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[Iakus]

We know that the council races destroy more then 1 sovereign and 5 destroyers during the war, many more in fact, and the protheans were even more advanced and militant and were already in a war and mobilized when the reapers invaded them, surely they to destroyed more ships then the reapers built to replace them.  There are likely more cycles then not that don't offer substantial resistance but then there are those organics that fight back with some success out of 20,000 wars and that is going to thin there numbers. 

 

And there is evidence to support them having a much smaller fleet.  They aren't going to leave any ships in dark space so we know they all attacked the batarians, a race that was weaker then humans 10-20 years after they started to build up the fleet and before they joined the council.  After that they split to launch 2 offensive attacks on Earth and Palaven.  They roll over Earth but aren't able to destroy the entire defending fleet before it pulls back and they get stuck in a stalemate at Palaven where they are unable to destroy the Turian fleet even after weeks/months of fighting.  Once they have secured Earth they move on the attack Thessia and once again get bogged down fighting the most populace and richest power in galaxy and don't launch another major attack until the citadel is revealed to be the catalyst.  Sure, they have small forces attacking small colonies of a million or so inhabits without any real space defense but the bulk of there fleet is tied down in 2 systems, that is not a 20,000+ strong fleet.

 

This cycle had the ability to use the relays.  They have the option to reinforce or retreat.  The Protheans were stuck with whatever they had in ftl range of each other. 

 

If the relay was shut down:

Hackett would have lost all three fleets, and probably would have died himself.

Palaven would have stood alone against the full might of the Reapers, with no reinforcements, even from their colonies.

No assault could have been organized to retake Earth.

The asari tactic of feinting and quick strikes would have been of limited use, since no relays=limited maneuverability.

 

With the relays shut down, the entire galaxy would have gone the way of the batarians:  No aid.  No one to help them.  No communication.

 

Edit:  And the numbers of the Reapers show that they are totally imcompetant since they either 1) Let the species they are trying to "preserve" die in battle as fast as they are making them or 2) They are obviously not utilizing their superior numbers as well as they should, since every race should be neck-deep in Reapers pretty much from the start.

[bunch1]

This cycle had the ability to use the relays.  They have the option to reinforce or retreat.  The Protheans were stuck with whatever they had in ftl range of each other. 

 

Edit:  And the numbers of the Reapers show that they are totally imcompetant since they either 1) Let the species they are trying to "preserve" die in battle as fast as they are making them or 2) They are obviously not utilizing their superior numbers as well as they should, since every race should be neck-deep in Reapers pretty much from the start.

That is my point.  This is a new war for the reapers and they are being cautious.  Attacking the citadel at the start of the war would likely have led to massed reinforcement just like when soverign and the geth attacked and a human fleet, not even a council race, jumped in to fight the moment the relay was opened back up, and if I remember right it was the only one Shepard open back up otherwise I'm sure other council fleets would have joined the battle.  It's not that they would loose the battle, but how many ships would they lose to win it.   Without an inside force to hold open the arms like Saren and geth who went through the conduit they wouldn't be able to get inside and shut down the relays manually, thus they need to allow indoctrinated refuges to reach the citadel to help them take control.  The battle of Earth and Palaven proves that when enough organic ships get together the reapers can't kill them before they do damage and start to kill the reaper ships and it would take them hundreds of thousands of years to replace a couple dozen losses, so if they have to leave the citadel alone for a few months or years while they focus on key worlds while harassing others to keep the organics from unifying then that is something they are willing to do. 

[Iakus]

That is my point.  This is a new war for the reapers and they are being cautious.  Attacking the citadel at the start of the war would likely have led to massed reinforcement just like when soverign and the geth attacked and a human fleet, not even a council race, jumped in to fight the moment the relay was opened back up, and if I remember right it was the only one Shepard open back up otherwise I'm sure other council fleets would have joined the battle.  It's not that they would loose the battle, but how many ships would they lose to win it.   Without an inside force to hold open the arms like Saren and geth who went through the conduit they wouldn't be able to get inside and shut down the relays manually, thus they need to allow indoctrinated refuges to reach the citadel to help them take control.  The battle of Earth and Palaven proves that when enough organic ships get together the reapers can't kill them before they do damage and start to kill the reaper ships and it would take them hundreds of thousands of years to replace a couple dozen losses, so if they have to leave the citadel alone for a few months or years while they focus on key worlds while harassing others to keep the organics from unifying then that is something they are willing to do. 

