228 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

So why add a suicide run to the Citadel on top of normal combat losses when expendable indoctrinated thralls can do the same work?

 

Actually, I would say that spreading out and attacking the galaxy on every possible front while leaving the center of galactic civilization largely intact for most of the war presents a far greater risk. As it stands, the reapers lost a number of ships attacking the asari and the turians, when they could have avoided them altogether and simply bumrushed the Citadel and wipe out everything inside, then turn off the relays. While the protheans cut the keepers off from the signal that makes them open the relay, we don't know if this applies to the Citadel's central ability to control the entire relay network. In any case, it's clear that a reaper can jack in with weird tentacles to undo the damage if they wanted. Sovereign would've succeeded too, had he not suddenly got drunk off of his own indoctrination and decided to apply the gossamer strings of reaper madness on Saren.

 

The thing about indoctrinated thralls is however expendable they are really depends on their specific role in their efforts to subdue the galaxy. Random people on Earth indoctrinated to serve as agents in refugee camps and hidden bunkers would be easier to replace as thralls, but a massive fighting force such as Cerberus wouldn't be. If they are destroyed, the reapers have no way to quickly replace them, especially since the only reason Cerberus ends up being their agent is because of TIM's stupidity and recklessness.

 

I like to just chalk this up to massive reaper hubris being their ultimate downfall.

[AlanC9]

Sovereign would've succeeded too, had he not suddenly got drunk off of his own indoctrination and decided to apply the gossamer strings of reaper madness on Saren.
 

A more charitable reading of the scene is that Sovereign realized his barriers weren't going to hold up long enough, so he was just trying to get the arms closed again.

[txgoldrush]

Why do the Reapers not attack the Citadel first in ME3 after the plan in ME1 failed?

 

Because The Citadel in this cycle is NOT the center of galactic civilization, that would be the capital worlds. The Citadel and its council are only a mediating force, a galactic UN.

 

The Reapers only destroy the Alliance Parliament and killed a huge number of Palaven's chain of command in the first months of the war..oh wait, that's pretty significant. Thessia falls, and Sur'Kesh is soon attacked before the Citadel is taken.

 

And really, if it wasn't for Shepard, the Reapers would have conquered this cycle MUCH FASTER than the Protheans. It took them centuries to defeat the Protheans. In months...the homeworlds of the Batarians, Humans, Turians (yes, they give it up), Asari, Elcor, Volus, Hanar (depending on the outcome of Kasumi's mission), and Vorcha have basically fallen...at the time of the battle for Earth, the Krogan and Salarian worlds are under attack and pretty much would fall in months. And the Quarian/Geth world will probably soon be attacked.

 

So the Citadel is low priority UNTIL the Reapers discover its part of the plan for the Crucible.

[Sundance31us]

Maybe they're not in a big hurry to return to dark space.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Also apparently quite a few people got Indoctrinated pre-invasion including: Cerberus personnel including TIM, Alliance personnel, Batarians, Turians, and those cult machinist things also seem to Indoctrinate people; if I start reading the comics I might find even more.

 

That's really not much at all, with just about all of these examples being out in remote, isolated areas of the galaxy.

 

Also, TIM being indoc'd pre-invasion is false and an interpretation I've thoroughly debunked. Cerberus was in fact set up to fight the Reapers (manifesto alludes to an alien threat TIM saw in Arrival-like visions) and many of their cells were tasked with research and study to fight them.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

If the Reapers really have been kicking around for a billion years or more, there are tens of thousands of Sovereign class Reapers alone.

 

Two dozen Reapers working together destroyed Arcturus Station and Second Fleet in addition to forcing the retreat of First and Third Fleet.

 

Send a few hundred and any fleet guarding the Citadel wouldn't even be a speed bump.  

 

Unlike Arcturus Station, the Citadel can fold up into a defensive cocoon, and too valuable to the Reapers themselves for them to destroy it. Without their backdoor trap or the Alpha Relay, this cycle is able to track the Reapers' movements through the galaxy and predict where they go before they get there. If they attempted to advance onto the Citadel, it would be preemptively shut with defense forces sitting in wait, possibly even spurring all major species to unite given the urgency of the threat.

