60 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

You can obviously put some points in Throw early, but I don't think you should wait to level Pull to Field until you have already leveled everything else.  Warp even moreso than Throw.

 

The thing I don't like about Heavy Throw is that if I am running around with my shotgun, strip the shields with my weapon, then just use Heavy Throw it isn't guaranteed to kill the target, and it pushes them out of optimal shotgun range.  It is sort of amusing to throw them anyway, or if you are on a good map it is nice to throw them off the edges.

[a_mouse]

@capn: I think you missed my meaning.  With only 51 points, you cannot fully level pull without giving up higher ranks of throw or warp (which in most situations I would not be inclined to do).  Thus, since pull is basically either a 1 or 10 affair, there is no reason to invest beyond level 1 unless you plan to go all the way.  If using pull field, I would probably give up heavy warp (relying on squad mate warp) before sacrificing higher ranks of throw.  

 

But again, I think of pull field as more synergistic with a ranged combat style.  For example, if you strip a group from mid to short range cover, pull them all into the open, then run up and finish with a shotgun at point blank range (with no one else shooting at you because they are already dead, disabled, or controlled), I would classify that as "ranged combat with an up-close coup de gras", rather than as CQC.  

 

To me, CQC means selectively taking on a limited number of protected enemies at point blank range (often under fire) in order to achieve a superior tactical position over other units (which you might then attack with ranged attacks). In this context, the utility of pull field is more limited I think.  But maybe if you post a vid of what you are doing with pull field and shotgun I can comment more specifically.

[RedCaesar97]

@capn: I think you missed my meaning.  With only 51 points, you cannot fully level pull without giving up higher ranks of throw or warp (which in most situations I would not be inclined to do).  Thus, since pull is basically either a 1 or 10 affair, there is no reason to invest beyond level 1 unless you plan to go all the way.  If using pull field, I would probably give up heavy warp (relying on squad mate warp) before sacrificing higher ranks of throw.  

 

That depends on what your build is, or perhaps more specifically, what your bonus power is. For example, this build allows you to have Pull Field, Heavy Throw, and Heavy Warp:

 

4 - Heavy Warp

4 - Heavy Throw

4 - Heavy Singularity

4 - Pull Field

0 - Shockwave

4 - Bastion

1 - Stasis

 

Now, if you want something to invest 4 points into your bonus power, such as Heavy Warp Ammo, Heavy Barrier, or Enhanced Stasis or something, then you will have to drop Throw or Pull to rank 1.

[a_mouse]

^Sorry, miscalculated.  I lost track of the fact that we were talking about a build with rank 1 Stasis.  

 

So rereading, I realize capn's point was simply that, given a final build with pull field and rank 1 stasis, its better to fully level pull before *fully* leveling throw and/or warp.  Yes?

 

If so, one modification I might suggest is to retain rank 1 pull through the DCS mission (where warp and throw are particularly useful), then respec to rank 1 throw and rank 2~3 warp (so as to get pull field up and running quicker).

[capn233]

Yes I am talking on the magical gold standard adept build progression which has 1 point in Stasis.

 

You don't necessarily need Heavy Warp or Heavy Throw for DCC, and you definitely don't need both.  And of course what  you need depends on who you recruited.  If you are running Miri / Thane, do you need Warp at all?  Do you need Heavy Throw to knock people off of a platform?

[cap and gown]

Do you need Heavy Throw to knock people off of a platform?

 

Apparently you do.

[a_mouse]

You don't necessarily need Heavy Warp or Heavy Throw for DCC, and you definitely don't need both.  And of course what  you need depends on who you recruited.  If you are running Miri / Thane, do you need Warp at all?  Do you need Heavy Throw to knock people off of a platform?

Well, you don't NEED anything in particular - it's a matter of preference and play style.  But at level 19-20 (for example), and with pull field fully leveled, you either have to give up throw altogether (to get heavy warp), or only partially level warp and throw.  In this case I'd probably opt for the latter so as to get throw up to at least rank 2 for the platforms and other places you can toss collectors out of play, or return flaming pyros back to sender.  But with throw at rank 2-3, I'd much rather have heavy warp than pull field.  It opens up triple combos (strip - pull - warp) that you could not do otherwise.

[capn233]

I would pick the later as well.

 

Heavy Warp opens up one thing and shuts the door on another thing.  Back to Warp Bomb Spam.  Also unclear to me you need Heavy Warp to strip barriers at that level, but I don't care to run the math, mainly because it doesn't matter a great deal.  It shouldn't since Rank 3 level Warp should strip defense even late game with decent upgrade progression.

