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Blood & Magic: Where are the lines drawn?

Débuté par Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_* , juil. 28 2014 01:49

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#1
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 01:49

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I think the fanbase needs some meta clarification on what does or doesn't constitute blood magic. Blood has power in Thedas. Dagna, Maker bless her, theorized that mages can cast spells due to a high concentration of lyrium in their blood (mana). Regardless of whether she's right or wrong we can all safely assume that in the world of Dragon Age blood is intrinsically magical. 

 

Things get blurry however when we try to distinguish rituals that require blood as a component and blood magic (the School of spells). For the sake of a better narrative the ambiguity needs to exist. I understand that much. But shouldn't the ambiguity remain in the setting?

 

The Chantry and the Templar Order surely looks at everything that involves blood with the scrutiny of fervorous zealots because it threatens their influence and has the potential to be dangerous (they're half right I'll give them that). But the Templar Order itself uses phylacteries to track down apostates or maleficar that has escaped their control.

 

Similarly the Wardens use blood from darkspawn and past Archdemons in their Joining ritual to channel the taint. There's also the ritual Finn used to locate the Lights of Arlathan. Then there's Morrigan's ritual that uses blood (as a component?) to cleanse Urthemiel's soul from the taint. Merril also uses blood to cleanse the Eluvian (I do not dispute this is blood magic because she says herself  she's using blood as a power source instead of lyrium).

 

So where are the lines drawn? In my mind blood magic shouldn't be used as label that encompasses all rituals and potions that use blood as a component. Blood magic is the school of spells that uses blood as a power source as opposed to lyrium or mana, manipulates the blood within living creatures, and controls the mind of other humanoids. Thus rituals that use blood as a chemical component should not be regarded as such by the fanbase. Understandably the good common folk of southern Thedas would think otherwise after 9 Ages of systematic prejudice against mages. 

 

Maybe this will get the attention of the developers and will be supported or debunked. If the latter is the case I'll take comfort in knowing I was wrong and in having learned there is no distinction between the two. 


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#2
Maria Caliban
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 02:07

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It's not so much that clarification is needed as, like the qunari, people struggle with the idea that a single term can mean more than one thing.

Blood Magic is:

1) Any magical spell powered by blood. This is the 'intuitive' form of blood magic as many mages can simply sense the potential within them.
2) A unique school of magic with its own spells and rituals.

Two different ideas packed within the same term. Different people will use these terms differently because magic is something the average person doesn't understand. I'm sure that there are commoners who call necromancers malificarium because they're too ignorant to know it means more than 'really scary mage with scary magic.'
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#3
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 02:15

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I agree with you. It's just that I've seen people erroneously claim that the Joining and the Anvil of the Void are examples of blood magic without trying to distinguish the nuance. And thanks for replying Maria. 


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#4
dragonflight288
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 02:40

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They probably get that opinion from Wynne, who says that the power of the Anvil sounds too similar to blood magic for her comfort. 


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#5
cjones91
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 02:43

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They probably get that opinion from Wynne, who says that the power of the Anvil sounds too similar to blood magic for her comfort. 

Considering dwarven lives are used to create golems she's isn't far off the mark.


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#6
Master Warder Z_
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 02:45

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Considering dwarven lives are used to create golems she's isn't far off the mark.

 

Everything comes with price.


#7
dragonflight288
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 02:47

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Considering dwarven lives are used to create golems she's isn't far off the mark.

 

True, but it isn't officially blood magic either. 

 

I won't condone the practice, it is pretty vile. But on the other hand, one dwarf lost, one golem gained. The numbers remain the same. 

 

Still a horrid practice, but isn't officially blood magic. Blood isn't being used to power a spell, and it isn't part of any school of magic. It's a lyrium powered smithing technique. 

 

I know I'm splitting hairs. 


#8
cjones91
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 02:48

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Everything comes with price.

Agreed.


#9
cjones91
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 02:51

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True, but it isn't officially blood magic either. 

 

I won't condone the practice, it is pretty vile. But on the other hand, one dwarf lost, one golem gained. The numbers remain the same. 

 

Still a horrid practice, but isn't officially blood magic. Blood isn't being used to power a spell, and it isn't part of any school of magic. It's a lyrium powered smithing technique. 

 

I know I'm splitting hairs. 

