978 réponses à ce sujet

[Dale]

(Javik & Synthesis)

You had me rolling on the floor there Mordokai.    Dang!   Nice to see more humor + wit in the forum.

 

They need YOU writing some the lines in the next game.

[LoneWolf X14]

Yeah that Javil Synthesis thing was hilarious. XD

Honestly like I've said I always chose destroy it's just fits the best the reapers are gone and all races get to evolve and grow together on their own terms. I feel with the others ending they are being hand held by the reapers. I say we decide our own future and with Shepard how can peace not prevail. Geth will be revived and maybe EDI one day. I mean that scene with the quarians without their suits always makes me happy but they will still eventually get out of the suits just longer until we rebuild geth.

There are aspects of Synthesis I like but in the end Destroy just seems right. I mean with that awesome background music and Hackett narrating how can it not. EDI is a good narrator too tho.

[Eterna]

Yeah that Javil Synthesis thing was hilarious. XD

Honestly like I've said I always chose destroy it's just fits the best the reapers are gone and all races get to evolve and grow together on their own terms. I feel with the others ending they are being hand held by the reapers. I say we decide our own future and with Shepard how can peace not prevail. Geth will be revived and maybe EDI one day. I mean that scene with the quarians without their suits always makes me happy but they will still eventually get out of the suits just longer until we rebuild geth.

There are aspects of Synthesis I like but in the end Destroy just seems right. I mean with that awesome background music and Hackett narrating how can it not. EDI is a good narrator too tho.

 

The Geth and EDI cannot be revived because what made them who they are was Reaper code and you decided to destroy that. 

[RiptideX1090]

The Geth and EDI cannot be revived because what made them who they are was Reaper code and you decided to destroy that. 

 

You can't actually prove that what was targeted was Reaper Code and not just Reaper Hardware, or all hardware in general. I mean, if it was only reaper code that was targeted, why does the blast go so far as to wipe out everything, including reducing entire people to skeletons if you have low EMS?

[RiptideX1090]

Good point.

Of course, the destroy ending works best if you're species-ist against AIs.

If you ended the Geth on Rannoch then EDI aside you're on easy street at the end.

 

Wiping out the geth before hand would give Destroy less hang ups, to be sure.

 

But it's beside the point. The Crucible is about stopping the Reapers, not solving the Star Child's problem which we already proved we could overcome without the Crucible. The ending choice is about how you choose to stop the Reaper threat, the AI always rebelling garbage is just tacked on to try and give the endings more meaning and depth than they ever actually needed.

[KaiserShep]

Everybody would need to get a vile case of amnesia to suddenly go all paranoid about the Reapers.

 

People tend to be nervous around the things that may be just as likely to kill them for whatever reason. Unlike Shepard, most people in the galaxy didn't get any reason why they were being hunted to extinction. Random McGee soldier and Sally Sobstory civilian would be totally in the dark about this sort of thing. Is there an extranet terminal they can look up to get all the latest updates on the reaper madness? Will there be like a twitter feed?

 

Harbinger @Harbinger_of_Perfection  - 2h

Under new management. Comm Shep in charge now. Sry about the harvest lol

 

[KaiserShep]

The Geth and EDI cannot be revived because what made them who they are was Reaper code and you decided to destroy that. 

 

I'm pretty sure that them simply being AI's is what undid them. The reaper code is, as far as I can tell, a fan theory based on the coincidence that the only AI's we know of are augmented with reaper code.

[Aezint]

Losing the Geth and EDI turned it into a bittersweet victory, but the objective was to stop the Reapers.  So I did.

[Ieldra]

Yeah, the biggest problem with the endings is the fact that for any one of them to work at all, you have to do a lot of headcanon. We Destroyers tell ourselves the Geth uploaded to quarian suits and survived, or that they can be rebooted, the Controllers tell themselves Reaper Shep won't go crazy and won't become a maniacal uber-dictator, and Synthesizers tell themselves that everyone isn't brainwashed by being cybernetically linked to the Reapers and that it'll all work out.
 