 

And I obviously won't disagree with the fact that build and weapon choice influences playstyle, since I made very specific claims to that effect earlier that have been argued with by talking about other situations.

[capn233]

Apparently you do.

 

You don't really, but I also reject the notion that DCC should dictate the build strategy for the entire game anyway.

[capn233]

Shouldn't unstable have a higher force? o.O

 

This wasn't addressed before, but this is on the right track.

 

Rank 3 and Rank 4 Warp (regardless of evo) has the same force (700N).  The difference is Unstable has a larger radius (7m compared to 5m for Heavy or Rank 3).  Heavy gets you 200 base damage as opposed to 160 for Rank 3 and Unstable.  At least if the wiki isn't lying, I can check in game later I suppose.

[a_mouse]

I also reject the notion that DCC should dictate the build strategy for the entire game anyway.

I didn't mean to imply that it should.  However, the game does permit you to respec your points - so it seems reasonable to invest/divest the 9 points in question according to enemy type.

 

In any case, I remain unconvinced that pull field is worth those 9 points early game.  I think there are so many other good ways to achieve the necessary crowd control (e.g. squad ammo powers, AOE squad powers, warp bombs, singularity), I'd rather spend those 9 points on single target control and damage.

[a_mouse]

Rank 3 and Rank 4 Warp (regardless of evo) has the same force (700N).  The difference is Unstable has a larger radius (7m compared to 5m for Heavy or Rank 3).  Heavy gets you 200 base damage as opposed to 160 for Rank 3 and Unstable.  At least if the wiki isn't lying, I can check in game later I suppose.

If you do, please post the result.  I have pulled a warp bomb on the #2 collector platform literally *hundreds* of times, and found heavy warp (on squad mate) to be much more effective than unstable warp at ejecting all the collectors off the platform.  (i.e. with heavy I can do it most of the time (>75%), whereas with unstable it's more like 30%).  And it *looks* (to my naked eye) like the collectors are being tossed off with more gusto with heavy.  So either the wiki is wrong, or the extra damage of heavy is doing a better job of stripping the barriers off the collectors caught in the blast radius (such that the force of the blast actually acts on them).  

[capn233]

In any case, I remain unconvinced that pull field is worth those 9 points early game.  I think there are so many other good ways to achieve the necessary crowd control (e.g. squad ammo powers, AOE squad powers, warp bombs, singularity), I'd rather spend those 9 points on single target control and damage.

 

There are more options for damage than there are for decent CC.  And squad ammo powers certainly don't hold a candle to Pull for multitarget CC.  At least not the two which are available to the Adept.

 

Since Adept has access to a pistol and SMG, why do I need to be concerned much with single target armor or barrier damage?  Alternatively, if I care about multitarget armor damage, I am taking Mordin or possibly Samara (before level 30) since both have options that are a significantly better against armor than Warp.  Incidentally, I can get some AOE barrier damage with Incinerate or Cryo if I want.

 

For Warp Bomb Spamming, Warp vs Pull on Shepard has little advantage over one another, not even early game where you are limited to one warp squadmate.  You aren't going to beat the strip->lift->boom cycle because you have one or the other.  You are going to have to hit them with Overload, then a lift power, then the warp.

[cap and gown]

So either the wiki is wrong, or the extra damage of heavy is doing a better job of stripping the barriers off the collectors caught in the blast radius (such that the force of the blast actually acts on them).  

 

I can't be sure, but I believe I have seen protected enemies (shielded) get thrown away from a warp explosion. Maybe the warp bomb is stripping them (damage component) before the force component is being applied? I can't really remember if they still had their shields (at least some of them) after being tossed about. I would have to look through my vids again to check.

[capn233]

The power screen shows the same numbers as the wiki.

 

Maybe it is an artifact of the extra damage from Heavy.  There likely isn't more force unless Eric Fagnan's explanation of warp explosion mechanics is wrong.

[a_mouse]

^ Unlikely. It must be the extra damage. So basically it comes down to cool down and radius vs. more effective flattening of protected groups. Hmm - that's a dilemma. Might need to visit Hagalaz more often.

[a_mouse]

Meanwhile, I still remain unconvinced on the merits of pull field as an early-game priority with a CQ-oriented play style!
 

There are more options for damage than there are for decent CC.  And squad ammo powers certainly don't hold a candle to Pull for multitarget CC.  At least not the two which are available to the Adept.

