978 réponses à ce sujet

[SporkFu]

Destroy, every time. I mourn the sacrifice of geth and EDI, but I consider it worthy to finally see the Reapers down for good. The fact that it's the only ending where Shepard survives is a plus.

 

I don't trust anybody with the kind of power you get in Control and neither does any of my Shepards. I don't know what will happen when interacting with the millions of minds in the Reapers. I don't know that Shepard won't eventually came to the same conclusion as Catalyst. It was advocated by TIM, one more reason to turn away from it.

 

Sythesis just makes no sense whatsoever. But even if I'm willing to suspend my disbelief that far(I'm really not), I'm not comfortable with moral implications. The term "technological rape" gets thrown around a lot and I thinks it's quite fitting in this case. That Saren advocated it doesn't work in it's favor either.

 

And since picture says as much as thousand words...

 

 

Disclameir: I am unwilling to quarell with anybody over this. If you believe Sythesis is not technological rape and is in fact a good thing, good for you. I will laught at you, but I won't argue with you. If you believe your Shepard is able to Control the Reapers... the same applies to you.

 

Live and let live and all that jazz.

Saren is the most charismatic of the bunch, by far. 

[katamuro]

What really gets to me is that even discarding the moral issues and ambiguity of the blue and green choices the strongest reason why you should not choose them is that the two people who advocated for them were indoctrinated. They were total Reaper bitches, their whole thought process corrupted from decades of exposure(yes decades both Saren and Illusive Man both started their indoctrination quite a while ago) to Reaper artefacts. Considering that in both Control and Synthesis the Reapers get to live and still be the most fearsome, advanced and powerful force in the galaxy...

 

Anyway that is my thought process of choosing Destroy, not just because the other options are weird and creepy(they are but that is not the point) but because it is logical to do so just in case Reapers decide to try anything again.

[Farangbaa]

What really gets to me is that even discarding the moral issues and ambiguity of the blue and green choices the strongest reason why you should not choose them is that the two people who advocated for them were indoctrinated. They were total Reaper bitches, their whole thought process corrupted from decades of exposure(yes decades both Saren and Illusive Man both started their indoctrination quite a while ago) to Reaper artefacts. Considering that in both Control and Synthesis the Reapers get to live and still be the most fearsome, advanced and powerful force in the galaxy...

 

Anyway that is my thought process of choosing Destroy, not just because the other options are weird and creepy(they are but that is not the point) but because it is logical to do so just in case Reapers decide to try anything again.

 

I can just as easily argue that Shepard is the Harbinger of Synthesis.

 

Being half-man, half-machine, you know.

[Revan Reborn]

There really is not a "right" or "wrong" answer in regards to the ending of ME3, which is why I love it so much. Irregardless of which choice you make, it has a profound effect on synthetics, organics, and the entire galaxy. While Synthesis sounded like the moral high ground (even considered the perfect game ending in the original script) in comparison to Control, Destroy, and Refusal, the mistakes Saren made in ME1 compelled me to avoid this choice.

 

Control wasn't an option because much like Synthesis, the mistakes the Illusive Man made destroyed him and led to his own destruction, much like Saren. To try and synthesize or control a technology vastly superior to your own and one you do not fully understand will lead to your inevitable destruction and unraveling anyway, playing right into the hands of the reapers.

 

Destroy is a tragic and unfortunate solution, but it's the choice that Shepard was committed to make from the very beginning. The reapers are the biggest threat and they could not be coerced or reasoned with. The only way for survival was to destroy them, and unfortunately it came at a cost. All synthetics had to die. Tough as this decision ultimately was, it's also a great lesson for organics not to repeat mistakes made in the past and build a new future in a more cautious, united world.

 

Refusal wasn't an option for me as it more or less suggests inaction, which my Shepard would never let happen. Things were going to go out with a bang and the cycle was going to be broken. It was just a matter of how it was going to be achieved, and ultimately I came to the conclusion destroying the reapers was the best choice for the greater good and future of the galaxy.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Since the extended cut I'm now a fan of the *bleep* off option. Shepard does not negotiate with children.

But renegade control does make me laugh. I like the idea of Shepard becoming a Reaper and eventually deciding that the cycle must continue. Then Shepard would be the new Sovereign/Harbinger and would have cryptic conversations with who ever the new hero was.

[Revan Reborn]

I can just as easily argue that Shepard is the Harbinger of Synthesis.

 

Being half-man, half-machine, you know.

The major difference, however, is technology was used to help rebuild Shepard and nothing else. Synthesis entirely rewrites organic DNA and creates a new hybrid of the two. It's much more intrusive and more invasive than the repairs done for Shepard merely to replace human organs. We also have to consider that synthesis is mixing reaper technology with organics. We saw how this outcome ended with Saren, who was trying to perform synthesis long before Shepard was in the picture.