Both the creation of golems and blood magic require a sacrifice of life.The golem process is more horrifying in my opinion because the dwarve loses any trace of self will(Shale is the exception to this only because her control rod was broken.)


#10
Jazzpha
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 02:57

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I've seen the whole Blood Magic distinction like this:

 

In a cut conversation in DAO, if you used Blood Magic in the Circle Tower Wynne calls you out on it, leading the Templars and Mages to both attack you for being a maleficar. If you try to talk your way out of it, Irving mentions that the Grey Wardens possess some "off the books" magic that only their members use, since the Grey Wardens are uber-pragmatists who do whatever they have to to wipe out the Darkspawn. It's only when Wynne presses the issue and you admit it was blood magic that Irving gets disappointed and says "You were powerful enough without using Blood Magic... do what you must, Greiagor," and that's that.

 

So my guess is that "Blood Magic" as frowned upon by the Circle is the kind of blood magic that goes beyond utilitarian purposes (like the Arlathan magic or repairing the Eluvian) and goes into the territory of domination of another human's body. This distinction is likely in place because that kind of blood-magic domination is what the Tevinter Mages used to help cement the dominance of their empire.

 

So yeah, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, there seems to be a difference between magic that just happens to use blood (which is looked at with suspicion but not immediate grounds for a beheading unless you're getting your militant Templar on), and "Blood Magic", which is more "I'm going to make you kill your friend over there and then stab yourself in the face, because I can. And I'll do it while I boil the blood in your veins, because I can also do that."


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#11
Basement Cat
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:05

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I think the fact that many mages learn it from demons also doesn't help blood magic's reputation. The Templars are notoriously paranoid (with good reason) and I doubt there is any way to tell a 'clean' blood mage from a demon bargaining one.


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#12
Master Warder Z_
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:07

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I think the fact that many mages learn it from demons also doesn't help blood magic's reputation. The Templars are notoriously paranoid (with good reason) and I doubt there is any way to tell a 'clean' blood mage from a demon bargaining one.

 

-_- Any Blood Magic practice that isn't Scyring should get beheaded.


#13
EmperorSahlertz
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:09

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They probably get that opinion from Wynne, who says that the power of the Anvil sounds too similar to blood magic for her comfort. 

If Dwarves can "do magic" in the form of bending lyrium into runes, it isn't too far o a stretch that they can perform some sort of Blood magic. Now granted, Blood Magic is also a blanket term used to denote most illegal forms of magic.


#14
Tenebrae
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:10

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Well for me the answer is simple, blood magic by its very detention would encompass any spell who's main catalyst is blood, alas the Chantry tends to label any magic they deem to "dangerous" as blood magic.

 

Its equivalent to our real world use of the term Nazi/Fascist where most people tend to throw these words at anything they disagree with, so much so that the value of the word/title decrease, the same is true for the Chantry's use of the "Blood Magic" label it is so overused that you cant help but role your eyes at it.


#15
Master Warder Z_
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:13

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Well for me the answer is simple, blood magic by its very detention would encompass any spell who's main catalyst is blood, alas the Chantry tends to label any magic they deem to "dangerous" as blood magic.

 

Its equivalent to our real world use of the term Nazi/Fascist where most people tend to throw these words at anything they disagree with, so much so that the value of the word/title decrease, the same is true for the Chantry's use of the "Blood Magic" label it is so overused that you cant help but role your eyes at it.

 

*Thinks Back*

 

...I recall most of the Chantry aligned people only speaking of Blood Magic when they were certain it was involved OR when the PC questions them about blood magic being involved.

 

So either they suspect it being used in a case ( Honestly in most cases they happen to be right on this) or the PC themselves mentions it and they respond.


#16
dragonflight288
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:21

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-_- Any Blood Magic practice that isn't Scyring should get beheaded.

 

hehehe, you made this too easy. 

 

KILL TEMPLARS USING PHYLACTERIES! lol.  :lol: Gaider has said that phylacteries are blood magic.

 

KILL ALL WARDENS BECAUSE THE JOINING RITUAL IS BLOOD MAGIC! Gaider also said this is blood magic because it uses blood, archdemon and darkspawn blood, but still blood. 

 

That's the problem with blood magic, as defined by the chantry. Anything whatsoever that uses blood is considered blood magic. Heck, Tome of the Mortal Vessel's item description says that even anatomical studies are banned by many because it is considered blood magic. 