[themikefest]

Unlike Arcturus Station, the Citadel can fold up into a defensive cocoon, and too valuable to the Reapers themselves for them to destroy it. Without their backdoor trap or the Alpha Relay, this cycle is able to track the Reapers' movements through the galaxy and predict where they go before they get there. If they attempted to advance onto the Citadel, it would be preemptively shut with defense forces sitting in wait, possibly even spurring all major species to unite given the urgency of the threat.

Had the reapers went to the Citadel first, they would have control  making the tracking and predicting meaningless.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Unlike Arcturus Station, the Citadel can fold up into a defensive cocoon, and too valuable to the Reapers themselves for them to destroy it. Without their backdoor trap or the Alpha Relay, this cycle is able to track the Reapers' movements through the galaxy and predict where they go before they get there. If they attempted to advance onto the Citadel, it would be preemptively shut with defense forces sitting in wait, possibly even spurring all major species to unite given the urgency of the threat.

 

The tracking plan didn't seem to be in place for the Alliance and Earth. Also, if the Reapers attacked every home world at once would the Council homeworlds really be keen to lend a hand to reinforce the Citadel? If they bum rushed the Citadel instead of Earth would the organics be able to react fast enough? Cerberus managed to attack the station and cut off communication, surely the Reapers (who probably have that Collector jamming technology) could do the same thing. Even if they do close the Wards the Reapers would at least hold a vital system.

 

All of this also ignores the fact that there is a control panel for the Wards in a place that no one except for Reaper minions can get to. Was there something super special about TIM to make him the only person to sneak down there? Couldn't any dime-a-dozen organic do the same thing even if they did need Reaper implants? Couldn't they utilize a plan simliar to the Cerberus coup or at least take advantage of the Wards that were stuck open? As I said before, did the Reaper's plan to take the station only work almost immediately after the Reapers found out about the Crucible?

[Iakus]

Unlike Arcturus Station, the Citadel can fold up into a defensive cocoon, and too valuable to the Reapers themselves for them to destroy it. Without their backdoor trap or the Alpha Relay, this cycle is able to track the Reapers' movements through the galaxy and predict where they go before they get there. If they attempted to advance onto the Citadel, it would be preemptively shut with defense forces sitting in wait, possibly even spurring all major species to unite given the urgency of the threat.

I always found it odd that the Citadel "cocoon" only covered one direction.

 

The Presidium ring's butt is still hanging in the breeze on the far side of the Ward arms

[JasonShepard]

I always found it odd that the Citadel "cocoon" only covered one direction.

 

The Presidium ring's butt is still hanging in the breeze on the far side of the Ward arms

 

Watch the cinematics at the end of ME3 again: (or take my word for it, your choice )

 

When closing, the bottom of the wards extend out shorter triangular pieces which combine to cover the Presidium ring 'hole'.

[Steelcan]

cause that armor around it?  made entirely of plot

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The tracking plan didn't seem to be in place for the Alliance and Earth.

There was.   

(Opening cutscene) Hackett: "There's something massive on long-range scanners."

Anderson: "How long do we have?"

Hackett: "Not long. I've sent word. The fleets are mobilizing."

 

Anderson: "Something big's headed our way."

Shepard: "The Reapers?"

Anderson: "We don't know, not for certain."

Shepard: "What else could it be??"

Tevos: "(...) while the Reapers focus on Earth, we can prepare and regroup."

 

Also, if the Reapers attacked every home world at once would the Council homeworlds really be keen to lend a hand to reinforce the Citadel? If they bum rushed the Citadel instead of Earth would the organics be able to react fast enough?

Do you understand how relays work? The Reapers cannot "bum rush" the Citadel. There's a limited # of ships that can pour through a relay into a system at any given time, and only few are actually connected to that system (most only go two ways). The Alpha Relay was the one exception, and it got destroyed by our side (one way or another).

