978 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

While I don't really see how Control is immoral in and of itself, it's one of those things where I can totally see resistance groups refusing to accept the reapers' presence for many years, and hunting parties dispatching what's left of the reaper monsters, because f*ck zombies. After all, they did just recently kill people by the millions. That they're suddenly benevolent doesn't really instill a great deal of faith that they'll stay that way forever, especially since most have no way to know that Shepard is the one controlling them. Massive cults are another thing I can see sprouting up left and right as well, especially since disaster on that scale would leave many people finding all sorts of ways to cope.

[Farangbaa]

While I don't really see how Control is immoral in and of itself, it's one of those things where I can totally see resistance groups refusing to accept the reapers' presence for many years, and hunting parties dispatching what's left of the reaper monsters, because f*ck zombies. After all, they did just recently kill people by the millions. That they're suddenly benevolent doesn't really instill a great deal of faith that they'll stay that way forever, especially since most have no way to know that Shepard is the one controlling them.

 

I think that them repairing all the relays should solve the issue of trust.

 

Besides, the Reapers didn't lounge around 24/7 all day every day while the Catalyst was in charge, I see no reason why this would change if Shepard's the Catalyst,

[Ieldra]

About Control:
As I see it, having power is not immoral, not even the power to be a one-man police state. It all depends on what you do with it. Even if you go Renegade and become God-Empress of the galaxy, well, you won't end up there without breaking some eggs, but there actually is such a thing as a benevolent dicatorship, and the stronger focus on force rather than diplomacy is problematic because it suggests you'll use that force for personal gain rather than for the benefit of the whole, but it's not immoral as such.


@Psychevore:
As for the Reapers, you keep them enslaved. You may consider it necessary, or consider it justice, but it remains problematic, especially since it is suggested that they were under the Catalyst's control all the time. Though I guess that's not what RiptideX1090 meant...

[KaiserShep]

I think that them repairing all the relays should solve the issue of trust.

 

I disagree. Instead of trust, what I imagine there would be first would be complacency, as people gradually get used to it. You can build the relays, repave the roads, rebuild the infrastructure, and people will still mistrust. Imagine if someone broke into your home, and killed your family and then reduced the house to cinders. If that same person turned around and built you a new house, trust is probably the least likely thing you'd be willing to dole out. However logical one may think it is to just trust the reapers after they start rebuilding things doesn't matter, because if there's one thing I am entirely certain of, it's that people in general are totally illogical by nature. They'll cast about and worry, create small groups of fanatics. There would be suicide cults and crazy resistance groups that may blow up any building the reapers helped reassemble, because that's what people do, and we're frakkin' crazy.

 

I am convinced that trust is only something that can come along after the first generation to deal with the reapers dies off, and is replaced by the next, kind of like how people became used to seeing spaceships over their cities in Childhood's End.

 

 

 

Besides, the Reapers didn't lounge around 24/7 all day every day while the Catalyst was in charge, I see no reason why this would change if Shepard's the Catalyst,

 

It's not really a matter of what the reapers themselves will do, just how everyone else would perceive them and how most would be ignorant of the fact that Shepard took control over them, that is, unless Harbingard went from world to world to announce in a big booming voice just what happened on the Citadel.

[RiptideX1090]

About Control:
As I see it, having power is not immoral, not even the power to be a one-man police state. It all depends on what you do with it. Even if you go Renegade and become God-Empress of the galaxy, well, you won't end up there without breaking some eggs, but there actually is such a thing as a benevolent dicatorship, and the stronger focus on force rather than diplomacy is problematic because it suggests you'll use that force for personal gain rather than for the benefit of the whole, but it's not immoral as such.


@Psychevore:
As for the Reapers, you keep them enslaved. You may consider it necessary, or consider it justice, but it remains problematic, especially since it is suggested that they were under the Catalyst's control all the time. Though I guess that's not what RiptideX1090 meant...

