Benezia never had the chance to become a robot though. Beside the mechanics of Control and the Crucible are unexplained anyway so I think you can get away with pretty much anything. Just have some character explain that the knobs reverse Indoctrination.
Indoctrination is permane ... eh, nevermind.
Indoctrination is permane ... eh, nevermind.
Reverse was probably the wrong word. Point is TIM would no longer be organic, thus the organic only Indoctrination would stop working.
TIM as he stands in ME3 right now is pretty terrible, as he's Indoctrinated, except when he's not (not to mention how he got Indoctrinated and where ME2 fits into all of that). And even then his Indoctrination logic is too small of a fig leaf to explain all his actions. In his acting he would be playing out some other Indoctrinated goal that would make his actions, like invading everywhere, more coherent; although all his conversations would have to be changed as well, perhaps he would only tell Shepard of his plan earlier if Shepard had more of a rapport with him.
His rational for not joining the Council and/or the Alliance was because he knew they would not stand for the experiments on Sanctuary; and that by moving out into the open he would have too many watchful eyes to try a last minute fast one. The explanation for attacking everything would be to play the part that he was Indoctrinated so he could continue to get his hands on the Reaper tech needed to retrace the signal to get the Control option to work. So basically he couldn't join the organics because they wouldn't trust him and he needed to be chummy with the Reapers so they would continue to lend him research materials.
I think it would be better conclusion to his character than Indoctrination induced Stupid Evil, replacing it instead with ruthless pragmatism. Plus it would help the ending by not having every option presented by the Catalyst. Personally, I think it also would have better delivered on all the build up every post Cerberus conversation had about TIM having a plan, instead of just being Indoctrinated. It's not perfect. It is trading nonsense for nonsense. But I do think it is a slight improvement.
My thought is, if TIM -- and by extension, Cerberus -- joined forces with the rest of the galaxy to fight the fight the reapers from the beginning, he never would've had to conduct those experiments on Horizon in the first place. He could have helped build the crucible, connect it to the catalyst, and then seize control of the reapers at the end.
My thought is, if TIM -- and by extension, Cerberus -- joined forces with the rest of the galaxy to fight the fight the reapers from the beginning, he never would've had to conduct those experiments on Horizon in the first place. He could have helped build the crucible, connect it to the catalyst, and then seize control of the reapers at the end.
The experiments on Sanctuary would be necessary for unlocking Control though. This version wouldn't have the electrical knobs and would instead rely on the control signal TIM discovered from the results on Sanctuary. It would go down by having TIM and Shepard fiddling around with the machinery, hacking, beating up the Catalyst, etc.
The experiments on Sanctuary would be necessary for unlocking Control though. This version wouldn't have the electrical knobs and would instead rely on the control signal TIM discovered from the results on Sanctuary. It would go down by having TIM and Shepard fiddling around with the machinery, hacking, beating up the Catalyst, etc.
Hmm... well, TIM could still get away with the experiments for quite awhile. Nobody knew what was happening on Horizon until shep and crew got there and saw Miranda's messages. TIM would just have to be even sneakier about it.
Guest_xray16_*
If Destroy only affected the reapers very very few would have selected Control or Synthesis.
Yes -- exactly!
Why would that be a bad thing? Most games only have one ending.
There's a level where I think about that forced decision at the end, and that part of it is about being forced to make peace with the reapers. Become one with them (synthesis) or become part of (and endorse) them (control). The "wipe them out" was given a moral threshold that would be unacceptably high to some players.
Regardless, whichever choice, the end came through the triggering of a superweapon and pressing a button. Not defeating a bad guy, or out-witting/out-reasoning an adversary.... a software interface said "thats the way it is and you can have one of these three". It may as well have been radio buttons on a modal pop-up dialog box. Or maybe clippy from Office 2000 "it looks like you're trying to save the galaxy - would you like some help?".
I didn't earn my ending - "clippy" let me have one of the three that were available. And that's why it tasted of ashes. All that pointless waste.
Thinking about it more, the superweapon had already been triggered. The crucible only let you talk to it. Reminds me of a game I had on My Acorn Electron many years ago, based on the film Dark Star. You had to try and talk a malfunctioning AI Thermostellar Bomb out of detonating.
Let there be light.
Why would that be a bad thing? Most games only have one ending.
There's a level where I think about that forced decision at the end, and that part of it is about being forced to make peace with the reapers. Become one with them (synthesis) or become part of (and endorse) them (control). The "wipe them out" was given a moral threshold that would be unacceptably high to some players.
Regardless, whichever choice, the end came through the triggering of a superweapon and pressing a button. Not defeating a bad guy, or out-witting/out-reasoning an adversary.... a software interface said "thats the way it is and you can have one of these three". It may as well have been radio buttons on a modal pop-up dialog box. Or maybe clippy from Office 2000 "it looks like you're trying to save the galaxy - would you like some help?".