Single target pull is already massive in terms of CC, simply by cycling it or combining with other powers. For the AOE version to provide additional benefits, you need multiple targets on red health bars within 3m of each other, and in my games that just doesn't happen that often. By comparison I once did an Adept run of CS in which Miranda had a Tempest and Grunt (with squad incendiary) had a Vindicator, and pretty much any collector with a red health bar was doing a fire dance. It was hilarious, and very effective in terms of suppressing enemy fire, leaving cool downs for other powers (including increasing the effectiveness of rank 1 pull).  And if you stay mobile, husks and other melee units just aren't that big an issue IMO.  
 
One of my favorite ME2 vids illustrating the effectiveness of single-target immobilizing powers combined with high mobility is this one by thisisme8. This vid illustrates the point that CC is more something you DO with available powers than a characteristic of the powers themselves.
 

Since Adept has access to a pistol and SMG, why do I need to be concerned much with single target armor or barrier damage? Alternatively, if I care about multitarget armor damage, I am taking Mordin or possibly Samara (before level 30) since both have options that are a significantly better against armor than Warp.  Incidentally, I can get some AOE barrier damage with Incinerate or Cryo if I want.

Even without warp bombs, warp serves as an effective form of artillery. You can deliver a large dose of damage to armor/barriers without exposing yourself to the enemy (as you must with repeated gunfire). By having warp on Shep, you can double down on other squadmates armor and protection stripping and AOE powers (overload, warp, incinerate, reave), allowing more rapid take downs of pesky heavys or clusters of weaker units.  The point is not to *supplant* guns and squadmate AOE effects with Sheps warp, but to *augment* them in situations where out-of-cover time is a limited resource and/or you need to take out a particular unit or small group very quickly for tactical purposes.
 

For Warp Bomb Spamming, Warp vs Pull on Shepard has little advantage over one another, not even early game where you are limited to one warp squadmate.  You aren't going to beat the strip->lift->boom cycle because you have one or the other.  You are going to have to hit them with Overload, then a lift power, then the warp.

By having both pull and Warp on Shep, it opens up more WB combinations, aiding cool down management and increasing tactical versatility. For example, with Jacob and Miranda as squadmates you can set off a WB three different ways, with at least one option available even if one of your team is on cool down:

Jacob Pull -> Miranda Warp (bonus: Shep stays behind cover, recovering barrier)
Jacob Pull -> Shep Warp (bonus: targeted enemy is disabled before Shep breaks cover to launch warp)
Shep Pull -> Miranda Warp (bonus: synergistic with protection-stripping gunfire: strip, pull, duck, then set off bomb after returning to cover)

or, if all three members of team are fresh:

Shep Pull -> Miranda Warp -> Jacob Pull + ~1 sec -> Shep Warp (bonus: quad combo!)

I am not going to quibble with you about level 3 vs. heavy evolutions of warp and throw (I am not an expert on the numbers by any means). But I remain unconvinced that Pull is worth evolving above rank 1 until both throw and warp are almost fully leveled up (such that re-specing to pull field will not reduce warp below rank 3 or throw below rank 2).

Of COURSE you can always decide (as a matter of build) to go straight to pull field as a primary CC strategy (it might even be interesting to get pull field before singularity, just for a change of pace!). But as I said before (and all I was really trying to say earlier) is that this is probably a better approach for ranged combat tactics (where you are more likely to encounter/create multiple enemies on red health bars near each other) than for CQ where you are explicitly planning on taking out units in a more selective/sequential manner.  With CQ the whole idea is to gang up on one or two enemies and eliminate them as quickly as possible, so as to achieve a tactically superior position on other units. Once this (usually more difficult) task is achieved, it kinda doesn't matter how you kill the remaining fish in the barrel. For this reason I prioritize development of the powers that will support blitzkrieg tactics (over more general CC of debuffed enemies).

 

Here is an example of what I am talking about.  Although this is a Vanguard, it shows the use of pull field and shockwave in combination as AOE CC. In this vid I switch back and forth between CQ and ranged combat tactics.  But what you'll notice is that the few times I use pull field effectively (e.g. 1:45, 3:35) are in ranged combat situations or as a finishing move in tactically won positions.  For CQ it really played no role, and in some cases was arguably counterproductive (e.g. 0:10). Was it fun? Sure, when combined with shockwave (in particular) it is cool to see mooks go flying. But was it important from a tactical perspective?  Not really.  

[capn233]

Eh, if nobody is convinced so be it.

