, while remembering everything that lead him to that point. 

 

 

Yeah, I've seen that part several times actually. The point I was trying to make however that there was no way for Shepard to know beforehand that he would actually retain his humanity. Like I said, his assuming control might have stripped him, fully, partly, of his humanity. It's not like there were no concerns as even the illusive man, who understood how the reapers worked better then anyone, wasn't able to hang on to his humanity.

 

In that light, assuming control is imho taking a way to big a risk to perhaps end up the destroyer of the Galaxy instead of being it's savior.

[Iakus]

 

It's pointed out by a Paragon Control Shepard during the EC epilogue that he still very much has his humanity and memories, and he intends to use them for good. Rewatch the control ending if you like, but these quotes prove my point:

 

''His thoughts guide me now. Give me reason, direction''

''And through it all, I will never forget (my story, companions, struggles, etc.)''

''And I will watch over the ones who live on, those who carry the memories of the man I once was, the man who gave up his life to become the one, who could save the many''

 

This is not Catalyst with a Shepard VI skin. This is an AI Shepard, one who changed the values and programming of the Catalyst, became him and used it for good, while remembering everything that lead him to that point. 

 

"His thoughts" not "My thoughts"

 

And while they provide "reason and direction" there is no emotional connection.  No sense of belonging.  No attachment.  This is an AI who essentially uses Shepard's diary as a guide on what to do.  No more Shepard than the Shepard VI

[SwobyJ]

Synthesis is a nice dream. I'll pick it again sometime.

[chris2365]

We'll both agree on the fact that the Geth are key for a lasting peace between organics and synthetics, it's just the road taken we see differently.

 

Totally agree on that.

 

From what I read brain dead means the brains hasn't just stopped all regular functions, it's stopped all function. And sure in the ME universe they find a way to jump start his brain again and who knows, it actually might be feasible for real as there is so much we don't know yet about the brain. Perhaps brain dead just means that the brain is frozen in time from it's last conscious thought, waiting to start up again.

 

Well that's pretty much what happened with Shepard. His brain remained intact until his body was put back together and started working again. Once that happened his brain restarted. It's like an intact hard drive inside a physically broken PC. Replace or fix the CPU, GPU, PSU, RAM, and motherboard, remake those connections, and the hard drive can be accessed like before.

 

On the other hand...

 

You assume however that the Geth are fully destroyed and/or getting full mindwipes. That's an assumption on your part as it also possible that the Geth die simply from an overload which kills whatever makes them alive. Again, I don't see any reason why this cannot be reverted just like was done for Sheppard. From my standpoint you just assume that the Geth can't be recreated and I beg to differ. No offense

 

None taken. I enjoy having civilized debates, especially with something as sensitive as the endings 

 

As for the Geth, it is by the Catalyst that all synthetics will be destroyed. I see your point about them not getting full mind wipes, and that's reasonable. They are however, at the very least dead and deactivated. If you remember playing ME1, you might also remember that, upon death, the Geth wipe their memory cores clean, as a defense mechanism.

 

You can't simply restore a blank hard drive. They are indirectly getting memory wipes as a side effect from the Destroy blast. Difference between Shepard and the Geth is that Shepard's hard drive (brain) is intact and just needs power and the on switch. For the Geth, you might as well be turning on a flashlight  . And without their experiences and personalities they will be impossible to recreate. Simple as that. The Geth are gone.

 

Yeah, I've seen that part several times actually. The point I was trying to make however that there was no way for Shepard to know beforehand that he would actually retain his humanity. Like I said, his assuming control might have stripped him, fully, partly, of his humanity. It's not like there were no concerns as even the illusive man, who understood how the reapers worked better then anyone, wasn't able to hang on to his humanity.

 

In that light, assuming control is imho taking a way to big a risk to perhaps end up the destroyer of the Galaxy instead of being it's savior.

 

If that's the case, what makes you think we can trust the Catalyst at all? How do you know that shooting the Destroy tube isn't the off power switch for the Crucible? With hindsight we can know, but before hand, you just have to go with what he says. As for ending up the destroyer and losing his humanity like the Illusive man, that happened because of indoctrination from the Reapers. While Shepard might be their leader, he is now an AI, and can't be indoctrinated. What he is now is what he will remain. An AI with set values, objectives, and goals.