 

Right, it depends on what you do with it. Only... we don't get to do anything with it. If we actually had some agency in deciding what we do with the Reaper Fleet when we had it, sure, I might take that option. But we don't. Shepard is dead, and a copy of him is running the show, and you can't really say a dictatorship, even a benevolent one is not immoral. Well, actually, you could, but anyone else can say it IS immoral, and neither party is wrong because it's a matter of opinion. While to you it might not seem immoral, to me it is. Hence why as Control stands, I won't pick it for MY Shepard (as I said before, I do pick it for some of my Renegades). Putting myself in Shepard's shoes and making that decision, I don't want to die, and I don't want the Reapers to still be around while a VI copy of myself tells them what's right and what's wrong, because I know for a fact that if the world ran on what I thought was right and wrong, the amount of injustice that would go on would end up being staggering (because I'm not always right and I acknowledge that).

 

I don't like any of the endings. Thematically, I actually like Control the best as it fits the idea of a Renegade ending the best (Renegade in theory was always about Shepard going to any lengths to ensure peace and/or put humanity on top, and making Shepard an immortal construct with limitless power is pretty much the furthest possible extension of that), but I go with Destroy because I don't understand Synthesis enough to know what it does and I never sought Control. I fought to blow the Reapers up and am content with the idea that my Shepard got to live out his golden years in peace, instead of wallowing in the ham fisted attempt to make me feel bad about my happy ending by killing the geth off, as the writers so clearly wanted, since Control and ESPECIALLY Synthesis don't really stand up as well when that factor is removed (Control would still work as the Renegade ending, of course, and would work PERFECTLY in that capacity, there would just be less people picking it due to wanting to spare the geth but not wanting to go with Synthesis).

[themikefest]

Just becaose the reapers repair the relays and help rebuild the galaxy in control doesn't mean I should trust them. How do we know its not one of their voodoo mind tricks things they do in cycles?

 

As long as the reapers remain, regardless if Shepard is controlling them, they are a threat. No one knows Shepard is controlling them. As posted on another page, I would not be surprised if another crucible is built believing the first one had a malfunction. It was mentioned that it had enough power to destroy the reapers. If Shepard is controlling the reapers and wants to protect the many, would it attack the ones building the crucible?

[2Pac]

Green Explosion, because why not?

[FOX216BC]

Destroy cause it's the least far fetched of all endings.

Still even if the endings had a good concept, they still  lack in content.

This game is character focused, the ending isn't.

 

Mass Effect 3 endings are irellevant at best.

[Farangbaa]

Just becaose the reapers repair the relays and help rebuild the galaxy in control doesn't mean I should trust them. How do we know its not one of their voodoo mind tricks things they do in cycles?

 

As long as the reapers remain, regardless if Shepard is controlling them, they are a threat. No one knows Shepard is controlling them. As posted on another page, I would not be surprised if another crucible is built believing the first one had a malfunction. It was mentioned that it had enough power to destroy the reapers. If Shepard is controlling the reapers and wants to protect the many, would it attack the ones building the crucible?

 

You know the Reapers can talk right?

 

And you know they were destroying/harvesting everything in their path.. . then a blue wave rolled over the galaxy and they suddenly stopped, left and fixed everything. Litterally billions of people (every species) saw this.

[themikefest]

You know the Reapers can talk right?

 

And you know they were destroying/harvesting everything in their path.. . then a blue wave rolled over the galaxy and they suddenly stopped, left and fixed everything. Litterally billions of people (every species) saw this.

 All the reapers that talked wanted to destroy us,right?

 

It was mentioned that the crucible had enough power to destroy them and with the reapers around folks might believe the crucible malfunctioned or misfired.

 

As long as the reapers are still around, they remain a threat. I wouldn't be surprised if people keep looking over their shoulder wondering when/if the reapers fire their beam.

[Farangbaa]

Yeah lets assume everybody just ignores the blue wave that lit up the entire galaxy and instantly changed the Reapers as soon as it hit them.