 

There are just too many unknown variables, and Shepard would be blindly putting his faith in the hands of the catalyst, and in return, the reapers, to "peacefully co-exist." The catalyst was the one who came up with the cycle and reapers to begin with. It does not have the best interest of humans, and more broadly the galaxy, in mind. Why would anyone believe what the catalyst proposes or advice it has to offer?

[Farangbaa]

The major difference, however, is technology was used to help rebuild Shepard and nothing else. Synthesis entirely rewrites organic DNA and creates a new hybrid of the two. It's much more intrusive and more invasive than the repairs done for Shepard merely to replace human organs. We also have to consider that synthesis is mixing reaper technology with organics. We saw how this outcome ended with Saren, who was trying to perform synthesis long before Shepard was in the picture.

Biggest bullshit line of the series: there aren't much atoms that could replace the carbon in the DNA strain (a few, at best), and all of them are worse at the job they should perform than carbon is.

At best combining DNA and tech into a new framework means that nanobots or something like that will take over some functions (DNA repair and such) and there's an AI running in your body doing some stuff.

It's kinda like God creating the universe: sure, God could've done so in many different ways, but if God wanted a universe with suns, planets and life, His options were extremely limited. Changing some cosmological constants even slightly would make life impossible. Same goes for DNA: you can't change that much or else it simply won't work anymore.

There are just too many unknown variables, and Shepard would be blindly putting his faith in the hands of the catalyst, and in return, the reapers, to "peacefully co-exist." The catalyst was the one who came up with the cycle and reapers to begin with. It does not have the best interest of humans, and more broadly the galaxy, in mind. Why would anyone believe what the catalyst proposes or advice it has to offer?

I'm pretty certain the Catalyst and even the Leviathan disagree.

[katamuro]

Plus without the starchild and just a VI explaining you how the reapers came to be and without the starchild controlling them Reapers are actually sentient, each one. Their mission being not just Reaping the galaxy just to make sure all organic life doesnt go extinct and preserve them but to increase their own abilities. Something like while the original creators of Reapers the Leviathans posed as gods to the other species, the Reapers after going off course with their programming have the idea that to truly preserve the organic life they need to become as close to being gods as possible, hence the Reaping of advanced civilizations giving them a boost in sentience, adding all those billions of minds to their own with different perspectives, different ways of thinking all working towards the solution of how to make Reapers gods. Something like that. After all if they thought that Leviathans posing as gods was not enough, it did not work to preserve against synthetic revolutions killing organics. So they thought that Leviathans simply did not go far enough, arrogant in their belief they were not smart enough to become true gods so Reaper purpose is to increase their intelligence, abilities, to become techno-organic gods until they are able to create conditions in the universe for organic life that does not involve them creating synthetics. 

 

Also the shepard's refusal to become the techno-organic messiah would be basically him affirming his humanity despite all the changes to him, that despite all the synthetic bits he is still human with all that it entails. 

[Steelcan]

Just beause synthesis and control similar to what Saren and TIM envisioned does not mean that they should be rejected outright.

 

They should be judged on their own merits in the current situation, not what other characters said.

[Farangbaa]

Just beause synthesis and control similar to what Saren and TIM envisioned does not mean that they should be rejected outright.
 
They should be judged on their own merits in the current situation, not what other characters said.

This.

Hitler was anti smoking and pro animal welfare. So I suppose all non-smokers are Nazi's.

[AlanC9]

Saren is the most charismatic of the bunch, by far.

I concur. The best thing about Synthesis, for me, is Shepard deciding that Saren was right all along. But I'm one of the weirdos who would have liked signing on with the Reapers in the Dark Energy plot.

[Steelcan]

I concur. The best thing about Synthesis, for me, is Shepard deciding that Saren was right all along. But I'm one of the weirdos who would have liked signing on with the Reapers in the Dark Energy plot.

Saren wasn't right, what he envisions is a bit different from the Catalyst's idea of synthesis.

 

Saren sees synthesis as evening the playing ground, organics and synthetics are one.  The Catalyst envisons synthesis as an end to the cycle because organics and synthetics no longer need fear and hate each other

[AlanC9]

I don't trust anybody with the kind of power you get in Control and neither does any of my Shepards. I don't know what will happen when interacting with the millions of minds in the Reapers. I don't know that Shepard won't eventually came to the same conclusion as Catalyst.

I always thought this was an odd thing to worry about. I can see something going wrong with the transcription of Shepard's mind, as dreamgazer mentions upthread. But the probability of two machines programmed in very different ways coming to the same wrong conclusion strikes me as infinitesimal. I can see the Sheplyst ending up agreeing with the Catalyst, sure, but only if the Catalyst really was right all along.

