75 réponses à ce sujet

[Caja]

In movies I usually like both approaches, depending on the genre, but in games I prefer rivals. Loghain was a better villain IMO than the archdemon. There was a greater mystery behind his actions and I enjoyed it to get to the bottom of that.  

[Killdren88]

In movies I usually like both approaches, depending on the genre, but in games I prefer rivals. Loghain was a better villain IMO than the archdemon. There was a greater mystery behind his actions and I enjoyed it to get to the bottom of that.

Eh I didn't see that. He really just struck me as a paranoid isolationist individual who wouldn't trust foreigners to help save Fereldan.

[Inprea]

I guess I'm in opposition to both of those notions. I'm not sure how many of you played Starcraft but I loved using the Queen of Blades in combat. For those that haven't Kerrigan aka the Queen of Blades is an absolute terror on the battle field. I've used her to kill 1/3 to 1/2 of the enemy army before even involving the wrest of the army several times. You don't counter Kerrigan with anything short of a platoon of heavy units. I'm also a fan of Diablo 2 and 3 for similar reasons. The Skeleton king doesn't just fight you head on but summons an army of minions. For me one of the greatest things about startcraft is Kerrigan even in the storyline is a one woman army and she knows it as do her enemies. It's one thing to face the zerg it's quite another to face them when their Queen is leading the charge.

 

This is also why in mass effect I like to hop out of the mako when encountering a thresher maw or heavy geth unit and kill it on foot. Well that and the bonus experience for killing it on foot.

[Chibi Elemental]

I really love a mix, I love the character that is the same but different. Like TIM I really liked him as a counter balance to shep. I loved Saren in that role also but was more effective with TIM.

[Voxr]

I like both and they each have there pros and cons. I like rivals better because the DvG runs the risk of a villain becoming a Saturday morning cartoon villain. Though with rivals it can become stale because your just expecting them to foil/out-do each other until the hero wins.

[FranticPonies]

I'm getting tired of Bioware's reliance on "giant personalityless evil thing threatens world/galaxy/existence" So definitely "rival" as oppose to yet more "personalityless Goliaths"

 

None of the great movie or novel or even video game villains have ever been that. It seems like taking the easy way out when it comes to giving the player a reason to go forward with the quest and care about completing it. "Oh no, not destruction of the world, that's where I keep all my stuff!"

 

And it really keeps the ultimate "big bad" villain from having a good personality. Or any personality really beyond "giant evil thing wot is giant and evil." A more theatrical, actual person type villain as the main, real threat would be greatly appreciated at some point. Along with a plot that wasn't "giant evil thing will kill everyone unless you and you alone can stop them!" Especially as Bioware seems to be running out of reasons as to why you are the only one that can ever stop the thing that's never the less going to kill everyone and so really should be everyone's problem and not just yours.

[KC_Prototype]

Rivals.

[Aimi]

I like the rival thing a lot better when it's done right. Somebody like Pixy in Ace Combat 5. There has to be some hate there, but the hate has to make sense. Like, with Pixy, it's because you were comrades-in-arms for two-thirds of the game and he went AWOL, stabbed you in the back, and tried to destroy the world. That's a fairly good reason to hate. And the rival has to be a 'worthy' rival, too: somebody with a skillset that doesn't just make them a relative pushover. Pixy was near the top of the fighter pilot heap in a war filled with deadly aces, and his last plane's equipment made him the toughest single boss in the game series. That's a rival.

Somebody like Saren is a lot lamer. There's no history with Saren, no particular reason to loathe him and him specifically. He clashed with Shepard's mentor a long time ago in events that only get a sterile description from Anderson and little else. He's barely visible in the game: there's little sense of competition between him and Shepard. You only fight him three times - twice in many cases - and he's not exactly deadly any of those times. He was an all right enemy, but he wasn't the kind of ingrained-hate Rival-With-A-Capital-R that I would've liked.

Underdog stories are kinda similar, I guess. Almost every story has some aspect of "trying to beat the odds" in it, which is fine. The problem is that most writers aren't very good at coming up with convincing reasons for the odds to have been beaten.

[NewBlue]

The most satisfying villain to overcome to me is most definitely a rival. Saren, Loghain, Kai Leng, Letho  The more personal the story the better. Give me a reason to kill other than them being some big thing that isn't human and needs to die because it affected all these OTHER people.

[Darth Death]

DAI might have a slight reminiscent tone to the David vs. Goliath model.   

 

 

The Inquisitor= David

 

Inquisitor's green hand= slingshot

 

Thedas plunged into chaos= Goliath 

[Killdren88]

DAI might have a slight reminiscent tone to the David vs. Goliath model.   

 

 

The Inquisitor= David

 

Inquisitor's green hand= slingshot

 

Thedas plunged into chaos= Goliath 

 

Wouldn't Goliath be the one responsible for the chaos The "He will raise!" fellow I assume.