After which EVERYBODY CHEERS. You can't tell me they suddenly forgot about all that and start building another Crucible.

 

Besides, everybody on the Normandy saw it firing. Hacket knew Shepard and Anderson were on the Citadel.

Everybody would need to get a vile case of amnesia to suddenly go all paranoid about the Reapers.

[Ieldra]

@RiptideX1090:
I wasn't trying to convince you, only to put a different perspective on things. I like the concepts of the ending options, but the implementation is an epic mess. I tend to avoid Destroy because I still associate a vibe of "back to the stone age" with it, a legacy of the original endings, and because it thematically claims that organics are special and need their biochemical purity preserved. I was so bugged by the implementation of the endings that I imagined my own post-Synthesis epilogue and that has been dominant in my mind since then, so Shepard comes back to life yet again (there is precedence) with some help from Miranda and they walk off into the sunset, never to be seen again, just as I walked away from this storytelling mess, never to touch another ME game.

Well, they say never say never, so I keep my options open, but it doesn't look as if I'll need to retract that statement. I have felt no motivation to start up an ME game for more than a year.

[CaIIisto]

Yeah lets assume everybody just ignores the blue wave that lit up the entire galaxy and instantly changed the Reapers as soon as it hit them.

It's been a while since I've seen the Control ending so perhaps this is covered, but I wonder what they told people about how the Reapers were controlled? Would they play it straight and tell everyone that it's the Shepalyst, or would they make the idea more palatable by implying that they were under the Council's control?

[RiptideX1090]

@RiptideX1090:
I wasn't trying to convince you, only to put a different perspective on things. I like the concepts of the ending options, but the implementation is an epic mess. I tend to avoid Destroy because I still associate a vibe of "back to the stone age" with it, a legacy of the original endings, and because it thematically claims that organics are special and need their biochemical purity preserved. I was so bugged by the implementation of the endings that I imagined my own post-Synthesis epilogue and that has been dominant in my mind since then, so Shepard comes back to life yet again (there is precedence) with some help from Miranda and they walk off into the sunset, never to be seen again, just as I walked away from this storytelling mess, never to touch another ME game.

Well, they say never say never, so I keep my options open, but it doesn't look as if I'll need to retract that statement. I have felt no motivation to start up an ME game for more than a year.

 

Yeah, the biggest problem with the endings is the fact that for any one of them to work at all, you have to do a lot of headcanon. We Destroyers tell ourselves the Geth uploaded to quarian suits and survived, or that they can be rebooted, the Controllers tell themselves Reaper Shep won't go crazy and won't become a maniacal uber-dictator, and Synthesizers tell themselves that everyone isn't brainwashed by being cybernetically linked to the Reapers and that it'll all work out.

 

You know, come to think of it, I think that's almost something all of us, no matter what ending we picked, can kind of find some common ground on, isn't it? The fact that no matter which color of explosion we picked, we still hope it all worked out for the best. Huh. Never considered that before. Interesting to think about.

[Farangbaa]

It's been a while since I've seen the Control ending so perhaps this is covered, but I wonder what they told people about how the Reapers were controlled? Would they play it straight and tell everyone that it's the Shepalyst, or would they make the idea more palatable by implying that they were under the Council's control?

 

The Reapers can speak. I'm sure Shep will clarify when asked.

[CaIIisto]

The Reapers can speak. I'm sure Shep will clarify when asked.

Well yes, the Shepalyst could clarify, but would it? If it's the essence of Shepard then it would surely know the unease that might be created by a single entity having unilateral control. Would it play along with any illusion of a more decentralised command structure? At least in the short term.

The Reapers can obviously talk, and they could try the "I was only following orders" card, but realistically would that even matter to some? Rationally, they were being controlled, and the great blue beam broke that control, and they're doing good things now, but that level of rational thought in the aftermath of what happens, in the short term at least, would be surprising. Compounding that by then admitting that the Reapers are now under the sole direction of an AI Shepard who isn't the real Shepard, might not go down well universally.