 

Multiple targets on red health is fairly easy to get if you have a squadmate with an AOE defense stripper.  There are two squadmates that fit this bill for the majority of missions.  And one each for armor and barriers.

 

When I see squad incendiary actually do decent CC it will probably be the first time.  Add Geth to the ignore list for Incendiary.  I guess you can swap out for Zaeed and have a near useless squadmate for Geth missions if you want.  Still not nearly as good as Garrus and Miranda.

 

The Sentinel video is completely irrelevant to Adept build progression since Sentinel does not need as much CC as an Adept.  This should be intuitive and non controversial.  And in any case that particular mission is ideal for Pull Field, and he would have had an even easier time with Full Cryo Blast rather than Deep.

 

As for Warp as artillery, obviously it supplements weapon damage.  For argument's sake, let me agree that Warp is anti barrier artillery.  It is more appropriate for bombarding enemies from cover than useful for the CQB shotgun adept, which is a point I made.  Indeed this is opposite of the claim that was made that Pull Field is better for a standoff caster.  It absolutely isn't.  For a CQB shotgun adept you will be in optimum range for Shotguns (or SMGs) to barrier strip.  I will concede that Collector missions are the least idea since there are zero good powers for group stripping barriers (Reave and either Incinerate or Cryo Blast in a pinch), but fortunately Collector missions make up a small minority of the game.  For the majority of missions you face hordes of shield/health enemies who are easily combo'd with Area Overload-> Pull Field.

 

As for the elite or mini boss units, they can be trivialized with one point stasis in which case 2 shots from the Carnifex are superior to blowing your cooldown on Warp.  Even if you decide not to glitch with Stasis, the heavy pistols are more than capable of stripping elite armor rapidly.

 

I disagree that having Warp and Pull on Shepard necessarily opens up more combinations within a single mission.  But it doesn't matter a great deal because you can never have Pull without Warp on the Adept, and what I said repeatedly was that it getting Pull Field before Heavy Warp or Heavy Throw seems compelling to me.  The gains from Heavy Warp relative to Warp 3 on 90% of the missions in the game are trivial.

 

As for a team of Miranda and Jacob, your squadmates don't go on cooldown all by themselves, so it isn't like you necessarily need to be prepared in case one is on cooldown.  On a typical mission the cycle is nearly always going to be Overload -> Pull -> Warp.  You can run that cycle regardless of what Shepard has.  Purely theoretically (since it never happens in reality), if Shepard had no Warp you can't run that cycle on that mission.  At least not with Jacob.  But you can run it if you swap him for Garrus or Thane, so that is obviously what you would do.  But to reiterate, that does not matter since 1) you know what powers you have when you select the squad and 2) you would have at least Rank 2 Warp anyway.

 

Other cycles with this or that happening are purely hypothetical and whether or not they will occur in a mission is a supposition.  But if you want to be "maximally prepared" to Warp Bomb spam, by all means get both powers.   I did say earlier that Pull Field earlier doesn't make as much sense from a warp bomb spam perspective, but of course that is a caster style with a disclaimer in my earlier posts on the subject anyway.

 

Another thing to consider though is that Area Overload - Pull Field - Warp with multiple targets floated is always better than single target Pull and targets on the ground since the lifted targets take double damage.

 

All in all you make a pretty good case for Warp, but what about Throw?  I won't argue with any fun metrics, Throw is probably a more fun power than Pull.  But is it more powerful?  Does it help you more to get Throw early?  You don't have to invest in Throw at all to get Singularity, Warp and Pull up and running.  What is the case for Heavy Throw before Pull Field?

 

I understand that you are saying CC heavy strategy makes more sense for a standoff caster rather than a CQB character, but I fundamentally disagree with that statement and say that for an Adept more CC is superior to damage powers oriented builds at close range.  The damage powers available to Shepard aren't great for damage.  Warp is high tier for barrier damage, but weak for any other damage.  The exception may be Warp Bomb Spam, but that isn't necessarily a close ranged style either, it is just a more caster style.

 

As far as the Vanguard goes, the way you chose to use the powers doesn't mean that this is the only way to use it.  Additionally, it was DCC again which is non-ideal for area CC powers since there is no area defense stripping for barriers (unless you would have Loyal Samara here since it is unlikely you are at Level 30 outside of NG+).  Additionally, shotgun Adept doesn't get Charge, Inferno Ammo or the Claymore, so it is hard to extrapolate to an Adept from a caster Vanguard.