[AlanC9]

Saren wasn't right, what he envisions is a bit different from the Catalyst's idea of synthesis.
 
Saren sees synthesis as evening the playing ground, organics and synthetics are one.  The Catalyst envisons synthesis as an end to the cycle because organics and synthetics no longer need fear and hate each other

Yeah, I know. I'm signing on with the emotional reaction rather than the intellectual substance.

[CronoDragoon]

I concur. The best thing about Synthesis, for me, is Shepard deciding that Saren was right all along. But I'm one of the weirdos who would have liked signing on with the Reapers in the Dark Energy plot.

 

In a game structure where we didn't have to worry about player choice, the idea they were playing around with on the conceptual level that Shepard (who once took out Saren) eventually resorts to Reaper tech to equip himself to fight the Reapers and then must be confronted by the newly christened Spectre Ashley/Kaidan would have really been the perfect thematic conclusion to a story about cycles.

[dreamgazer]

In a game structure where we didn't have to worry about player choice, the idea they were playing around with on the conceptual level that Shepard (who once took out Saren) eventually resorts to Reaper tech to equip himself to fight the Reapers and then must be confronted by the newly christened Spectre Ashley/Kaidan would have really been the perfect thematic conclusion to a story about cycles.

 

 

Of course, I can only imagine the cries of "railroading" that would have accompanied this. 

[Iakus]

Yeah, I know. I'm signing on with the emotional reaction rather than the intellectual substance.

Nothing wronig with that, as long as you can acknowledge and respect that other people have different reactions.

[Iakus]

In a game structure where we didn't have to worry about player choice, the idea they were playing around with on the conceptual level that Shepard (who once took out Saren) eventually resorts to Reaper tech to equip himself to fight the Reapers and then must be confronted by the newly christened Spectre Ashley/Kaidan would have really been the perfect thematic conclusion to a story about cycles.

 

MENext with Control ending canon? 

[ImaginaryMatter]

I never particularly understood Saren representing Synthesis. By that point it's pretty clear he's off the deep end in Indoctrination land and that it's not really his idea but rather a Reaper one (although I guess this applies to TIM as well); then gets proven wrong when Shepard beats him anyway. Even mechanically the two are only superficially related.

[themikefest]

It would've been cool showing Saren jumping in the beam like it shows Anderson shooting the tube and TIM pulling the handles

[Iakus]

I never particularly understood Saren representing Synthesis. By that point it's pretty clear he's off the deep end in Indoctrination land and that it's not really his idea but rather a Reaper one (although I guess this applies to TIM as well); then gets proven wrong when Shepard beats him anyway. Even mechanically the two are only superficially related.

 

Saren:

I'm forging an alliance between us and the Reapers, between organics and machines, and in doing so, I will save more lives than have ever existed"

 

"The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined. A union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, and the weaknesses of neither. I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny"

 

The Catalyst:

 

"The energy of the crucible, released in this way will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy. Organics seek perfection through technology, synthetics seek perfection through understanding. Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics in turn will finally have understanding of organics. It is the ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, it is inevitable we will reach synthesis."

 

Yeah pretty easy to see the resemblence.  Especially since Saren was indoctrinated.

[AlanC9]

 
Of course, I can only imagine the cries of "railroading" that would have accompanied this.

I wonder if the confrontation at the end of the Cerberus Coup is sort of an echo of this concept. Sometimes Bio keeps stuff in after the reason they put that stuff in has gone away.

[SporkFu]

In a game structure where we didn't have to worry about player choice, the idea they were playing around with on the conceptual level that Shepard (who once took out Saren) eventually resorts to Reaper tech to equip himself to fight the Reapers and then must be confronted by the newly christened Spectre Ashley/Kaidan would have really been the perfect thematic conclusion to a story about cycles.

I never thought about that parallel before. That's kinda awesome. Would have been cool if shep was considered to have gone rogue and the VS was tasked to hunt him down. 

[Heimdall]

I sometimes choose Destroy, mostly for the sake of having a clear cut result.

I also choose Synthesis often, mostly because I'm opposed to the technophobic Saren parallels people try to make and I find the idea of a post-human utopia interesting.

[sveners]

I'd like to throw in my support for refusal.

 

Especially since all the other choices end in a suicide. Unless Shepard is actually sure the Catalyst is speaking the truth, there really should be no other choice than refusal. Because death is final, and after Shep chooses Destroy/control/synthesis, he/she has no way to know the result. Trust the Catalyst or sacrifice the Crucible plan to live another day.

 

While you're alive, there's always hope. When you're dead, you're dead.

 

Of course, we all know how refusal ends. But the Shepard we played could not know.