[themikefest]

The Reapers can speak. I'm sure Shep will clarify when asked.

Really? Would you believe a thing claiming to be the former Commander Shepard who chose the Geth over the Quarians, sabotages the genophage, has all squadmates dead and let the council die in ME1(not that its a bad thing)?

[CaIIisto]

Yeah, the biggest problem with the endings is the fact that for any one of them to work at all, you have to do a lot of headcanon. We Destroyers tell ourselves the Geth uploaded to quarian suits and survived, or that they can be rebooted, the Controllers tell themselves Reaper Shep won't go crazy and won't become a maniacal uber-dictator, and Synthesizers tell themselves that everyone isn't brainwashed by being cybernetically linked to the Reapers and that it'll all work out.
 
You know, come to think of it, I think that's almost something all of us, no matter what ending we picked, can kind of find some common ground on, isn't it? The fact that no matter which color of explosion we picked, we still hope it all worked out for the best. Huh. Never considered that before. Interesting to think about.

Good point.

Of course, the destroy ending works best if you're species-ist against AIs.

If you ended the Geth on Rannoch then EDI aside you're on easy street at the end.

[Farangbaa]

Really? Would you believe a thing claiming to be the former Commander Shepard who chose the Geth over the Quarians, sabotages the genophage, has all squadmates dead and let the council die in ME1(not that its a bad thing)?

 

Again, assuming all of the galaxy has massive amnesia and forgot that bright blue wave of energy that hit the Reapers and instantly changed them.

 

 

They cheer when that happens you know? They see it. I doubt they would even have to ask.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Really? Would you believe a thing claiming to be the former Commander Shepard who chose the Geth over the Quarians, sabotages the genophage, has all squadmates dead and let the council die in ME1(not that its a bad thing)?

 

Most people in the game still seem to. He's still space Jesus, he just has a few more space pharisees.

[themikefest]

Farmer: What are you?

Sheplyst: I am the former Commander Shepard. I control the reapers.

Farmer: Why should I believe that?

Sheplyst: Because I contol them. I had them rebuild the relays. They no longer are harvesting.

Farmer: Those things killed my wife and 2 of my children.

Sheplyst: They won't harm anyone anymore. I control them. Here. Let me introduce you to Harbinger and its family. This is its wife Capital ship #23 and their little destroyers

Farmer: Ok. Nice to meet you, I guess. I can always have another family. I can hold off my revenge for some other day, right?

[Farangbaa]

Maybe you should pick control for a change and see what happens

[themikefest]

Maybe you should pick control for a change and see what happens

Maybe you should worry about what you pick and not worry about what others pick

 

I have seen the control ending on youtube.

[SporkFu]

It's been a while since I've seen the Control ending so perhaps this is covered, but I wonder what they told people about how the Reapers were controlled? Would they play it straight and tell everyone that it's the Shepalyst, or would they make the idea more palatable by implying that they were under the Council's control?

shep: Hey guys, it's me, commander Shepard. You don't have to worry about those giant robotic death squids from space anymore. Nope, even though they killed millions of you, I'm in charge now. If anyone has questions about any of this just ask one of your new metallic friends and they'll, uhh, assuage all your doubts   *pause* There, I'm sure they bought it. Think they bought it?

Marauder Shields: You're still broadcasting, master. 

shep: Son of a- *click* 

[justafan]

Really? Would you believe a thing claiming to be the former Commander Shepard who chose the Geth over the Quarians, sabotages the genophage, has all squadmates dead and let the council die in ME1(not that its a bad thing)?

I can see it now

 

Lt. Commander (insert name here) Shepard, The Butcher of Torfan, Hero of the Citadel, Slayer of Saren, Instrument of Humanity's Coup, Cerberus Stooge, Keeper of the Genophage, the Quarian's bane, and your new Galactic Overlord.

 

That's more titles than a Game of Thrones Character, and honestly, such a Shepard makes Joffrey look good.