228 réponses à ce sujet

[SporkFu]

Best way to protect them is to leave them in dark space and let the destroyers to all the work. Why take the chance of putting them in harm's way regardless of how tough they are?

From a reaper's POV, I don't think "safe" even enters into the equation. They're all arrogant bastards and organics mean nothing to them.

[ImaginaryMatter]

 Because the Citadel is the heart of galactic civilization, with nearly all species having an interest in protecting it. Trying to take it by force would result in many Reaper ship casualties, which equate to the loss of entire civilizations, whereas indoctrinated agents (like TIM, who is the reason they got it back just before Priority: Earth) are expendable and can be thrown at it endlessly until one of them finally breaks through.

 

Can't think about it from a pure military perspective. Reapers must keep their ships safe at all costs.

 

If that was the case why bother putting the harvested species in ships that are constantly in combat? Surely a few capital ships must be lost every cycle when attacking something like a home world. It just doesn't seem like a particularly smart plan if protecting the harvested species is somehow a priority. Why not at least have other weaponized ships along side the Reapers that are just tech?

 

Also, if TIM was able to sneak in why couldn't they use a similar plan much earlier before the security became much stricter? Does any one else find it a little too coincidental that the Reaper plan to take the Citadel only fell into place or finally worked almost immediately after they found out about the Crucible? Couldn't they rush in when Cerberus initiated the coup? Couldn't they use a similar plan as Cerberus? Couldn't they bum rush the place super fast (before Earth) and catch everyone by surprise?

[ENIGMATIQ]

Also, if TIM was able to sneak in why couldn't they use a similar plan much earlier before the security became much stricter? Does any one else find it a little too coincidental that the Reaper plan to take the Citadel only fell into place or finally worked almost immediately after they found out about the Crucible? Couldn't they rush in when Cerberus initiated the coup? Couldn't they use a similar plan as Cerberus? Couldn't they bum rush the place super fast (before Earth) and catch everyone by surprise?

And here, ladies and gentleman, is living proof of players of a game actually putting more thought into the game than the actual developers.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love ME3 (including the endings) and always will, but when inconsistencies are this obvious, something's wrong.

 

A round of applause for ImaginaryMatter

[von uber]

The Reapers had shares in the main manufacturer of waist high objects located on the Citadel and they wanted to maximise their profits as much as possible.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Reapers had shares in the main manufacturer of waste high objects located on the Citadel and they wanted to maximise their profits as much as possible.

 

That makes sense. Commodities, luxury items, etc. not to mention shipping costs must be astronomical out in dark space and I doubt the Catalyst pays well (that little kid seems like a cheap little SOB).

[JasonShepard]

Also, if TIM was able to sneak in why couldn't they use a similar plan much earlier before the security became much stricter? Does any one else find it a little too coincidental that the Reaper plan to take the Citadel only fell into place or finally worked almost immediately after they found out about the Crucible? Couldn't they rush in when Cerberus initiated the coup? Couldn't they use a similar plan as Cerberus? Couldn't they bum rush the place super fast (before Earth) and catch everyone by surprise?

 

If you wish, I can offer you a contrived explanation that matches the in-game facts, but doesn't actually have any evidence to back it up...

 

So, basically, a fanon patch for that unexplained bit of plot. Of course, then someone will pick holes in my theory, I'll modify it to improve it. Then someone else will pick other holes that may or may not even actually be holes in the theory, and I'm not sure anyone actually comes away from this feeling satisfied at the end of the day...

 

Still, the offer stands. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

If you wish, I can offer you a contrived explanation that matches the in-game facts, but doesn't actually have any evidence to back it up...

 

So, basically, a fanon patch for that unexplained bit of plot. Of course, then someone will pick holes in my theory, I'll modify it to improve it. Then someone else will pick other holes that may or may not even actually be holes in the theory, and I'm not sure anyone actually comes away from this feeling satisfied at the end of the day...

 

Still, the offer stands. 

 

No. I'm good.

 

Thanks for the offer though.