[AtreiyaN7]

In a game villain, I just want to see someone intelligent who possesses a complex personality and motivations - kind of like Makishima Shogo in Psycho-Pass (one of my favorite sci-fi anime series which I have just finished watching again recently). I suppose you would categorize him as a rival to one of the main protagonists.

[Aurawolf]

I don't care which as long as it makes for a good freaking story and fun to play. Overpowered baddies can be cool when done right and the other can be said for characters equal to you.

 

I guess if I really had to pick I would say characters that might seemed overpowered like say they control armies but the actual main bad guy is on par with you so when it comes to the final battle they have some tricks that make it difficult for you but are not ridiculasly powerful.

[L. Han]

It depends mostly on the tone and the theme of the story. But I actually would like to see antagonists who are actually related to you. Like in Tactics Ogre your hotheaded friend becomes the rival depending on what choices you make. Kinda enjoyed it.

[Orian Tabris]

I really like the sound of having a rival antagonist... but in a mature setting (not like Gary and those guys, in Pokémon).

[the_last_krogan]

A super powered villain

[Caja]

Eh I didn't see that. He really just struck me as a paranoid isolationist individual who wouldn't trust foreigners to help save Fereldan.

Fair point. What I wished to say was that Loghain is the more interesting villain compared to the archdemon. Well, at least for me. You interpret Loghain's actions differently and that is fine. But at least he had a better motif than "I want to conquer the world and spread evil" . And that's why I prefer rivals in games.

[Kidd]

I like any villain who is well-written.

 

I recommend any one who believes the Goliath type has to mean something like the Reapers to play Baldur's Gate 2. Jon Irenicus is definitely in the position of a Goliath. Yet he's one of my favourite villains of all time with an interesting mystery to his own identity, menacing abilities and great voice over.

[Farci Reprimer]

I think the Kingslayer Letho from Witcher 2 is a good example of villain done right when looking at the recent RPG stories.

Antagonist who is in equal footing with the protagonist(Geralt), mysterious, challenges you to think and most of all: is capable of making mistakes and errors.

It is not so much about who is physically stronger in the end. It is about who has the ever changing odds and cards in their favour.

 

And that is exactly what I would want the villain in DAI to be.

[Heimdall]

In movies I usually like both approaches, depending on the genre, but in games I prefer rivals. Loghain was a better villain IMO than the archdemon. There was a greater mystery behind his actions and I enjoyed it to get to the bottom of that.  

in principle, I agree, but I think Loghain was poorly handled.

 

At first blush, I didn't think there was any mystery behind his actions, just a naked power grab.  Even later, when it became apparent that there were more nationalistic sentiments behind his motivations, he mostly just came across as irrational.

 

I mostly prefer the rival type villain myself, they tend to be more level headed and their motivations are more level headed.

[Darth Death]

Wouldn't Goliath be the one responsible for the chaos The "He will raise!" fellow I assume.

Depends on how you want to look at it. Goliath can be a physical person or circumstances, but what they have in common is that they present an overwhelming challenge to the individual facing it. Goliath was more than just a giant, he represented intimidation, despair, & difficulty. I'm speaking figuratively when presenting some of these examples:

 

 

Goliath as a person:

 

"It seems pointless. No matter what I do, I can't get her/his approval."  

 

The Goliath could be your boss, mother, father, friend, etc. 

 

 

 

Goliath as a non-person:

 

"I was evicted from my apartment 3 days ago. Shortly after that, I lost my job. It feels like life itself is closing in on me." 

 

The Goliath could be life, your job, college, etc. 

 

 

 

A challenge leading to despair can be interpret as being a Goliath. In conclusion, it depends on how you want to look at it. 

[Sidney]

in principle, I agree, but I think Loghain was poorly handled.

 

At first blush, I didn't think there was any mystery behind his actions, just a naked power grab.  Even later, when it became apparent that there were more nationalistic sentiments behind his motivations, he mostly just came across as irrational.

 

I mostly prefer the rival type villain myself, they tend to be more level headed and their motivations are more level headed.

 

 

In fairness irrational describes a lot of villians. It is that irrational step that takes someone from, for example, a religious devotee who has faith and lives a pious life and turns them into a fanatic willing to kill those who don't share their faith.  To an extent if the villian isn't irrational and is just being reasonable why the hell are we off trying to kill him?

[Heimdall]

In fairness irrational describes a lot of villians. It is that irrational step that takes someone from, for example, a religious devotee who has faith and lives a pious life and turns them into a fanatic willing to kill those who don't share their faith.  To an extent if the villian isn't irrational and is just being reasonable why the hell are we off trying to kill him?

Conflict of interest?  A villain doesn't have to be a cackling evil-doer to be opposed to the protagonist.

 

The problem with Loghain was that seemed by trying to fit him into the mold of a tyrant that didn't quite fit him while simultaneously trying to make his concerns seem justified, but never really giving us a reason to believe the Orlesian threat was at all real.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Rivals With Their Own Kickass Theme Songs.