 

There aren't a lot of CQB adept vids, especially with any significant portion of running and gunning out of cover.  That is what I was trying to do in this past run along with figuring out how it might be done without Reave, Energy Drain, or Stasis spam.  I bumped this thread because once I finally got Pull Field it seemed like it got a lot easier for me, especially if I predominately focused on opening the fight with Heavy Singularity (if an elite), then Overload -> Pull Field relative to nearly any other option.  You can try to run around with Headshot-> Throw, but it did not seem as consistently effective to me, at least not when the only multitarget CC option is a squadmate or a lazy moving Singularity.

[cap and gown]

But it doesn't matter a great deal because you can never have Pull without Warp on the Adept, and what I said repeatedly was that it getting Pull Field before Heavy Warp or Heavy Throw seems compelling to me.  You will already have 2 in Warp to unlock Pull.  At that point, go 1 in Pull, then 3 in Warp, then max to Pull Field.  The gains from Heavy Warp relative to Warp 3 on 90% of the missions in the game are trivial.

 

Rank 2 of Warp unlocks Throw, not Pull. Rank 2 of Singularity unlocks Pull.

[capn233]

Rank 2 of Warp unlocks Throw, not Pull. Rank 2 of Singularity unlocks Pull.

 

Bah you are right.

[capn233]

I loaded an older save on this run on Tuchanka.  The first time through I did Grunt's mission, but this time I respec'd and went directly on Mordin's, mainly because this level happens to be the one where if you have Heavy Singularity and Bastion, you can max Warp and Throw with 1 pity point Pull, or go Pull Field with either Heavy Warp no Throw, or Rank 3 on both.  I did the latter.

 

Shotgun Adept - Old Blood

 

I hit the wrong key a few times, mostly to use Stasis instead of Warp, although I did use Stasis on purpose a couple times.  The squad is Mordin and Miranda.  I have enough shotgun upgrades for Shield Piercing (not useful on this mission really) and Extra Rounds.

 

Obviously some of the time I used Pull I could have used Singularity, although I would have been on cooldown a little longer.  Also, at some of the ranges I use Pull, it would be easy to step in the singularity and kill it, reducing the duration advantage.  There are all sorts of ways to play this, so if you had Warp and no Pull you could have taken Jacob.  I prefer Miranda in general, and moreso on most missions because she can use Overload (used here for a Pyro).

 

Last bit is that the bonus part at the end was recorded first, but I had to reload it since I couldn't find that guy.

[a_mouse]

@capn 233: Nice vid!  Aggressive play - nice use of well timed power combinations.  
 
And yet… I remain unsold on pull field for CQ engagement (maybe even more so after your vid). In most situations where pull field really benefits you, you are stripping and disabling enemies from range, and then warp bombing them.  In the cases where you use pull field during close assault of protected enemies (i.e. Krogan and varren in confined quarters), I didn't understand how it afforded an advantage over singularity, and in some cases (e.g. the sequence starting at 4:30) it actually seemed a bit counterproductive, with Krogan and varren awkwardly drifting off behind you where they later come back to haunt.  In contrast, rank 3 throw seemed to be doing you a lot of good on this map! So returning to the issue of build progression, and imagining hypothetically that you were at level 17 (35 points) instead of level 22 (43 points), would you still have chosen pull field over higher ranks of warp and throw for this map? 
 

I understand that you are saying CC heavy strategy makes more sense for a standoff caster rather than a CQB character, but I fundamentally disagree with that statement and say that for an Adept more CC is superior to damage powers oriented builds at close range. There aren't a lot of CQB adept vids, especially with any significant portion of running and gunning out of cover.  That is what I was trying to do in this past run along with figuring out how it might be done without Reave, Energy Drain, or Stasis spam.  I bumped this thread because once I finally got Pull Field it seemed like it got a lot easier for me, especially if I predominately focused on opening the fight with Heavy Singularity (if an elite), then Overload -> Pull Field relative to nearly any other option.  You can try to run around with Headshot-> Throw, but it did not seem as consistently effective to me, at least not when the only multitarget CC option is a squadmate or a lazy moving Singularity.

 
I don't think the term "ranged combat" is equivalent to "standoff casting". To me the distinction between RC and CQC is not aggressiveness.  It is simply whether you first strip and disable units from range before moving in vs. move in first (before units have been disabled) and attack them at point blank range.  Your video nicely demonstrates aggressive use of both styles (none of which I would describe as "standoff casting"). Conversely, I would not describe combat as "CQC" simply because it involves running around out of cover shooting things with a shotgun. For me, CQC is NOT about running and gunning. It's about using enhanced protection, movement, or control over protected enemies so as to achieve windows of mobility, and then using that mobility to close in and clobber (at point blank range) select units in key positions with overwhelming force. This "CQ assault" phase is often followed an "exploitation" phase, where one defends a tactically superior position or destroys remaining units that are in a inferior position (often with ranged attacks that would not have been possible from a previous weaker position). If you've seen my vids, you may have noticed I am actually in cover most of the time (despite heavy use of shotgun and CQ assault). I just don't remain under the SAME cover very long (as a traditional castor would do).
 