[Daemul]

And here, ladies and gentleman, is living proof of players of a game actually putting more thought into the game than the actual developers.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love ME3 (including the endings) and always will, but when inconsistencies are this obvious, something's wrong.

 

A round of applause for ImaginaryMatter

 

Sweet Jesus

 

 

Mate use your brain, if the Reapers had done any of that then a "Game Over" message would have come up on the screen. This isn't some revelation, Bioware knew this, they had written themselves into a corner with the whole "Reapers take the Citadel and thereby win the war" thing established in Mass Effect 1. They had to be nerf them so that they could write a story about this cycle winning, but in the process, created a major inconsistency. 

 

A hell of a lot of contrivances needed to take place in Mass Effect 3 for the cycle to beat the Reapers, in reality, they would have been annihilated easily. But hey, this cycle is special and Shepard is special LOL!

[emaughan]

in the end they did launch troops and corpses to be processed up to the citadel 

[2girls1reaper]

@JasonShepard. I'd like to hear your theory, even if it's crazy.

@Daemul: The thing is, they didn't write themselves into a corner. Bioware had an entire galaxy as their playground, there could have been other alternatives. If the citadel had been taken right away by the reapers (which most people here are agreeing makes sense) then the hub of civilization and center for refugees would probably end up being a garden world that hadn't previously been settled.

[Display Name Owner]

My imaginary reason is that eliminating galactic civilisation's leadership would make the organics less predictable. If they keep the Council leaders where they are and thinking they're safe, it's easier to foresee their actions, and as long as the Citadel's untouched the races think they have a chance and it's a  matter of defence, whereas if the Citadel's lost they might just go "to hell with it" and go crazy with Guerilla warfare and whatnot and the Reapers want them alive to harvest. 

 

Of course that's completely blown out the window by the fact that the Citadel can be used by the Reapers to control the relay network so taking it is really the easiest way to win the war. Also, they moved the Citadel to Earth like it was nothing so I doubt taking it was ever an impossible task. Also they opened a portal from the ground to the interior of the Citadel so sending agents inside would have been easy...

 

...

[KaiserShep]

For once Iakus is right.

 

Oh my gods. This is the beginning of the end, isn't it?

[JasonShepard]

@JasonShepard. I'd like to hear your theory, even if it's crazy.

 

Okay then

 

First up: a Disclaimer. This is merely a fanon theory, and if anyone does decide to pick holes in it, I reserve the right to not waste my time improving it. (Sorry, I've gotten trapped in that particular cycle far too many times. And yes, I'm sure holes can be picked.)

 

So. TIM conveniently taking the Citadel for the Reapers, just when the plot needed the Reapers to take it.

 

Questions to answer: Why couldn't the Reapers take it sooner, and why could they take it at just that moment?

 

The Theory:

 

TIM was not fully indoctrinated until very late in the game. The attack on Cerberus headquarters is what finally pushed him over the limit to openly working with the Reapers. In his mind, I imagine that he was so desperate for Control that he was willing to do anything to delay the Alliance from using the Crucible. (In this sense, he actually came fairly close to success, considering he was in place to use the Crucible at the very end of the game. Unfortunately, the Reaper nanites in his system probably would have prevented him from even opening the Citadel.) The indoctrination in his mind meant that he was blind to the fact that Destroy was still preferable to extinction, and to the fact that the Reapers had basically turned him into a thrall.

 

However, the Reaper nanites had granted him some pretty sweet abilities. He demonstrates on Anderson and Shepard an ability similar, but not identical, to Leviathan Domination. Notice how their minds are unaffected, but he seems to have gained full control over their motor functions. I imagine this came in fairly useful when taking the Citadel.

 

So, why could the Reapers take the Citadel at that moment?

Because TIM was finally desperate enough, and indoctrinated enough, to give it to them.

 

How did Cerberus take the Citadel?

Probably the same way Saren did - smuggle TIM in, use domination super-powers to carve a path to Citadel Control, make sure the arms don't close when the Reapers arrive, close the arms on a couple of Sovereign class Reapers, and let them pilot the closed, impenetrable Citadel to Earth.

