61 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

Lady Insanity had an interview with David Gaider, and they discussed a lot of what's coming in Inquistion, and in one part of the interview they discussed blood magic. 

 

http://www.ladyinsan...terview-gaymerx

 

Gaider says that phylacteries, the grey warden ritual and such ARE forms of blood magic. 

 

And three weeks from now he will contradict that, and be like "I said that?"  "I honestly don't remember much of that conversation" Like he has about many things in the past.

 

Gaider can write a storyboard but he can be incorrect occasionally, even when it comes to his own lore, when he later decides he doesn't like a particular idea or it was misconstrued.

[Dabrikishaw]

I've always thought of Blood Magic in Dragon age as any magic fueled by blood. So stuff like the Joining would count but not using the Anvil of the Void.

[Master Warder Z_]

Any magic that has a blood as a component is blood magic, period.

 

I'd say any magic powered by blood is blood magic, and that is the distinction, and i believe it to be quite a reasonable one in fact.

[Hellion Rex]

I don't like/buy that. Like I mentioned in the OP, blood is intrinsically magical. If we follow the rules established by the Chantry cooking and eating a steak medium rare could be considered blood magic.

Johane Harimann was born a non-mage and yet through a little demon worship she learned how to use her own blood to cast spells.

For all we know, Lady Harimann hid her abilities as a mage from her family.

[Dabrikishaw]

For all we know, Lady Harimann hid her abilities as a mage from her family.

I thought she gained magical abilities from her deal with that Desire demon myself.

[Hellion Rex]

I'd say any magic powered by blood is blood magic, and that is the distinction, and i believe it to be quite a reasonable one in fact.

"Component" is a very weird phrase to use, I'll admit. Powered by is a better way to say it, I guess. And I agree with you.

The Joining is powered by darkspawn and Archdemon blood. Phylacteries are powered by a mages blood. And the scrying spell used Ariane's blood.

[dragonflight288]

...When? I mean i don't recall this very happening rather then in the assumption that Meredith made in assuming all three escaped apostates in (on the run) were Blood Mages, and therefore Dangerous.

 

Do you mean in codex's? because i cannot honestly recall one in universe example of this.

 

This codex makes it clear that the chantry goes out of its way to blur the line between apostate and maleficar. 

 

Also, both Wynne and Alistair call Morrigan a maleficar despite her not being a blood mage but a shapeshifter. She practices a school of magic not taught in the Circles, thereby not sanctioned by the Chantry, and immediately qualifies as maleficar because of it. 

 

Codex Entry: Apostates

 

It is not uncommon for the neophyte to mistake apostates andmaleficarum as one and the same. Indeed, the Chantry has gone to great lengths over the centuries to establish that this is so. The truth, however, is that while an apostate is often a maleficar, he need not be so. A maleficar is a mage who employs forbidden knowledge such as blood magic and the summoning of demons, whereas an apostate is merely any mage who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle of Magi(and therefore the Chantry). They are hunted by the templars, and quite often they will turn to forbidden knowledge in order to survive, but it would be a lie to say that all apostates begin that way.

Historically, apostates become such in one of two ways: They are either mages who have escaped from the Circle or mages who were never part of it to begin with. This latter category includes what we tend to refer to as "hedge mages"--those with magical ability out in the hinterlands who follow a different magical tradition than our own. Some of these hedge mages are not even aware of their nature. Undeveloped, their abilities can express themselves in a variety of ways, which the hedge mage might attribute to faith, or will, or to another being entirely (depending on his nature). Some of these traditions are passed down from generation to generation, as with the so-called "witches" of the Chasind wilders or the "shamans" of the Avvarbarbarians.

No matter how a mage has become apostate, the Chantry treats them alike: Templars begin a systematic hunt to bring the apostate to justice. In almost all cases, "justice" is execution. If there is some overriding reason the mage should live, the Rite of Tranquility is employed instead. Whether we of the Circle of Magi believe this system fair is irrelevant: It is what it is.