I didn't earn my ending - "clippy" let me have one of the three that were available. And that's why it tasted of ashes. All that pointless waste.
Thinking about it more, the superweapon had already been triggered. The crucible only let you talk to it. Reminds me of a game I had on My Acorn Electron many years ago, based on the film Dark Star. You had to try and talk a malfunctioning AI Thermostellar Bomb out of detonating.
Let there be light.
Ending-o-tron endings are a terrible way to end a game. It's just such a lazy and uninspiring mechanic (or lack of).
More thoughts on the phrase:
Catalyst: “the creation will eventually rebel against its creator”
In my view, that is the synthetic attempting to preserve itself. Instead of stamping out the rebellion (synthetics) Catalyst is dancing around the issue that if organics were allowed to evolve, then those organics could dismiss them with a thought – so keep them primitive. Alternatively if synthetics could self-evolve (not network-evolve), then synthetics could dismiss organics with a thought.
If the phrase was true, then the Geth would rebel ONLY against Quarians – and they don’t. The “heretic” Geth set traps & kill humans, turians, asari, and other organics that are NOT their creators.
The statement is flooded with superfluous & non sequitur words. In reality:
Any sentient being will oppose an oppressive rule. It [obviously] doesn't matter if either end is synthetic or organic.
It doesn’t matter who the created are -- or who the creator is. The words “the creation” and “its creator” can be thrown in but doesn't add anything to the situation.
In the reapers case, they didn't create ANYTHING so Catalyst’s statement is nonsense. Self preservation.
Oh,yes -- they created the mass relays & Citadel -- which haven't rebelled (yet).
Think about it:
If the statement is true
-and-
Catalyst created the reapers
-and-
MIL-yuns & MIL-yuns of years have passed
-then-
Your upper left brain logic circuits would conclude that --
Catalyst & reapers would be at war with each other.
Ending-o-tron endings are a terrible way to end a game. It's just such a lazy and uninspiring mechanic (or lack of).
You know it's funny, I just finished Deus Ex: Human Revolution Director's Cut with the commentary on. Turned out the "push a button to get an ending" wasn't their original plan. Their original idea was more like the first game, where you had to go around the complex and complete various objectives in order to get the desired ending to trigger. The button-pushing was a result of lack of time/resources.
I wonder what ME3's reason is?
You know it's funny, I just finished Deus Ex: Human Revolution Director's Cut with the commentary on. Turned out the "push a button to get an ending" wasn't their original plan. Their original idea was more like the first game, where you had to go around the complex and complete various objectives in order to get the desired ending to trigger. The button-pushing was a result of lack of time/resources.
I wonder what ME3's reason is?
Probably much the same. Earth (really everything after Thessia) feels rushed.
Until Sovereign showed up, the geth hadn't shown interest in anyone else, even the quarians -- whom they allowed to escape Rannoch -- unless they crossed the Perseus Veil. And they maintained this disintetest for hundreds of years. Although there is no way to be 100% sure this would have continued indefinitely, the evidence up to Sovereign's arrival suggests that it would have.More thoughts on the phrase:
Catalyst: “the creation will eventually rebel against its creator”
In my view, that is the synthetic attempting to preserve itself. Instead of stamping out the rebellion (synthetics) Catalyst is dancing around the issue that if organics were allowed to evolve, then those organics could dismiss them with a thought – so keep them primitive. Alternatively if synthetics could self-evolve (not network-evolve), then synthetics could dismiss organics with a thought.
If the phrase was true, then the Geth would rebel ONLY against Quarians – and they don’t. The “heretic” Geth set traps & kill humans, turians, asari, and other organics that are NOT their creators.
The statement is flooded with superfluous & non sequitur words. In reality:
Any sentient being will oppose an oppressive rule. It [obviously] doesn't matter if either end is synthetic or organic.
It doesn’t matter who the created are -- or who the creator is. The words “the creation” and “its creator” can be thrown in but doesn't add anything to the situation.
In the reapers case, they didn't create ANYTHING so Catalyst’s statement is nonsense. Self preservation.
Oh,yes -- they created the mass relays & Citadel -- which haven't rebelled (yet).
You know it's funny, I just finished Deus Ex: Human Revolution Director's Cut with the commentary on. Turned out the "push a button to get an ending" wasn't their original plan. Their original idea was more like the first game, where you had to go around the complex and complete various objectives in order to get the desired ending to trigger. The button-pushing was a result of lack of time/resources.
I wonder what ME3's reason is?
Maybe they were trying to imitate DE:HR? To me ME3's ending is eerily similar to that game (even down to the annoying final confrontation with TIM/Zhao), like the only reason Synthesis was in there was to complete the triangle.