 

:rolleyes:


#17
Tenebrae
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:22

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*Thinks Back*

 

...I recall most of the Chantry aligned people only speaking of Blood Magic when they were certain it was involved OR when the PC questions them about blood magic being involved.

 

So either they suspect it being used in a case ( Honestly in most cases they happen to be right on this) or the PC themselves mentions it and they respond.

 

I was addressing the Chantry usage of the term "Blood Magic" (ie: blood magic=evil/bad) not the school itself, they tend to use it to catalogue what they view as dangerous magic.


#18
Master Warder Z_
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:24

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I was addressing the Chantry usage of the term "Blood Magic" not the school itself, they tend to use it to catalogue what they view as dangerous magic.

 

...When? I mean i don't recall this very happening rather then in the assumption that Meredith made in assuming all three escaped apostates in (on the run) were Blood Mages, and therefore Dangerous.

 

Do you mean in codex's? because i cannot honestly recall one in universe example of this.


#19
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:26

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hehehe, you made this too easy. 

 

KILL TEMPLARS USING PHYLACTERIES! lol.  :lol: Gaider has said that phylacteries are blood magic.

 

KILL ALL WARDENS BECAUSE THE JOINING RITUAL IS BLOOD MAGIC! Gaider also said this is blood magic because it uses blood, archdemon and darkspawn blood, but still blood. 

 

That's the problem with blood magic, as defined by the chantry. Anything whatsoever that uses blood is considered blood magic. Heck, Tome of the Mortal Vessel's item description says that even anatomical studies are banned by many because it is considered blood magic. 

 

:rolleyes:

 

And this is what I think needs clarification. Are phylacteries and the Joining (and similar rituals) "blood magic as defined by the Chantry" or are they blood magic.


#20
Hellion Rex
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:28

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And this is what I think needs clarification. Are phylacteries and the Joining (and similar rituals) "blood magic as defined by the Chantry" or are they blood magic.

They are flat out blood magic. However, they are necessary exceptions to the rule.


#21
Jazzpha
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:28

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And this is what I think needs clarification. Are phylacteries and the Joining (and similar rituals) 'blood magic as defined by the Chantry' or are they blood magic.

 

I don't know if the phylacteries are ceded to be Blood Magic by the Chantry explicitly (probably not, for PR reasons), but in "Asunder" Evangeline the Templar directly ruminates on the 'hypocrisy' inherent on using the phylacteries (which she recognizes are powered by Blood Magic) to track down mages. She gets a bitter chuckle out of the "it's for the greater good" justification the Templars use, for that matter.


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#22
dragonflight288
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:30

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And this is what I think needs clarification. Are phylacteries and the Joining (and similar rituals) "blood magic as defined by the Chantry" or are they blood magic.

 

Lady Insanity had an interview with David Gaider, and they discussed a lot of what's coming in Inquistion, and in one part of the interview they discussed blood magic. 

 

http://www.ladyinsan...terview-gaymerx

 

Gaider says that phylacteries, the grey warden ritual and such ARE forms of blood magic. 


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#23
Tenebrae
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:30

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...When? I mean i don't recall this very happening rather then in the assumption that Meredith made in assuming all three escaped apostates in (on the run) were Blood Mages, and therefore Dangerous.

 

Do you mean in codex's? because i cannot honestly recall one in universe example of this.

 

It circles back to the question "What is blood magic?", if blood is a component but is not the main catalyst for the spell is it still blood magic?, the chantry would say "yes" while i and any mage with common sense would say no.


#24
Hellion Rex
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:32

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It circles back to the question "What is blood magic?", if blood is a component but is not the main catalyst for the spell is it still blood magic?, the chantry would say "yes" while i and any mage with common sense would say no.

Any magic that has a blood as a component is blood magic, period.


#25
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
Posté 28 juillet 2014 - 03:33

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They are flat out blood magic. However, they are necessary exceptions to the rule.

 

Any magic that has a blood as a component is blood magic, period.

 

I don't like/buy that. Like I mentioned in the OP, blood is intrinsically magical. If we follow the rules established by the Chantry cooking and eating a steak medium rare could be considered blood magic. 

 

Johane Harimann was born a non-mage and yet through a little demon worship she learned how to use her own blood to cast spells. 


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