[RatThing]

Destroy ending is the one I consider right. I would neither want to be ruled by giant cuttlefish nor being turned into a green zombie so computer programs could "understand" me. The galaxy remains free, the biggest threat for its inhabitants is truly and forever gone and if some spooky evolution into half mashines is really inevitable, then the people will achieve that on their own terms and not because "space jebus" jumped into a green beam. Also the potential "downside" of picking destroy doesn't really matter to me.

I have to admit though that I also like to pick control for two reasons. One, this ending is very very well done. I love the voice acting here, especially from Jennifer Hale. Two, I like the idea of a dramatic ending where Shepard finally gets corrupted by greed for power and therefore picks control. 

Synthesis, well I picked it once out of curiosity and that's it. It's wrong, it's weird,  it's not as well done as the other two so I don't pick it. 

Refuse isn't really an option for me as long as I have destroy.  I think it's funny and strange though that it gets triggered when you shoot the catalyst. Does anyone know what the reason for this is?

[Sir DeLoria]

Hell, in the Mass Effect universe itself (if we exclude the Reapers) we only hear of ONE synthetics vs organics war (geth vs quarians, and it's clear this war only started because the quarians were HUGE dicks) and MANY MORE wars between organics (First Contact War, Rachni Wars, Krogan Rebellion)

I agree with parts of your post, but that's not true. There are multiple synthetic vs organic conflicts in the ME universe, for example the conflict Javik tells us about where a sentient species in his cycle was wiped out by their creations or the footage we see in the Citadel archives of a minor synthetic rebellion aboard the Citadel. The Quarians are also not solely to blame for that ordeal of a conflict, while they may have started it, the Geth were just as resposibe for the horrible outcome and just as responsible for the later conflicts they endured with organics.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Anyone else see the irony here? People insist the Catalyst's assertions are wrong, but then reason along the same lines against Control and Synthesis -- that we are not capable/ready/whatever to make peace with this synthetic species and/or its new overlord.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Synthesis - The Catalyst solves the problem of organics and synthetics not getting along with each other by eliminating both of them. By creating organic-synthetic hybrids there is no more organic vs. synthetic chaos for the Catalyst to worry about. Whether or not these new things destroy the galaxy is no longer its problem since it no longer exists in its past form either. The Catalyst dodges the question Shepard asks "And there will be peace?" Instead it answers "The Cycle will end."

 

The reapers will be gone if the next game is a sequel even if they use this one. All 50,000 of them will go off somewhere through a relay and lock it, permanently.

 

Control - Blah blah blah.... the reapers fix the relays then leave to dark space. Shepard watches the galaxy with his sentinel reaper. It's like the old days. You have 50,000 years. Who cares?

 

Destroy - We fix the relays ourselves and get on with life.

 

The end result - all the endings were virtually identical except for the color of the explosions on your screen: Shepard dies, the relays got damaged, and the Normandy crashed.

 

That's how everything gets reconciled for the sequel.

[Isac23]

I agree with parts of your post, but that's not true. There are multiple synthetic vs organic conflicts in the ME universe, for example the conflict Javik tells us about where a sentient species in his cycle was wiped out by their creations or the footage we see in the Citadel archives of a minor synthetic rebellion aboard the Citadel. The Quarians are also not solely to blame for that ordeal of a conflict, while they may have started it, the Geth were just as resposibe for the horrible outcome and just as responsible for the later conflicts they endured with organics.

 

I'll give you that, but you have to remember that the war Javik mentioned was in a completely different cycle.

And judging by what Javik said in that same cycle the Protheans pretty much declared a constant, all out war on the galaxy. Either people submitted to them or were enslaved by them during their cycle. 

So while in OUR cycle the single snythetic war we had was the Geth Wars and then about 3 or 4 organic wars, in Javik's cycle it was more like 1 synthetic war that happened once then was over and 1 constant, ongoing, endless war waged by organics (in this case, the Protheans). Either way you look at it organics are always presented as being the most ruthless, unreasonable and warmongering throughout the trilogy.

 

I also don't agree that the Geth were "just as responsible" for anything. The one who acts in self defense is never "just as responsible" as the one who initates the attack without justifiable cause. This is true even in a court of law. Hell, the Geth could have even destroyed the Quarians while they were fleeing as clearly stated by Legion, but chose to let them get away, because all they wanted was to not be attacked anymore.

[Isac23]

 Anyone else see the irony here? People insist the Catalyst's assertions are wrong, but then reason along the same lines against Control and Synthesis -- that we are not capable/ready/whatever to make peace with this synthetic species and/or its new overlord.

 

It's not that we are "not capable/ready/whatever" to make peace with this synthetic species and/or its new overlord.