One can point out the arrival of Shepard's fleet on Earth for the final battle, but it says more about the accuracy of that cutscene than the Reapers' decision to avoid the Citadel.
 

Cerberus managed to attack the station and cut off communication, surely the Reapers (who probably have that Collector jamming technology) could do the same thing.

 

An attack which, per Shep, likely crippled their manpower and resources. The Reapers may be better supplied than Cerberus, but any battle for the Citadel will be costly, even to them. Which brings me to my next point...
 

Even if they do close the Wards the Reapers would at least hold a vital system.

 

It's not about the war or strategy to Reapers. It's about harvesting, and the cost-to-benefit ratio. One Reaper is an entire civilization's cultural knowledge and memory. If it dies, it's gone forever. Using them is necessary to carry out the cycle, but apart from that, they must be protected at all costs. You can't replace what's been lost with one.

That's why the Reapers, for all their arrogance/hubris, still have their Citadel backdoor-trap in place to finish the wars before they even begin. In a normal cycle, it's likely that they lose not a single ship, save for maybe a couple flukes here and there.

That's why taking the Citadel can wait for a bit while lowly thralls are tasked with it instead. Couple that with the fact that the Citadel can be shut off from outsiders

 

All of this also ignores the fact that there is a control panel for the Wards in a place that no one except for Reaper minions can get to. Was there something super special about TIM to make him the only person to sneak down there? Couldn't any dime-a-dozen organic do the same thing even if they did need Reaper implants?

 

What the blazes are you talking about? Unless you subscribe to IT, which brings about another set of holes into your argument altogether, the entrance of Anderson and Shepard into the same location debunks the idea that there's any such "Reaper-only territory" on the Citadel.

 

TIM broke through security to the Citadel control-panel because he was powerful (with the Reaper upgrades he had implanted), powerful enough to even kill Shepard and Anderson in a scripted scene (something that very few other characters in the story can boast)!

[ImaginaryMatter]

There was.   

(Opening cutscene) Hackett: "There's something massive on long-range scanners."

Anderson: "How long do we have?"

Hackett: "Not long. I've sent word. The fleets are mobilizing."

 

Anderson: "Something big's headed our way."

Shepard: "The Reapers?"

Anderson: "We don't know, not for certain."

Shepard: "What else could it be??"

Tevos: "(...) while the Reapers focus on Earth, we can prepare and regroup."

 

Do you understand how relays work? The Reapers cannot "bum rush" the Citadel. There's a limited # of ships that can pour through a relay into a system at any given time, and only few are actually connected to that system (most only go two ways). The Alpha Relay was the one exception, and it got destroyed by our side (one way or another).

One can point out the arrival of Shepard's fleet on Earth for the final battle, but it says more about the accuracy of that cutscene than the Reapers' decision to avoid the Citadel.
 

 

An attack which, per Shep, likely crippled their manpower and resources. The Reapers may be better supplied than Cerberus, but any battle for the Citadel will be costly, even to them. Which brings me to my next point...
 

 

It's not about the war or strategy to Reapers. It's about harvesting, and the cost-to-benefit ratio. One Reaper is an entire civilization's cultural knowledge and memory. If it dies, it's gone forever. Using them is necessary to carry out the cycle, but apart from that, they must be protected at all costs. You can't replace what's been lost with one.

That's why the Reapers, for all their arrogance/hubris, still have their Citadel backdoor-trap in place to finish the wars before they even begin. In a normal cycle, it's likely that they lose not a single ship, save for maybe a couple flukes here and there.

That's why taking the Citadel can wait for a bit while lowly thralls are tasked with it instead. Couple that with the fact that the Citadel can be shut off from outsiders

 

 

What the blazes are you talking about? Unless you subscribe to IT, which brings about another set of holes into your argument altogether, the entrance of Anderson and Shepard into the same location debunks the idea that there's any such "Reaper-only territory" on the Citadel.