For example, at 4:05 in your vid, after eliminating the vorcha from range and CQ'ing the Krogan at 4:15 (nice!), why advance so far into the hallway?!  I would probably have positioned the squad on bridge (with overwatch of hallway) and then remained in cover behind the crates in order to exploit the fire lane, eliminating units as they wander into the firetrap. At that point it would not really have mattered much whether you were using singularity or pull field to limit the enemy movement - the key step in that scenario was rapidly CQ'ing 1st Krogan so as to take control of the hallway before the remaining enemies got there.  The rest is gravy.
 

Multiple targets on red health is fairly easy to get if you have a squadmate with an AOE defense stripper... For the majority of missions you face hordes of shield/health enemies who are easily combo'd with Area Overload-> Pull Field. Another thing to consider though is that Area Overload - Pull Field - Warp with multiple targets floated is always better than single target Pull and targets on the ground since the lifted targets take double damage.

 
That is probably my main use of pull field when I have it (warb bomb or Shockwave combos). But I'm not sure it really adds that much value beyond the gratuity factor. In my experience a warp bomb (with 5+m radius) on a cluster of AOE-stripped mooks (all within a 3m radius) is usually pretty effective whether or not they are all floating.  For example, I think a heavy warp bomb at 0:48 and 4:07 in your vid would have taken out all these vorcha even with a rank 1 pull. In other cases, where you had multiple floating Krogan at nearly full health, I actually think it might have been easier to shoot them or throw them off the balcony, rather than collapsing the pull field with a WB. Also, with Singularity and rank 1 pull both active, you can pluck an individual unit out of the singularity and detonate it without collapsing the singularity. 
 
During a CQ assault of one or two protected targets in a desirable location (that I wish to capture), I actually avoid using pull since I'd rather they stay put (where I can melee and blast them point blank with a shotgun), and then steal their spot (examples: 3:20 and 3:50 in this vid, or 4:10~4:18 in your vid). This is one reason why heavy singularity and stasis are so useful for CQ - fully protected enemies remain helplessly pinned until you are right on top of them.  In contrast, the closer you are to target when it gets stripped and pulled, the more likely it is to drift out of your view  (example: 4:15 in this vid, or the sequence starting at 4:30 in your vid).  If the goal is to AOE-strip and immobilize units up close, Mordin's full cryo might be a better option than pull field.   
 
With a ranged assault (where you first strip and disable enemies, and then subsequently move in to acquire their position or finish them off), I think you can make a more compelling argument for the travel speed and cooldown advantage of pull field over singularity (examples: 1:45 in this vid, or 2:30~2:45 in your vid).  
 

I disagree that having Warp and Pull on Shepard necessarily opens up more combinations within a single mission…Other cycles with this or that happening are purely hypothetical and whether or not they will occur in a mission is a supposition.

 
I find the added flexibility of multiple WB combo pathways to be beneficial in practice, not just theoretically.  About half of the time I am using Shep pull to Miranda (or Thane) warp.  But Adepts are pretty squishy, so for example it is sometimes not possible to strip with SMG and pull a target without dipping into Shep's health pool. In situations with a lot of incoming fire, I will often strip and duck before the shield gate expires, and then let Jacob and Miranda/Thane set off the WB.  Conversely if I've just used Miranda's Overload she is out of the equation.  So if I want a WB (and no 2nd warper on squad), it's up to Jacob + Shep. 
 

All in all you make a pretty good case for Warp, but what about Throw?  I won't argue with any fun metrics, Throw is probably a more fun power than Pull.  But is it more powerful?  Does it help you more to get Throw early?  You don't have to invest in Throw at all to get Singularity, Warp and Pull up and running.  What is the case for Heavy Throw before Pull Field?

 
More powerful?  Not sure how to measure that. In my experience rank 1 pull is the most critical, followed by rank 2 or 3 throw. I use pull and throw in combination to eject targets out of play (fast cooldown, and works on big units like Krogan, pyros, etc as well as small units).  It's also great for temporarily pushing back advancing melee units like varren, fenris.  Your video actually demonstrates many of the things I like about throw, and I think you gained a lot by having it at rank 3 vs. rank 1.  
 