It's that we are "not capable/ready/whatever" to make peace with genocidal maniacs.

[SardaukarNL]

As for the Geth, it is by the Catalyst that all synthetics will be destroyed. I see your point about them not getting full mind wipes, and that's reasonable. They are however, at the very least dead and deactivated. If you remember playing ME1, you might also remember that, upon death, the Geth wipe their memory cores clean, as a defense mechanism.

 

You can't simply restore a blank hard drive. They are indirectly getting memory wipes as a side effect from the Destroy blast. Difference between Shepard and the Geth is that Shepard's hard drive (brain) is intact and just needs power and the on switch. For the Geth, you might as well be turning on a flashlight  . And without their experiences and personalities they will be impossible to recreate. Simple as that. The Geth are gone.

 

Yeah, but I think also remember that, although rare, sometimes bits and pieces of it could be reconstructed.

 

And blank? That's up for debate. LIke I pointed out earlier the Geth death might not be in the form of a wipe at all, but even if it is. Even IRL you can format a drive and still be able to salvage data off it. In my eyes it basically boils down to the fact that we have the quarians that build the Geth and have been fighting them, well even during the Reaper assault so we have a very good knowledge base, and we should have access to tons of deactivated Geth we can use to some degree to recreate them. You see it differently, but for me personally this way the destruction option works out best. The Reapers gone, we get the Geth back up again so we have a lasting peace between organics and synthetics and Shepard is alive and can finally set down with Liara (or whoever got your fancy). But to each his/her own.

 

 

If that's the case, what makes you think we can trust the Catalyst at all? How do you know that shooting the Destroy tube isn't the off power switch for the Crucible? With hindsight we can know, but before hand, you just have to go with what he says. As for ending up the destroyer and losing his humanity like the Illusive man, that happened because of indoctrination from the Reapers. While Shepard might be their leader, he is now an AI, and can't be indoctrinated. What he is now is what he will remain. An AI with set values, objectives, and goals.

 

There was no reason for the Catalyst to lie. If the Catalyst wanted Shepard dead to preserve the Reapers and continue the cycle I'm sure he could have snuffed Shepard out of existence with no problem at all. Hell, the Catalyst helped Shepard get up there by way of that floating platform while he just as easy could have had him remain next to Anderson while slaughtering the combined fleets. And what since the Catalyst controls the Reapers what was stopping him of having a couple of Reapers shoot the crucible to bits? If he really wanted to he could have done that without the fleet really being able to stop them.

 

And like you say, he becomes an AI. And yes, he can't be indoctrinated, but there is at least the possibility that when he has become an AI that he sees things differently when he was only human. Perhaps with the knowledge of millions of years of Reaper harvest he will to see this harvest as the only way to make sure organics can survive. My Shepard would reason this is to big a risk to take. It was his mission to save this galaxy and the way with the less, immediate, risk is by destroying the Reapers.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It's not that we are "not capable/ready/whatever" to make peace with this synthetic species and/or its new overlord.
It's that we are "not capable/ready/whatever" to make peace with genocidal maniacs.

That pretty much sounds like the quarians' reasoning for their wars with geth.

[Isac23]

That pretty much sounds like the quarians' reasoning for their wars with geth.

 

What?

 

Do you know the definition of the word genocide?

The Geth never committed genocide. Not once. Nor did the Quarians ever imply that they had.

The Reapers, on the other hand, have. Many, many, many times. We do not have to speculate about this, it is a fact. They openly boast about it.

[Sir DeLoria]

I'll give you that, but you have to remember that the war Javik mentioned was in a completely different cycle.

How exactly does that matter?

And judging by what Javik said in that same cycle the Protheans pretty much declared a constant, all out war on the galaxy. Either people submitted to them or were enslaved by them during their cycle.
So while in OUR cycle the single snythetic war we had was the Geth Wars and then about 3 or 4 organic wars, in Javik's cycle it was more like 1 synthetic war that happened once then was over and 1 constant, ongoing, endless war waged by organics (in this case, the Protheans). Either way you look at it organics are always presented as being the most ruthless, unreasonable and warmongering throughout the trilogy.

That's largely speculation, Javik and the codex entries on the Protheans say, that they conquered other alien species, but there was no state of constant war that you're speaking of.

I also don't agree that the Geth were "just as responsible" for anything. The one who acts in self defense is never "just as responsible" as the one who initates the attack without justifiable cause. This is true even in a court of law. Hell, the Geth could have even destroyed the Quarians while they were fleeing as clearly stated by Legion, but chose to let them get away, because all they wanted was to not be attacked anymore.