You know, come to think of it, I think that's almost something all of us, no matter what ending we picked, can kind of find some common ground on, isn't it? The fact that no matter which color of explosion we picked, we still hope it all worked out for the best. Huh. Never considered that before. Interesting to think about.

Indeed so, and that was forgotten by all too many people. I recall I repeated that all endings are supposed to be good endings like a prayer wheel, and that people should rather state reasons why their option is good rather than insisting the others are all horrible, only to be met with scorn.

Anyway, as for headcanon epilogues, I'm not usually so reluctant to accept downsides to an outcome, but ME3 annoyed me on so many levels that certain aspects of the ending were the last straw. I might have accepted Shepard's death in Synthesis if not for the religious undertone and the altogether too blatant focus on sacrifice, as if that was a good thing in the first place rather than a terrible price paid for a dire necessity. Also, both Legion's and Shepard's death feel contrived, disconnected from the lore and logic of the universe. As I see it, the ending choices as such are interesting and have legitimate political and ideological dimensions, and all may have been well had they stuck to that and put a little more thought into plausibility. Bioware's attempt to add a metaphysical dimension was misguided, and the bad writing and the fact this was alien to this fictional universe so far combined to make it a complete failure.

[CaIIisto]

the AI always rebelling garbage is just tacked on to try and give the endings more meaning and depth than they ever actually needed.

Backfires IMO, certainly if you found a peaceful solution/resolution on Rannoch.

"AI always rebelling" either shows a critical flaw in Space Casper's logic as you've just proven it wrong by brokering peace between the Quarians and the Geth, or, it's essentially suggesting that this great achievement counts for f*ck all in the long run and denies you even that small victory.....

[SporkFu]

I'm not so sure. The geth did rebel, three hundred years before the reapers were even on the scene. Perhaps the Rannoch resolution was the first time peace worked. 

[CaIIisto]

I can't remember the exact quote now - was it that AI always rebel against their creators, or was it that AI always destroy their creators? I think it's the latter isn't it?

If so then Space Casper's logic is founded entirely on what happened in the Leviathan's cycle as the Reapers will have prevented this from happening in subsequent cycles.

[RiptideX1090]

Indeed so, and that was forgotten by all too many people. I recall I repeated that all endings are supposed to be good endings like a prayer wheel, and that people should rather state reasons why their option is good rather than insisting the others are all horrible, only to be met with scorn.

Anyway, as for headcanon epilogues, I'm not usually so reluctant to accept downsides to an outcome, but ME3 annoyed me on so many levels that certain aspects of the ending were the last straw. I might have accepted Shepard's death in Synthesis if not for the religious undertone and the altogether too blatant focus on sacrifice, as if that was a good thing in the first place rather than a terrible price paid for a dire necessity. Also, both Legion's and Shepard's death feel contrived, disconnected from the lore and logic of the universe. As I see it, the ending choices as such are interesting and have legitimate political and ideological dimensions, and all may have been well had they stuck to that and put a little more thought into plausibility. Bioware's attempt to add a metaphysical dimension was misguided, and the bad writing and the fact this was alien to this fictional universe so far combined to make it a complete failure.

 

See, that WOULD of worked, except the way Bioware wrote the endings we are left focusing on the bad more than the good. The endings aren't: you destroyed the Reapers, you controlled the Reapers, or you ensured everlasting peace. The endings are: would you rather commit genocide, become a monster, or commit cosmic rape. While I agree that all the bickering is annoying/venomous/outright hurtful, I do believe it's understandable why that's what has been taken away from the endings.