--From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed.

[Hellion Rex]

Now you're moving the goal posts. Irregardless of whether she was a mage or not, blood is still magical. Period. So anything that involves it can be considered blood magic by your definition.

Hold up here. I'm lost as to where you got the idea that I don't think blood is magical. And I don't even know why you brought up Harimann to begin with.

[Tenebrae]

Any magic that has a blood as a component is blood magic, period.

I stand with mister Knight on this one,a fire spell that has lightning as a component does not become a lightning spell and vice versa, so to view any spell that has blood as a component and not as the catalyst seems silly,that very narrow view of magic might work for the Chantry but they reeks of ignorance so i wouldn't any put stock in their definition.

[Tenebrae]

This codex makes it clear that the chantry goes out of its way to blur the line between apostate and maleficar. 

 

Also, both Wynne and Alistair call Morrigan a maleficar despite her not being a blood mage but a shapeshifter. She practices a school of magic not taught in the Circles, thereby not sanctioned by the Chantry, and immediately qualifies as maleficar because of it. 

 

Codex Entry: Apostates

 

It is not uncommon for the neophyte to mistake apostates andmaleficarum as one and the same. Indeed, the Chantry has gone to great lengths over the centuries to establish that this is so. The truth, however, is that while an apostate is often a maleficar, he need not be so. A maleficar is a mage who employs forbidden knowledge such as blood magic and the summoning of demons, whereas an apostate is merely any mage who does not fall under the auspices of the Circle of Magi(and therefore the Chantry). They are hunted by the templars, and quite often they will turn to forbidden knowledge in order to survive, but it would be a lie to say that all apostates begin that way.

Historically, apostates become such in one of two ways: They are either mages who have escaped from the Circle or mages who were never part of it to begin with. This latter category includes what we tend to refer to as "hedge mages"--those with magical ability out in the hinterlands who follow a different magical tradition than our own. Some of these hedge mages are not even aware of their nature. Undeveloped, their abilities can express themselves in a variety of ways, which the hedge mage might attribute to faith, or will, or to another being entirely (depending on his nature). Some of these traditions are passed down from generation to generation, as with the so-called "witches" of the Chasind wilders or the "shamans" of the Avvarbarbarians.

No matter how a mage has become apostate, the Chantry treats them alike: Templars begin a systematic hunt to bring the apostate to justice. In almost all cases, "justice" is execution. If there is some overriding reason the mage should live, the Rite of Tranquility is employed instead. Whether we of the Circle of Magi believe this system fair is irrelevant: It is what it is.

--From Patterns Within Form, by Halden, First Enchanter of Starkhaven, 8:80 Blessed.

Cheers.

[Jazzpha]

Without blood in them, the phylacteries couldn't even exist, let alone function. As such, they are powered by the use of blood magic. And they are blood magic. It's literally magical blood.

 

That the Templar Order is cool with using them anyway for their utility is a different matter, and a more ethics-rooted one (hypocrisy y/n?).

 

For the purposes of trying to establish if, foundationally, phylacteries are Blood Magic, then yeah, they absolutely are.

[Hellion Rex]

I stand with mister Knight on this one,a fire spell that has lightning as a component does not become a lightning spell and vice versa, so to view any spell that has blood as a component and not the catalyst seems silly,that very narrow view of magic might work for the Chantry but they reeks of ignorance so i wouldn't any put stock in their definition.

First of all, your lightning and few example makes no sense.

Secondly, neither of them are as inherently powerful and magical as blood. Using blood in a spell will invariably make it stronger, which is completely different when "adding lightning" to a fire spell.

[Tenebrae]

First of all, your lightning and few example makes no sense.

Secondly, neither of them are as inherently powerful and magical as blood. Using blood in a spell will invariably make it stronger, which is completely different when "adding lightning" to a fire spell.