 

TIM broke through security to the Citadel control-panel because he was powerful (with the Reaper upgrades he had implanted), powerful enough to even kill Shepard and Anderson in a scripted scene (something that very few other characters in the story can boast)!

 

First, if the preservation of the slushy mix was really so vital you think the last thing they would do it put it on board every single large ship (I also recall the Fall of Thessia Codex entry say something about Reaper acceptable losses). How is it necessary to use a slushy filled Reaper instead of just a normal ship loaded up with weapons? That seems like what the Catalyst did initially. At the very least you think they would have non-slushy war ships to serve along side the slushy ones to take on risky operations. They have support ships without the slushy mix, why not armed ones? Also, were the conventional tactics used in this cycle (and apparently the Prothean one too) so rare that they rarely lost Capital ships? Most of them didn't even require the massive use of foresight.

 

As for rushing the Citadel, the Relay cap doesn't seem to exist at all in ME3, this same problem also comes up in the Rannoch arc. Plus the Reapers are the creators of the Relay network, presumably they have some work around; it's probably how they got something as massive as the Citadel (much greater than the mass of several hundreds of Reaper ships) through to Earth so fast. As for warning the Codex talks about minutes. Enough time to close the Wards, sure, but not to organize a defense greater than something like a homeworld. Also, given how effective a fleet like the Geth was able to sneak in and take out parts of the Citadel Defense Fleet imagine what the Reapers could do.

 

When I was talking about the Reaper controlled area I was talking about the panels location in the Keeper tunnels, a part of the station no organic in the cycle had ever reached before. Shepard and Anderson entered in through the processing beam, although TIM probably had to find another way in. Maybe, Cerberus once again is so good at everything they were the only ones to figure a way in but I think the more likely explanation is that the designers of the Citadel told their minions what to do. Since the tunnel would have nothing but Keepers in it once someone got in, it would seem like a pretty easy job just to mozzy up to the control panel. I also doubt Reaper implants are powerful enough to enable one guy to take on a bulky defense force, it doesn't allow TIM to take a single bullet particularly well. Also, no Reaper soldier has ever been close to that strong.

 

Again, was there something super special about TIM? Couldn't they use any other Indoctrinated refugee loaded with a few implants to sneak down there? Did their plan to easily capture the Citadel only fall into place once they found out about the Crucible? Couldn't they attack during the Cerberus coup when the Wards were stuck open? Is Cerberus so strong of fleet that it's any where near comparable to the size and strength of the Reaper forces?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

First, if the preservation of the slushy mix was really so vital you think the last thing they would do it put it on board every single large ship (I also recall the Fall of Thessia Codex entry say something about Reaper acceptable losses). How is it necessary to use a slushy filled Reaper instead of just a normal ship loaded up with weapons? That seems like what the Catalyst did initially.

Losses were not a concern before Shepard's cycle. They set up the system such that the resistance was squashed before it could even respond. Come Shepard's time, though, they had no other choice.

Normal ships filled with weapons also don't Indoctrinate, which is a major advantage the Reapers have over others.

 

As for rushing the Citadel, the Relay cap doesn't seem to exist at all in ME3, this same problem also comes up in the Rannoch arc.

Which is a problem with other parts of the game, not the Reapers' decision not to take the Citadel.

 

Plus the Reapers are the creators of the Relay network, presumably they have some work around; it's probably how they got something as massive as the Citadel (much greater than the mass of several hundreds of Reaper ships) through to Earth so fast.

Their work-around was the Keepers, which they lost. Apart from that, no, there's no reason to presume they have infinite backup plans.

 

When I was talking about the Reaper controlled area I was talking about the panels location in the Keeper tunnels, a part of the station no organic in the cycle had ever reached before. Shepard and Anderson entered in through the processing beam, although TIM probably had to find another way in. Maybe, Cerberus once again is so good at everything they were the only ones to figure a way in but I think the more likely explanation is that the designers of the Citadel told their minions what to do. Since the tunnel would have nothing but Keepers in it once someone got in, it would seem like a pretty easy job just to mozzy up to the control panel. I also doubt Reaper implants are powerful enough to enable one guy to take on a bulky defense force, it doesn't allow TIM to take a single bullet particularly well. Also, no Reaper soldier has ever been close to that strong.