In terms of build progression, I think at level 22 (where throw and warp are both at rank 3+ regardless of the rank of pull), I agree it is not much of a sacrifice to get pull field.  But at lower level (say 17) where pull field means rank 2 warp and rank 1 throw, I think you might feel the loss more significantly.  On the other hand, you might not have a shotgun at that point, so would be doing more ranged combat anyway (in which case the value of pull field might be higher).

[capn233]

Yes it did help killing twin Vorcha with Warp Bombs at range.  It is not possible to get them both without lifting them both.  It is an advantage, it happened at range, and it allowed me to move along to get to the closer ranged stuff without taking longer to fight them.  The alternative is to change squadmates to Jacob and have at least Rank 3 Warp, or spend more time fighting them.  The second option is not idea for the pair right after EDI talks to you unless you want to shoot them at range with the pistol, or have them on one side of you and the Krogan on the other.

 

I disagree with the notion that these were the only times Pull Field were beneficial.  It did not cause enemies to float behind me any more than Singularity would have.  In the instance were that Krogan "came back to haunt me," he was knocked to that position by the Warp Explosion itself, not Pull Field.  The reason he took me by surprise is because I thought he was killed that I looked close enough by him to see if he had a bar, but I did not).  Pull Field did allow me to not get killed though since it allowed me to lift him and his little helpers and warp bomb them again.

 

Whether or not Singularity would have worked there is open for debate. You can drop a Singularity in that hallway if you want, that is a different way to approach it and would be similar to what I tried to do after the guy who talks too much.

 

To answer the question about Throw, this map is one of the best maps for the power.  I used it several times where I didn't necessarily need to and it gained me little compared to using Pull (knock down on a regen unit) since it doesn't do much damage and doesn't ragdoll them as long.

 

I disagree with your notion of ranged combat.  Ranged combat is when the targets are predominantly at range, and you keep them at range.  Close combat is when you are predominantly fighting them up close.  Did I use Pull Field at range several times?  Of course.  It is the only decent way to kill a couple pairs of Vorcha quickly with powers only.  I had hoped to use it before the door at the first section but didn't do it quite right and I wasn't going to grind it.  If anyone is left in this thread they can come to their own conclusions about that.

 

Repeating what I said in the comments, I closed on the targets to get into better range for the shotgun, and to play it at close range.  Hanging back at the first corner is an easier way to do that section, I agree.  This discussion isn't about the easiest way through the game though necessarily.

 

As far as the vorcha pairs go and a Heavy Warp Bomb, to do that you are either running Jacob, or you leveled Miranda to Heavy.  I don't care for either option, especially not that evolution on Miranda since it means she casts less frequently.  On this particular mission it isn't a huge deal, but on missions where you alternate between Warp and Overload it does matter.

 

Obviously Stasis is good for actual CQC, it is overpowered.  I should have taken it off hotkey so as to not use it at all most likely.  Singularity isn't better than Pull Field because it has a different function altogether.

[a_mouse]

@capn233 - I remain skeptical, but perhaps we should suspend further debate on the merits of pull field until I have chance to run some comparisons myself (lest we further derail this thread!).

 

However, returning to the topic at hand (build progression), I remain somewhat fuzzy (even after all this discussion) about your final opinion on point allocation for an Adept with final build having pull field and rank 1 stasis.  Could you briefly summarize how you would advise readers of this thread to allocate points to pull, warp, and throw starting at, say, level 13 (27 points) and ending at level 22 (43 points), including the point where you would reallocate points (in the Tech Lab) from throw and warp to pull in order to raise it from rank 1 to rank 4.  Then I promise to stop antagonizing you.  Deal?  

 

Thanks!

[capn233]

Not sure there is a one size fits all answer, and since I am haven't memorized how soon you get what amount of points it is hard for me to be very specific with an order.

 

ME1 Import (57) Level 3 (6+1 pts)

 

On pc anyway you can't take Stasis so just go 1 pt Slam until Mordin is acquired.

 

Warp 2

Singularity 1

Biotic Mastery 1

Slam 1

 

This is fine for Lazarus as targets aren't protected and you get Jacob anyway.  Also sets the stage for unlocks.  You will have one free point, so if you want Throw 1 you can get it, otherwise bank it.  If you import a Level 60 character you can go ahead and get Throw 1 and Pull 1 since you have 10+1 points.