How so? Adding a dash of lightning to a fireball would increase its effectiveness, but it would not turn it into a lightning spell.

 

The basics are the same, the main "fuel" of the spell is what defines it a component might enhance the spell but it does not change its classification, no matter the power of said component.

[Hellion Rex]

Ok, I think we are crossing wires here when we are trying to discuss the subject.

When you speak of a spell that only uses blood as a component, can you give me an example?

[dragonflight288]

How so? Adding a dash of lightning to a fireball would increase its effectiveness, but it would not turn it into a lightning spell.

 

The basics are the same, the main "fuel" of the spell is what defines it a component might enhance the spell but it does not change its classification, no matter the power of said component.

 

Lightening does not augment the fire's inherent power, nor does it provide a source of mana to provide the power in place of a mages natural connection to the fade or lyrium. 

 

Blood does both. 

[Master Warder Z_]

"Component" is a very weird phrase to use, I'll admit. Powered by is a better way to say it, I guess. And I agree with you.

The Joining is powered by darkspawn and Archdemon blood. Phylacteries are powered by a mages blood. And the scrying spell used Ariane's blood.

 

Scrying can be done with out blood, presumably from what we can gather from lore, adding it merely makes it more precise, so i would argue, that component didn't power much period.

 

And the Joining, uses those as chemical components, to me that's more akin to Alchemy actually more so then magic.

[Tenebrae]

Ok, I think we are crossing wires here when we are trying to discuss the subject.

When you speak of a spell that only uses blood as a component, can you give me an example?

 

Lets say you cast a Firestorm, when you cast the spell your primary catalyst is manna in the form of element energy if you use blood to enhance the spell it does not become blood magic it is still an elemental spell, yes blood is a component but as long as its not the main catalyst i find it quite silly to classify it as blood magic.

[Tenebrae]

Lightening does not augment the fire's inherent power, nor does it provide a source of mana to provide the power in place of a mages natural connection to the fade or lyrium. 

 

Blood does both. 

 

While it does not augment fires inherent power it still enhances the power of the spell, just like blood would.

[dragonflight288]

Lets say you cast a Firestorm, when you cast the spell your primary catalyst is manna in the form of element energy if you use blood to enhance the spell does not become blood magic it is still an elemental spell, yes blood is a component but as long as its not the main catalyst i find it quite silly to classify it as blood magic.

 

And yet the fact that it becomes powered by blood makes it blood magic. Like it or not, it is what it is. If you cast it augmented by lyrium, it is not blood magic. If you cast it based on your own natural power, it is not blood magic. If you power it or augment it with blood, it becomes blood magic. 

 

Spells powered by blood are considerably more difficult for templars to negate because it's bound in the physical, not the ephemeral, which their lyrium helps them disrupt. 

 

I think the classification comes in because the templars have a considerably harder time stopping a spell powered by blood than one that isn't. 

[Tenebrae]

And yet the fact that it becomes powered by blood makes it blood magic. Like it or not, it is what it is. If you cast it augmented by lyrium, it is not blood magic. If you cast it based on your own natural power, it is not blood magic. If you power it or augment it with blood, it becomes blood magic. 

 

Spells powered by blood are considerably more difficult for templars to negate because it's bound in the physical, not the ephemeral, which their lyrium helps them disrupt. 

 

I think the classification comes in because the templars have a considerably harder time stopping a spell powered by blood than one that isn't. 

 

Yes the Chantry would view that as blood magic I'm not claiming otherwise, but whether or not you subscribe to the Chantry's views on what constitutes blood magic or not is a matter of preference.

 

I for one have no interesting letting an inherently ignorant organization dictate my views on magic.

[TK514]

True, but it isn't officially blood magic either. 

 

I won't condone the practice, it is pretty vile. But on the other hand, one dwarf lost, one golem gained. The numbers remain the same. 

 

Still a horrid practice, but isn't officially blood magic. Blood isn't being used to power a spell, and it isn't part of any school of magic. It's a lyrium powered smithing technique. 