 

Agreed. You can go with Legion's death at least because... eh, whatever, Legion died for the geth's sins, fine. It doesn't make sense (why the hell couldn't Legion ctrl+c ctrl+v? The geth are stated as being able to do this!) but whatever, drama, I guess. But then then the endings roll around and... no. No, there's a point where suspension of disbelief only gets you so far, and everything that happens after you are beamed up to the Citadel completely and utterly shatters not only the suspension of disbelief, it presents a new problem in the last ten minutes, makes the protagonist so retarded he can't explain why this problem and it's solution are not only illogical, but how he was able to SOLVE IT ALREADY, and to top it all off, turns everything we were told until that point on its head. Control is somehow possible all of a sudden, even though Control is said to have been a Reaper ploy to fraction our order of battle (I'm fine with TIM making Control his thing, as it's all about sacrifice in exchange for power, but everything Vendetta says makes it stupid). Synthesis is... I guess a thing, even though it's never explained how it actually works, only that it does. Seriously, we are not told how we're different from the Catalyst's previous attempts at Synthesis, why it didn't work before and why it will work now, not to mention that I thought what the Reapers were doing all this time WAS Synthesis. And Destroy, the ending Shepard was working for all this time and even just had an argument with TIM over a few minutes ago is going to blow up the Geth, even though the Geth helped build the crucible and so the whole theme of victory through unity just kind of dies.

 

So yeah, I agree. The endings are vague and because of that saying everything goes to hell after the endings is just as viable as saying everything works out for everyone. Hey, we Destroyed the Reapers! But it'll probably be moot anyway when we build new synthetics and they hate us for wiping out all synthetics. Hey, we controlled the Reapers! But Shepard will probably come to the same conclusion as the Catalyst did in a few thousand years and the cycle will continue. Hey, we turned everyone into cyborgs and formed a galactic neural net that will forever ensure peace and love for all time! But everyone might have lost their free will in the process.

 

The problem with having endings open to interpretation like this where the negatives are as open to interpret as the positives is that you can say the worst thing can happen or the best thing can happen and neither argument is wrong, because nothing is concrete, it is as you say purely metaphysical, which doesn't fit at all with Mass Effect's setting, story, characters, history, plot, or anything else.

 

But hey. Speculations for everyone.

 

...is it possible to tell I'm still a tad bitter over all this...? Yeesh. Again, I'll be so very happy when we have new stuff to actually talk about.

[SporkFu]

I can't remember the exact quote now - was it that AI always rebel against their creators, or was it that AI always destroy their creators? I think it's the latter isn't it?

If so then Space Casper's logic is founded entirely on what happened in the Leviathan's cycle as the Reapers will have prevented this from happening in subsequent cycles.

I agree. shep altered the variables. 

[CaIIisto]

Hey, we turned everyone into cyborgs and formed a galactic neural net that will forever ensure peace and love for all time! But everyone might have lost their free will in the process.

Huh, who'd a thunk it, the "Resistance is futile" brigade were right all along......peace, love and harmony through forcibly having your DNA overwritten and free will stripped away.

Small price to pay to get that cool albino complexion....

[RiptideX1090]

Huh, who'd a thunk it, the "Resistance is futile" brigade were right all along......peace, love and harmony through forcibly having your DNA overwritten and free will stripped away.

Small price to pay to get that cool albino complexion....

 

Spoiler

 

Huh. Maybe there IS something to this synthesis thing after all. I mean... DAYUM.

 

Dem servos.

[CaIIisto]

^^ I think we've just found EDI's norks model........

[Zana]

Ok, this is a tangent, but could someone explain me how can one destroy a piece of code?  A complicated piece of code, but a piece of code nonetheless.  I mean, generally, only way you could destroy the code is by destroying every physical copy of it, which would imply destroying the hardware - the part which Geth require to house the code (for that matter, it would seem that Geth could multiply using Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V fairly fast).  Does it imply that Destroy wipes all hardware sufficiently advanced to house AI code? Theoretically one should be able to transcribe a Geth into paper (sure, would take a few tonnes of it, but theoretically possible).   Granted, the endings do not show any sheets of paper, but you could transcribe it on the memorial wall too! (just use small font!).  I guess wiping all data storage devices everywhere would work (for practical purposes), but that obviously did not happen as that would cause catastrophic consequences for all the high-tech civilizations (it's pretty amazing how much even now we rely on external data storage, be it books or computers). 