Are you arguing against yourself now? You were saying the Reapers should have just sent someone through their supposed "Reaper-only" territory on the Citadel (which I still think is not an actual thing), and now you're saying that no Reaper pawn should be able to get through security.

But yes, TIM's implants really were powerful, enough that he could have killed the galaxy's best soldier and another very accomplished one had he not decided to use that time to try to talk Shepard into the Control solution.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

At the very least you think they would have non-slushy war ships to serve along side the slushy ones to take on risky operations.

At the very least you think they would have non-slushy war ships

war ships

Say it with me, Imaginary: "There is no war, only the harvest!!"

[Iakus]

A harvest that involves a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten fired at significant fractions of lightspeed...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Why do the Reapers not attack the Citadel first in ME3 after the plan in ME1 failed?

 

Because The Citadel in this cycle is NOT the center of galactic civilization, that would be the capital worlds. The Citadel and its council are only a mediating force, a galactic UN.

 

The Reapers only destroy the Alliance Parliament and killed a huge number of Palaven's chain of command in the first months of the war..oh wait, that's pretty significant. Thessia falls, and Sur'Kesh is soon attacked before the Citadel is taken.

 

And really, if it wasn't for Shepard, the Reapers would have conquered this cycle MUCH FASTER than the Protheans. It took them centuries to defeat the Protheans. In months...the homeworlds of the Batarians, Humans, Turians (yes, they give it up), Asari, Elcor, Volus, Hanar (depending on the outcome of Kasumi's mission), and Vorcha have basically fallen...at the time of the battle for Earth, the Krogan and Salarian worlds are under attack and pretty much would fall in months. And the Quarian/Geth world will probably soon be attacked.

 

So the Citadel is low priority UNTIL the Reapers discover its part of the plan for the Crucible.

 

 

Nah, the Citadel would have made their existence easier. They could have shut off the mass relays and gone system by system and harvested and wiped out like the old days.

 

The reality is that it wouldn't have been much of a game if they did it that way. It would have been: the reapers just blew through the Arcturus relay and destroyed our fleet! We need to get to the Citadel. Oh crap! Our relays are locked except for Reaper IFFs and the only ship that has one is the Normandy. Everyone else has to use standard FTL to travel around because of "ah yes 'reapers'" so that means we're f***ed. But Shepard (Marvel Superhero) and the Normandy (Marvel Superhero's ship) can save us!

[Iakus]

Nah, the Citadel would have made their existence easier. They could have shut off the mass relays and gone system by system and harvested and wiped out like the old days.

 

The reality is that it wouldn't have been much of a game if they did it that way. It would have been: the reapers just blew through the Arcturus relay and destroyed our fleet! We need to get to the Citadel. Oh crap! Our relays are locked except for Reaper IFFs and the only ship that has one is the Normandy. Everyone else has to use standard FTL to travel around because of "ah yes 'reapers'" so that means we're f***ed. But Shepard (Marvel Superhero) and the Normandy (Marvel Superhero's ship) can save us!

Chris Pratt as Commander Shepard and Zoe Saldana as Liara in Mass Effect movie confirmed! 

[Arcian]

 

Say it with me, Imaginary: "There is no war, only the harvest!!"

 

They Leviathans may refuse to call it a war, but it's still a war by definition.

[CroGamer002]

Because Reaper entire war strategy is utterly dumb and nonsensical.

[dreamgazer]

Nah, the Citadel would have made their existence easier. They could have shut off the mass relays and gone system by system and harvested and wiped out like the old days.

 
These aren't the old days, though, since it wouldn't be a sneak attack on the Citadel and such a full-frontal assault would effectively "announce" their arrival to the entire galaxy before the relays were flipped off. "Shepard was right: the Reapers are real, and have arrived. Citadel under attack, likely to fall. Download all accessible information (on Sovereign, the Collectors, Project Rho and the Alpha Relay) and prepare for hell".
 