 

Why couldn't they do it sooner?

Because TIM wasn't willing to fully work with them, and because the Citadel would close up the moment they arrived. They were probably grooming various indoctrinated agents for an eventual "take the Citadel" plan, TIM was just the first that became available (or the first to succeed). Had the mid-game Citadel Coup been successful, I imagine the Citadel would have been in Reaper hands (tentacles?) before Rannoch arc had a chance to even get started.

 

The Reapers probably would have been able to take the Citadel in a full frontal assault, but they would have lost ships, and I suspect that they are at least trying to minimise casualties. (Even if some losses - see Palaven - are inevitable.)

 

And finally, a freebie:

Why wasn't the Relay Network locked down once they took the Citadel?

I'm guessing that the Relay Network was locked down, but the Normandy's IFF allowed the allied fleets to ignore it. (IFFs can be duplicated, as demonstrated by Cerberus having access to the Omega Relay after ME2.)

There's a bonus to this explanation: The Reapers have relatively less of a motive for taking the Citadel during the main game, since they know that its main advantage - locking down the relays - can be negated by the Normandy's IFF. With that in mind, the Citadel is little more than a glorified refugee camp. Of course, this all changes when they find out that the Crucible is basically finished, and can be used with the Citadel to defeat them...

[Reorte]

For once Iakus is right.

Oh my gods. This is the beginning of the end, isn't it?

It certainly throws out a lot of my complaints about various ME3 plot elements being wildly implausible - here we see something even more unlikely.

[Daemul]

@Daemul: The thing is, they didn't write themselves into a corner. Bioware had an entire galaxy as their playground, there could have been other alternatives. If the citadel had been taken right away by the reapers (which most people here are agreeing makes sense) then the hub of civilization and center for refugees would probably end up being a garden world that hadn't previously been settled.

 

A garden world which the Reapers would have easily found due the the large volume of traffic that would be heading there. Not to mention, how would people even know about this garden world with the relays turned off and all communication with others severed? Who would even organise the entire process anyway, with all the important people on the Citadel killed in the initial attack by the Reapers?

 

One does not just settle on a Garden World, it takes time to prepare liveable area's and to gather resources such as food to feed a large number of people. How are you going to get all these resources with the war going on? Not to mention the planet may not be inhabitable for certain species, so you would essentially be abandoning people to die. 

 

You'd honestly be better served hiding in a ship out in the middle of space, you'd last longer that way. 

[von uber]

I wish there was at least one dialogue option to liara's comment (about how easily a single ship could get lost up there) of "you know what? **** it, you're right - let's go".

[2girls1reaper]

You'd honestly be better served hiding in a ship out in the middle of space, you'd last longer that way.

Maybe that's it afterall. The only thing I can come up with is people fleeing to the Migrant Fleet and begging the quarians to help them

[ImaginaryMatter]

You'd honestly be better served hiding in a ship out in the middle of space, you'd last longer that way. 

 

I don't think any such ship would be self sustaining. Even the Quarian migrant fleet who are the go to professionals for that sort of thing would only last a few weeks.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

This Point doesn't really hold up when you take into account that the reapers do actually lose ships in normal combat, it is mentioned that during the inital attack on palaven the Reapers lost several captial ships.

So why add a suicide run to the Citadel on top of normal combat losses when expendable indoctrinated thralls can do the same work?

 

In addtion, the firepower of 3-4 dreadnoughts is enough to down a reaper capital ship and a Reaper destroyer can be wrecked by just a single cruiser.

As if the Reapers just sit there while you shoot them. 3-4 dreadnoughts will not take down a Reaper Sovereign if they've got Oculi and Reaper Destroyers intercepting them, just like the Destiny Ascension was kept at bay during the Battle of the Citadel by geth fighters.

 

If the goal was to protect exterminated "civilisations" (which is nothing more than liquid components) than there is no logic in puting said civilisation in harm's way to begin with.