 

I guess it's Reaper Magic.  Just like altering DNA to somehow turn it part-synthetic.  And not just for next generation, but for all already existing organics.  So, yeah.  Reaper Magic.

 

Oh and on a complete tangent - if not for Reapers, Geth would be wiped out.  It was amusing to hear Reaper on Rannoch claim that organics and synthetics cannot coexist and have it proven wrong just minutes later.  And then have the same fallacy repeated by Catalyst, with added fallacy of synthetics destroying organics.

 

Meh, I think at this point everyone is aware that one can poke a large number of holes in ME series plot, and that ME3's ending has more holes than a strainer.  I guess only reason all of us are feeling strongly about it and keep bringing it up is because even with all of these problems we (or at least some of us) enjoyed the series and felt that the ending did not do it justice.

[Iakus]

Well yes, the Shepalyst could clarify, but would it? If it's the essence of Shepard then it would surely know the unease that might be created by a single entity having unilateral control. Would it play along with any illusion of a more decentralised command structure? At least in the short term.

The Reapers can obviously talk, and they could try the "I was only following orders" card, but realistically would that even matter to some? Rationally, they were being controlled, and the great blue beam broke that control, and they're doing good things now, but that level of rational thought in the aftermath of what happens, in the short term at least, would be surprising. Compounding that by then admitting that the Reapers are now under the sole direction of an AI Shepard who isn't the real Shepard, might not go down well universally.

 

"It is the will of Landru Shepard"  

[Farangbaa]

Backfires IMO, certainly if you found a peaceful solution/resolution on Rannoch.

"AI always rebelling" either shows a critical flaw in Space Casper's logic as you've just proven it wrong by brokering peace between the Quarians and the Geth, or, it's essentially suggesting that this great achievement counts for f*ck all in the long run and denies you even that small victory.....

 

Except that the Geth already killed 99% of the Quarians and will never ever return to their position of being subordinates of the Quarians.

 

The rebellion has already happened, the Quarians are just lucky they haven't been hunted down to extinction.

 

'Doesn't that prove the Catalyst wrong?'

 

No. It's says the following:

 

All organics will create synthetics.

 

The Geth not hunting everybody down to extinction is only one instance of AI deciding they shouldn't destroy all of their masters. AI will be and has been created countless times, and every single time they rebel against their creators. (every example of AI shown does this, up to and including the Catalyst)

 

The conflict (Created vs Creators) is by definition also Organic vs Synthetic. It only takes one instance of AI deciding that because their master are organics all organics are a threat and must be killed, and it's over.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Backfires IMO, certainly if you found a peaceful solution/resolution on Rannoch.

"AI always rebelling" either shows a critical flaw in Space Casper's logic as you've just proven it wrong by brokering peace between the Quarians and the Geth, or, it's essentially suggesting that this great achievement counts for f*ck all in the long run and denies you even that small victory.....

 

Even the epilogue seems to disagree as the return of chaos that the Catalyst predicted seems to be absent in the Destroy slides and Stargazer scene.

 

If the writers really wanted to sell that idea they should have done something like replace ME3 Cerberus with the Geth, instead of continuously painting AI as innocents who just want peace, freedom, and friendship with organics.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Wiping out the geth before hand would give Destroy less hang ups, to be sure.

 

But it's beside the point. The Crucible is about stopping the Reapers, not solving the Star Child's problem which we already proved we could overcome without the Crucible. The ending choice is about how you choose to stop the Reaper threat, the AI always rebelling garbage is just tacked on to try and give the endings more meaning and depth than they ever actually needed.

 

 

No it's not. It's the same thing as how you choose to stop the Reaper threat at it's core level; it's just reframed for the player to consider a future threat like the Reapers and not just the existing threat of an apex-AI.