 

Freedom's Progress - Level 4 (8+1)

 

Warp 2

Throw 1

Singularity 2

Biotic Mastery 1

Slam 1

 

Whether on not you get Throw here doesn't matter a great deal.  You will have Miranda and Jacob.  Jacob should prioritize leveling Pull.  Miranda is the tough call since she is slightly better on Freedom's Progress with Overload, but she does not need it whatsoever on Professor (unless for Pyros).  I try to get Rank 2 on her here, then proceed with Warp for the next mission.  So Overload 2, Warp 2.  Or go Overload 3 Warp 1.  It isn't a big difference really.

 

Professor - Level 5 (10+1)

 

Warp 2

Throw 1

Singularity 2

Biotic Mastery 1

Slam 1

 

Alternatively if you had skipped Throw up until this point you can go Singularity 3.  It makes the most sense to take Miranda and Jacob here even if you acquired Zaeed and Kasumi.  Jacob will be leveled something like Pull 3 IA 1.  Miranda Overload 2, Warp 3.  Chain together Pull and Slam for armor stripped Vorcha on ledges.  Warp explosions for enemy clusters.  You might use Singularity more in the Blue Suns portion of the mission, but that section is relatively easier than the Blood Pack portion, IMO.

 

Archangel - Level 7 (14+1)

 

Warp 2

Throw 1

Singularity 3

Pull 1

Biotic Mastery 1

Slam 1

 

Miranda Overload 3 Warp 3.  Mordin Incineration Blast Cryo 1 or Incinerate 2 Cryo Blast 3.  It depends on if you want to max his ability on this mission (former) or get Full Cryo Blast for better performance on most missions (latter).  Former makes this mission easier most likely, and is also the better option if you retrained for Stasis already.  An alternative build for Shepard is skipping Throw and Pull altogether for Warp 3 here, but since you took Miranda, the above build is a little better in my view.  It also slightly depends on if you leave a squadmate with Archangel, which I tend to do.

 

Level 8 (16+1)

 

Warp 2

Throw 1

Singularity 3

Pull 1

Biotic Mastery 2

Stasis 1

 

Alternative is running straight to Heavy Singularity without Throw, Pull or Biotic Mastery 2, but depends partly on preferred squad and if you still want to briefly run Slam.  This may be academic if you do Firewalker around this point in the game.

 

Level 10 (20+1)

 

Warp 2

Throw 1

Heavy Singularity 4

Pull 1

Biotic Mastery 2

Stasis 1

 

As before if you are still on the No Throw / Pull path you can have Warp 3 here or Biotic Mastery 3.

 

Horizon - Level 12 (24+1)

 

Warp 3

Throw 1

Heavy Singularity 4

Pull 1

Biotic Mastery 3

Stasis 1

 

Build here depends on style and team more than anything.  Stasis 1 trivializes the Scions with or without glitching the damage.  Heavy Singularity is useful for Harbinger, but redundant if you take loyal Kasumi.  Warp 3 is slightly more important if you take Jacob or Jack relative to Miranda.  Mordin does respectable barrier damage with Incinerate or Cryo Blast, the latter also has a fast cooldown if it is leveled to Full, although Incineration Blast for group husk armor makes at least as much sense.

 

In any case the alternative would be Warp 2, No Throw, and Bastion.

 

Level 15 (30+1)

 

Warp 3

Throw 1

Heavy Singularity 4

Pull 1

Bastion 4

Stasis 1

 

Not much to say here except that if you plan to run Miranda and Garrus on recruitment missions you can back out of Warp 3 and already begin on Pull.  Or you can start with Pull going forward from here.  It greatly depends on how you want to play and what squadmates you prefer.

 

DCC Level 18 (36+1)

 

Warp 3

Throw 2

Heavy Singularity 4

Pull 3

Bastion 4

Stasis 1

 

The alternative is to go Pull Field with only Warp 2 Throw 2.  Pull Field is not ideal on this mission since there is a dearth of AOE Barrier stripping powers, although if you have Loyal Samara already with Area Reave and some biotic upgrades it can work.  It is more than possible to go through this mission without using Shepard's Warp at all though, and in fact pull will sometimes make units float off the platforms anyway.  I will upload a little vid of the alternative build with Thane and Miranda, both with Unstable Warp.

 

Anyway after this point if you are doing more Blue Suns / Eclipse missions, get Pull Field.  Or if you are doing a Blood Pack mission, get Warp 3, then go Pull Field.  As I said at the beginning it is all relative to who you want to take and what order you want to do the missions.