In a normal cycle, the Reapers pour through the galaxy in full force and overtake every planet before anybody realizes what's going on. With the Citadel closed and under their control, space travel via mass-relays is completely shut down. It's a perfect trap, and most likely results in 0 Reaper casualties altogether.

The Protheans simply threw a wrench in the system by rewriting the Keepers.
 

Futhermore, it would be highly improbably and extremly contrived that one person  would be able to sabotage the Citadel defences in such a manner that the Reapers can take it without having to fight the Citadel's defences forces.

The same Citadel defenses that Thane stated is too flawed to stop any skilled saboteur?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Also, if TIM was able to sneak in why couldn't they use a similar plan much earlier before the security became much stricter? Does any one else find it a little too coincidental that the Reaper plan to take the Citadel only fell into place or finally worked almost immediately after they found out about the Crucible? Couldn't they rush in when Cerberus initiated the coup? Couldn't they use a similar plan as Cerberus? Couldn't they bum rush the place super fast (before Earth) and catch everyone by surprise?

 

How many people get indoctrinated before the Reapers arrive in the galaxy? It's a rarity.

[ImaginaryMatter]

How many people get indoctrinated before the Reapers arrive in the galaxy? It's a rarity.

 

There was quite a bit of time between the Reaper invasion and the Cerberus coup, if all a saboteur had to do was get into the Reaper tunnels (I assume the Reapers tell their minions how, like TIM) it seems relatively easy to do so; the Cerberus coup would have been the perfect time given all the chaos.

 

Also apparently quite a few people got Indoctrinated pre-invasion including: Cerberus personnel including TIM, Alliance personnel, Batarians, Turians, and those cult machinist things also seem to Indoctrinate people; if I start reading the comics I might find even more.

[ImaginaryMatter]

@Daemul: The thing is, they didn't write themselves into a corner. Bioware had an entire galaxy as their playground, there could have been other alternatives. If the citadel had been taken right away by the reapers (which most people here are agreeing makes sense) then the hub of civilization and center for refugees would probably end up being a garden world that hadn't previously been settled.

 

I always thought a virus that disrupts the communication between Relays (or at least the primary sets) would have been a pretty nifty way to slow down the Reapers. All the source of such a virus would be the troublesome part.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Catalyst: I control the reapers. They are my solution.

 

And as we see in the Control ending, Shepardlyst has absolute control. Hence, the Catalyst has absolute control.

 

It didn't order the Reapers to take control of the Citadel in the beginning and shut down the mass relay system. You know, the way that worked every single time?

 

And we've heard Starbrat's logic in the ending, right?

 

What is the conclusion?

 

Starbrat is an idiot.

 

Or perhaps this "free of all weakness" was a bunch of crap.

 

This time the organics are taking charge!

[ImaginaryMatter]

Catalyst: I control the reapers. They are my solution.

 

And as we see in the Control ending, Shepardlyst has absolute control. Hence, the Catalyst has absolute control.

 

It didn't order the Reapers to take control of the Citadel in the beginning and shut down the mass relay system. You know, the way that worked every single time?

 

And we've heard Starbrat's logic in the ending, right?

 

What is the conclusion?

 

Starbrat is an idiot.

 

Or perhaps this "free of all weakness" was a bunch of crap.

 

This time the organics are taking charge!

 

I'm telling you, the Catalyst is just a VI with a superiority complex.

[Iakus]

 Because the Citadel is the heart of galactic civilization, with nearly all species having an interest in protecting it. Trying to take it by force would result in many Reaper ship casualties, which equate to the loss of entire civilizations, whereas indoctrinated agents (like TIM, who is the reason they got it back just before Priority: Earth) are expendable and can be thrown at it endlessly until one of them finally breaks through.

 

Can't think about it from a pure military perspective. Reapers must keep their ships safe at all costs.

 

If the Reapers really have been kicking around for a billion years or more, there are tens of thousands of Sovereign class Reapers alone.

 

Two dozen Reapers working together destroyed Arcturus Station and Second Fleet in addition to forcing the retreat of First and Third Fleet.

 

Send a few hundred and any fleet guarding the Citadel wouldn't even be a speed bump.