[JasonShepard]

Ok, this is a tangent, but could someone explain me how can one destroy a piece of code?  A complicated piece of code, but a piece of code nonetheless.  I mean, generally, only way you could destroy the code is by destroying every physical copy of it, which would imply destroying the hardware - the part which Geth require to house the code (for that matter, it would seem that Geth could multiply using Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V fairly fast).  Does it imply that Destroy wipes all hardware sufficiently advanced to house AI code? Theoretically one should be able to transcribe a Geth into paper (sure, would take a few tonnes of it, but theoretically possible).   Granted, the endings do not show any sheets of paper, but you could transcribe it on the memorial wall too! (just use small font!).  I guess wiping all data storage devices everywhere would work (for practical purposes), but that obviously did not happen as that would cause catastrophic consequences for all the high-tech civilizations (it's pretty amazing how much even now we rely on external data storage, be it books or computers). 

 

The idea that Destroy targets code, such as the Reaper upgrades, never worked for me. For a while, I argued that it had to be similar to an EMP, wiping hard-drives just about everywhere - except real world EMPs are rather easy to shield against, don't travel at FTL, and aren't red. More recently I noticed that, according to the codex, all AI's have quantum blue boxes. (It's never stated whether the Geth have them, but it is stated that AI's require them, so... *shrugs*. You'd think installing a blue box would be a pretty good sign to the ancient quarians that this new VI servant might get a mind of its own.)

 

So my current theory is that Destroy damages quantum blue boxes. Which suggests QECs might not work either after the blast.

[CaIIisto]

Except that the Geth already killed 99% of the Quarians and will never ever return to their position of being subordinates of the Quarians.

 

The rebellion has already happened, the Quarians are just lucky they haven't been hunted down to extinction.

 

'Doesn't that prove the Catalyst wrong?'

 

No. It's says the following:

 

All organics will create synthetics.

 

The Geth not hunting everybody down to extinction is only one instance of AI deciding they shouldn't destroy all of their masters. AI will be and has been created countless times, and every single time they rebel against their creators. (every example of AI shown does this, up to and including the Catalyst)

 

The conflict (Created vs Creators) is by definition also Organic vs Synthetic. It only takes one instance of AI deciding that because their master are organics all organics are a threat and must be killed, and it's over.

 

All Organics will create synthetics

 

Not too sure that the Protheans did, did they? Would have thought that they'd have been more than clued up enough to realise the dangers of AI creation thanks to the Metacon war. 

 

From memory, the only AIs within the Prothean domain were the Zha'til, who weren't a problem until the Reapers turned up, and even then the Protheans just obliterated them. 

 

This is the problem in creating a one-size-fits-all solution. The logic was all based on observations from the Leviathan cycle, and the solution devised to solve a problem from the Leviathan cycle. There's no guarantee that that same problem will manifest itself in subsequent cycles. Hell, if the Leviathans weren't dipsh1ts to begin with, they wouldn't have bothered creating an AI to solve their problem in the first place, they'd have just done what the Protheans did, ie. wipe out any Synthetics when they became a problem. Achieves the same result, and doesn't require organics to be saved from extinction by erm...making them extinct. 

 

A pity that over the course of billions of years the Catalyst couldn't come up with a Crucible weapon itself and simply learn how to protect itself from its effects. Instant galaxy-wide-AI-reset at the flick of a button. "What's that, the Geth are annihilating the Quarians? <click> Bye bye Geth.......".

[ImaginaryMatter]

The idea that Destroy targets code, such as the Reaper upgrades, never worked for me. For a while, I argued that it had to be similar to an EMP, wiping hard-drives just about everywhere - except real world EMPs are rather easy to shield against, don't travel at FTL, and aren't red. More recently I noticed that, according to the codex, all AI's have quantum blue boxes. (It's never stated whether the Geth have them, but it is stated that AI's require them, so... *shrugs*. You'd think installing a blue box would be a pretty good sign to the ancient quarians that this new VI servant might get a mind of its own.)

 

So my current theory is that Destroy damages quantum blue boxes. Which suggests QECs might not work either after the blast.

 

I just don't think about it. After all, the Crucible is the machine that can merge organic and synthetic DNA. It also has a function that is activated by shooting a fuel line.

 

It's a machine beyond comprehension.