Guest_xray16_*
Ending-o-tron endings are a terrible way to end a game. It's just such a lazy and uninspiring mechanic (or lack of).
Indeed - But is that an endorsement for clippy the ending drop-down? :-)
Back on point - I didn't say I liked games with only one ending - but my question was "if there was an ending more people might be likely to choose why would that be so bad?"
As recent reference - I've played through infamous second son to see both main outcomes. On an emotional level I found the "renegade" version of infamous really diificult to stomach. As another data point Wolfenstein's different timelimes were far more grey, but that affected the journey more than the ending. For an FPS, BLOPS2 was very interesting from a branching story outcome - a first for that franchise. DeusEx:HR had basically the same end as ME3. Lost interest in Watch Dogs as it was clearly just another re-skinned GTA clone. At least Max Payne ended up on a beach in a bar with a beer :-)
Probably much the same. Earth (really everything after Thessia) feels rushed.
I think Cronos station was designed fairly early in development, before the rush really kicked in. Except for involving Cerberus, it is one of the better designed levels in the entire game.
Cronos Station is awesome. Love just about everything in it.
Cronos Station is awesome. Love just about everything in it.
Sure. It's actually colorful, with varying color schemes to boot; there's a mix of enemy types and combat areas; and there are a little breaks from shooting things to get some brief but interesting character and story development (even though most of them involved Cerberus). It also has the least infuriating Kai Leng encounter as his cutscene powers are reduced.
The level would be perfect if not for Cerberus... and that whole ME2 plot thing hanging in there.
Until Sovereign showed up, the geth hadn't shown interest in anyone else, even the quarians -- whom they allowed to escape Rannoch -- unless they crossed the Perseus Veil. And they maintained this disintetest for hundreds of years. Although there is no way to be 100% sure this would have continued indefinitely, the evidence up to Sovereign's arrival suggests that it would have.
In ME1 there were numerous traps the Geth set. In one mission, there was a ship adrift with husks aboard. One of the squadmates said "I guess this is a warning from the Geth that this will happen if you get too close". Looks like "rebellion to me". Any organic entering Geth space is target. But I see your point
I believe this is more of a TERRITORIAL issue than a BEHAVIOR pattern. In self-preservation, the "heretics" would slaughter any organic encountered regardless where. I've updated my original statement #483 (that you probably didn't see) to include:
Sure. It's actually colorful, with varying color schemes to boot; there's a mix of enemy types and combat areas; and there are a little breaks from shooting things to get some brief but interesting character and story development (even though most of them involved Cerberus). It also has the least infuriating Kai Leng encounter as his cutscene powers are reduced.
The level would be perfect if not for Cerberus.
I'm cool with Cerberus, so it's a big package of win for me, really. Good detail listing, though!
I'm cool with Cerberus, so it's a big package of win for me, really. Good detail listing, though!
It's the little things in life.
Although I'm starting to doubt my Cerberus rebuking. Almost all of my favorite levels in ME3 involve Cerberus (Cronos Station, Grissom Academy [w or w/o Jack], Omega missions, Cerberus Abductions, Leviathan missions).
Chronos wasn't bad. Too bad Miranda couldn't be on the mission
The part with Kai Leng I didn't like. He has to do his ayhhh 3 times before I could kill him
It's the little things in life.
Although I'm starting to doubt my Cerberus rebuking. Almost all of my favorite levels in ME3 involve Cerberus (Cronos Station, Grissom Academy [w or w/o Jack], Omega missions, Cerberus Abductions, Leviathan missions).
Ha. Maybe you just enjoy blowing them to smithereens a great deal because you don't enjoy their part in the narrative? 
Chronos wasn't bad. Too bad Miranda couldn't be on the mission
The part with Kai Leng I didn't like. He has to do his ayhhh 3 times before I could kill him
I know, I almost thought she would walk out of the shadows at some point; it would have been like poetry where it sort of rhymes.
During the Kai Leng scene I was thinking, "Does any one want to walk up and make he's dead? EDI? Anyone? I can still hear him breathing. No? We're all just going to burn our retinas staring into this sun?"
Any way what's up with that sun? People are constantly staring into it and all I can think of is visiting my optometrist.
And here I thought I was the only one that really loved the Cronos station mission. I even enjoyed the final fight with Kai Leng, despite his being diminished drastically by not having much of a character to engage you with in the story.
"SHUT UP!" He's such a grown up.
And here I thought I was the only one that really loved the Cronos station mission. I even enjoyed the final fight with Kai Leng, despite his being diminished drastically by not having much of a character to engage you with in the story.
"SHUT UP!" He's such a grown up.
I think it's wonderful from a game design perspective.
From a story one... not so much.
I don't really have much of an issue with it story-wise either. If Priority: Earth was a far better-designed endgame for ME3, I'd consider Cronos the nigh perfect point-of-no-return mission to start it off.
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