 

I know I'm splitting hairs. 

 

 

Both the creation of golems and blood magic require a sacrifice of life.The golem process is more horrifying in my opinion because the dwarve loses any trace of self will(Shale is the exception to this only because her control rod was broken.)

 

I don't find the creation of golems and more or less horrific than the Joining, so long as the subject is a volunteer.  In many ways they are the same, namely a sacrifice of the self for a perceived greater purpose.

 

From my perspective, if golem creation were tied to any school of magic I would expect it to be an offshoot of spirit.

[TK514]

And three weeks from now he will contradict that, and be like "I said that?"  "I honestly don't remember much of that conversation" Like he has about many things in the past.

 

Gaider can write a storyboard but he can be incorrect occasionally, even when it comes to his own lore, when he later decides he doesn't like a particular idea or it was misconstrued.

 

I find the vacillation frustrating.  I don't care one way or the other, I just want them to stop waffling on the issue.

[LobselVith8]

Lady Insanity had an interview with David Gaider, and they discussed a lot of what's coming in Inquistion, and in one part of the interview they discussed blood magic. 

 

http://www.ladyinsan...terview-gaymerx

 

Gaider says that phylacteries, the grey warden ritual and such ARE forms of blood magic. 

 

Gaider has said a few times in the past that the Joining and the phylacteries are forms of blood magic, so his interview is consistent with what he's said in the past on the matter. I'm not certain why some people act as though this is the first time Gaider has stated such, considering it's been brought up repeatedly in the past during discussions on blood magic.

[Tremere]

Personally, I think this whole mismash of what makes this blood magic versus that is just a vehicle to power the conversation. From my perspective, blood is only a catalyst in the sense that it provides the medium to charge a spell, like lyrium. Mana, is a product of will and can be enhanced by both blood and lyrium. This explains why it recharges over time without any enhancement. In regards to lyrium, this is how Templar abilities are enhanced. With that in mind, is it out of the realm of possibility for a Templar to use blood to enhance his abilities? To that I point you to the Reaver discipline, which can be learned by a Templar if he so chooses. The question then becomes less about the magic/discipline itself and more about the means to power it.

 

Referencing the commentary of Tenebrae, I agree that casting an elemental spell using the power of your blood, does not make it blood magic. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the term "blood magic" is a bugaboo created by the (Devs)/Chantry. Why? Because by the same token, vast amounts of lyrium can be used to enhance a spell beyond it's "natural" potency. For example, a Templar may by the force of his will be able to invoke Holy Smite, but by being "lyrium enhanced" that discipline becomes exponentially more effective. This doesn't even address the fact that Templars (over time) become lyrium addled and yet you never hear of the dangers of this state. On the contrary, blood magic corrupts every mage who uses it. (I'm smelling *hypocrisy* here.) Along with this, you very rarely see/hear mention of the capability of the mage/templar in question. Using blood or vast amounts of lyrium isn't going to turn a novice mage into a senior enchanter. Nor is vast amounts of lyrium going to make an initiate as capable as a Knight-Commander. If blood-magic was as devastatingly indefensible as so many claim, why are Templars still able to confront and defeat blood mages?

 

In regards to the games, you'll remember during the events at Redcliffe, that the player could be sent into the fade via lyrium or blood magic. We could argue over degrees and amounts, but the bottom line is that the goal could be accomplished by both means. So what are we really talking about here? In my mind, I think the Chantry (and thus the Templar Order) wants to keep the lines blurred in order to justify it's own existence and purpose. Blood magic may be frowned upon because it cuts at the very existence of mankind (blood = life), which is an understandable pillar upon which to place your aversion to it, but at the end of the day, "the evil" is found in the heart of the practitioner, and on that note, I'm no more prepared to believe that every blood mage is a maleficar, any more than I'm prepared to believe that every Templar is pious and just.