Without the relays active, it would take an immense amount of time to get between systems, allowing each one a grace period to prepare with the knowledge that there are no alternatives and a very real threat on its way. While none of them would likely be successful, even with years or decades to get ready, this would significantly deplete the Reapers numbers and make this a far more taxing harvest for all involved ... and would also lead to Maker knows what kinds of suicidal repercussions, too.  
 
Preserving the false sense of security on the Citadel (even after the indoctrinated servant Cerberus coup attempt) and allowing the relays to remain open for their expedited travel ended up helping the Reapers and their overall agenda in several ways, since it still afforded them some element of surprise and since they believed the Crucible wasn't a problem in this cycle.  
 
At the very least, there are benefits and hindrances to either scenario, enough to lean toward this one so the trilogy could end with a game that closes out the Reaper threat.

[ImaginaryMatter]

 

Say it with me, Imaginary: "There is no war, only the harvest!!"

 

 

Fine, non-slushy, armed harvester ships. I don't know what you mean by only Reapers can Indoctrinate, as we've seen a handful of simple Reaper artifacts Indoctrinate; if these artifacts can Indoctrinate why can't the harvester ships do the same thing? Even if they couldn't, the role they would be serving is to take down resistance, which surely must have happened in almost every cycle. Look at the tactics the Organics employed that resulted in the destruction of not only Reaper ships but Capital ones as well, they are conventional tactics. Look at how well the Protheans fought off the Reapers, according to Javik. They even got some of their technological advancement from past cycles so it's not like they were unique technology wise.

 

 

Are you arguing against yourself now? You were saying the Reapers should have just sent someone through their supposed "Reaper-only" territory on the Citadel (which I still think is not an actual thing), and now you're saying that no Reaper pawn should be able to get through security.

But yes, TIM's implants really were powerful, enough that he could have killed the galaxy's best soldier and another very accomplished one had he not decided to use that time to try to talk Shepard into the Control solution.

 

The control panel is in the Keeper tunnels, a place no Council organic has figured how to get into for the thousand or so years they've been on the Citadel. Presumably, the Citadel was designed this way and the designers (aka the Reapers or anyone they tell) are probably the only ones to know how to get in there. There's probably no organic security in the Keeper tunnels considering they don't know how to access the area (Cerberus was able to even escape into them), so once an Indoctrinated individual is inside there would probably be very little in terms of resistance to get to the Control panel and keep the Wards open for a Reaper attack.

 

As for TIM I was simply doubting the strength of the implants when facing off against security forces. Yes he could have killed Shepard, an Avenger AR could have killed Shepard; so what? It only took a single bullet to stop TIM, if he did take on Citadel security would he be mind controlling everyone so no one could shoot at him? What if there was a shooter he didn't notice? Why don't the Reapers install these super implants on some more minions if they're so effective?

[themikefest]

Had the reapers taken control of the Citadel, they would shut off the relays making it almost impossible to get the Crucible to where it needs to be. Had the relays been used during the Prothean cycle, like ours, its possible they may of succeeded in using the Crucible.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

They Leviathans may refuse to call it a war, but it's still a war by definition.

 

It may be, I'm not actually trying to argue that it isn't, but what that quote really says is that the Reapers/Catalyst (and their creators) do not see the conflict as some sort of war to be won. To them, it's a job to be done, and done the right way. To us, it's all about "winning," so how the Reapers operate does not make sense to those of us who see the conflict as a war.

[Vortex13]

Reapers must keep their ships safe at all costs.

 

 

And they seem to be doing a fine job at that, what with them charging in a straight line, directly into enemy fire and all.

 

Seriously, look at the cut scenes of the the invasion of Palaven, and the Battle over Earth, the Sovereign class Reapers make absolutely no attempt to avoid enemy fire. Even with their advanced technology, you would think that an ancient race of machines designed with the sole purpose of 'preserving' life would be more careful with their 'containers'.