You do realize that the Geth slaughtered 99% of the Quarian civilian population and used multiple WMDs, right? It was self-defense at first, but let's say the Geth kinda took it way too far.

The Geth never committed genocide. Not once. Nor did the Quarians ever imply that they had.
The Reapers, on the other hand, have. Many, many, many times. We do not have to speculate about this, it is a fact. They openly boast about it.

Actually yes, their actions in the Morning War were absolutely genocidal, when they started deliberately killing non-combatants. Even if they spared a few, driving the entirety of the Quarian(and any other organics for that matter) population off the planet is already genocidal.

Actually, let's drop this argument, no need to make this thread another Geth-Quarian discussion again

[Reorte]

 Anyone else see the irony here? People insist the Catalyst's assertions are wrong, but then reason along the same lines against Control and Synthesis -- that we are not capable/ready/whatever to make peace with this synthetic species and/or its new overlord.

Since I've never seen anyone reason along those lines, no. Point me at the time where there's a chance for an amicable agreement as opposed to an imposed one.

[Isac23]

How exactly does that matter?

 

It matters because in our cycle the number of known organic/organic vs synthetic/organic wars is about 4 to 1. 

If you start including synthetic/synthetic wars that happened in other cycles into the equation and simply don't consider the organic/organic wars that also possibly happened, well that's just a little bit unfair isn't it.

 

 

That's largely speculation, Javik and the codex entries on the Protheans say, that they conquered other alien species, but there was no state of constant war that you're speaking of.

 

Ok then, let's go with that. The Protheans "conquered" other species.

Even if war was not constant, for the Protheans to be able to "conquer" another alien species, it has to wage a war.

Let's be crazy conservative here and say that the Protheans only conequered TWO alien species.

That's still ONE more war than the synthetics that wiped out their creators that Javik mentioned.

 

 

You do realize that the Geth slaughtered 99% of the Quarian civilian population and used multiple WMDs, right? It was self-defense at first, but let's say the Geth kinda took it way too far.


Actually yes, their actions in the Morning War were absolutely genocidal, when they started deliberately killing non-combatants. Even if they spared a few, driving the entirety of the Quarian(and any other organics for that matter) population off the planet is already genocidal.

 

It's funny how you emphasize the fact that the Geth attacked civilians when the Geth didn't even HAVE an army, so they were all civilians.

You seem to think that the Morning War was some kind of by the book war, with one army vs another army. It wasn't. It was the Geth reacting to the Quarian's attempt to eliminate all Geth off the face of the earth. That's why the war started in the first place! Before the Quarians started killing Geth for no reason, not a single Geth had even ever picked up a gun.  

 

If anyone was "absolutely genocidal" in all this, it was the Quarians.

[Sir DeLoria]

Ok then, let's go with that. The Protheans "conquered" other species.
Even if war was not constant, for the Protheans to be able to "conquer" another alien species, it has to wage a war.
Let's be crazy conservative here and say that the Protheans only conequered TWO alien species.
That's still ONE more war than the synthetics that wiped out their creators that Javik mentioned.

Sounds kinda like you're making this into a contest, well it's not. I never said organic conflicts were any less frequent than synthetic-organic conflicts, but the point stands that they do exist. And if they happen they're evidently far, far more destructive than most organic wars.

 

It's funny how you emphasize the fact that the Geth attacked civilians when the Geth didn't even HAVE an army, so they were all civilians.
You seem to think that the Morning War was some kind of by the book war, with one army vs another army. It wasn't. It was the Geth reacting to the Quarian's attempt to eliminate all Geth off the face of the earth. That's why the war started in the first place! Before the Quarians started killing Geth for no reason, not a single Geth had even ever picked up a gun.  
 
If anyone was "absolutely genocidal" in all this, it was the Quarians.

I know all of that and I know that the Morning War was far from conventional. All of that doesn't change the crimes the Geth committed one bit though. You seem to be under the impression that civilians killing civilians is somehow more redeemable than a standing army killing civilians. Not that it matters much, because that's exactly what the Geth became once the war had progressed far enough.

Also yes, the Quarian government had reasons to shut down the Geth, however flawed they might've been:

1) Sentient machines were strictly against council law and the Quarians would've suffered severe repercussions if the Geth sentience had been discovered
2) They feared an imminent Geth rebellion and wanted to prevent it

And yes, the Quarians were attempting genocide, so did the Geth, only they were more succesful.