 

Again 85 dreadnoughts vs 10,000+ Sovereigns.

a few hundreds or thousands of cruisers vs 50,000 Destroyers or more

 

besides which, once they do take teh Citadel and move it to Earth, wouldn't it be a good time then to shut it off?

[bunch1]

Again 85 dreadnoughts vs 10,000+ Sovereigns.

a few hundreds or thousands of cruisers vs 50,000 Destroyers or more

 

besides which, once they do take teh Citadel and move it to Earth, wouldn't it be a good time then to shut it off?

I do find it strange they didn't shut down the relays when they did finally take the citadel but that isn't what this thread is about.

 

And you have to remember 1 thing, the thanix cannon is reversed engineered reaper tech that can give a fighter or frigate, of which there are tens of thousands of in the organic fleets, the firepower of a cruiser and I'm sure the dreadnaughts, carriers, and cruisers were also equipped with them as well.  That weapon system, which they well may have been aware of, effectively multiplied the organic firepower exponentially.  No matter how strong a destroyer or sovereign kinetic barrier is it can still fail if stuck by enough fire power just like any other and 500 or a thousand cruiser class shots in a matter of seconds may well take them down.  Again, it's not a matter of them winning or losing the battle, but the cost they are willing to pay to achieve it when they have other options that don't involve fighting 10,000+ thanix equipped ships at once, as long as they engage them piecemeal they can destroy them quickly and repair any damage while facing so many they would likely loose some ships.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I do find it strange they didn't shut down the relays when they did finally take the citadel but that isn't what this thread is about.

 

And you have to remember 1 thing, the thanix cannon is reversed engineered reaper tech that can give a fighter or frigate, of which there are tens of thousands of in the organic fleets, the firepower of a cruiser and I'm sure the dreadnaughts, carriers, and cruisers were also equipped with them as well.  That weapon system, which they well may have been aware of, effectively multiplied the organic firepower exponentially.  No matter how strong a destroyer or sovereign kinetic barrier is it can still fail if stuck by enough fire power just like any other and 500 or a thousand cruiser class shots in a matter of seconds may well take them down.  Again, it's not a matter of them winning or losing the battle, but the cost they are willing to pay to achieve it when they have other options that don't involve fighting 10,000+ thanix equipped ships at once, as long as they engage them piecemeal they can destroy them quickly and repair any damage while facing so many they would likely loose some ships.

 

The thanix cannon is not a game-changer. Nor is every ship, or even most ships, equipped with them. It's very new technology.

 

This isn't something that's going to make the fight any easier for the allied fleets. At most, with what few thanix cannons you have, you might destroy a handful more smaller Reapers than the few that you are already going to take out. 

 

The battle over Earth is still the equivalent of an army of horse riders/light cavalry (vast majority of the allied fleets) and a few primitive tanks (the dreadnoughts) taking on a force of advanced Main Battle Tanks (all the larger Reapers) and Humvees with TOW missiles and .50's (the smaller Reapers).

 

All thanix cannons are (at most) is the equivalent of a few AT rocket launchers, which won't do more than knock out the drive system on the treads.

 

So instead of destroying maybe 20 Reapers, you might destroy 25. While you lose your entire fleet. Which is what happens if you refuse. Which completely undermines your argument.

[Iakus]

I do find it strange they didn't shut down the relays when they did finally take the citadel but that isn't what this thread is about.

 

And you have to remember 1 thing, the thanix cannon is reversed engineered reaper tech that can give a fighter or frigate, of which there are tens of thousands of in the organic fleets, the firepower of a cruiser and I'm sure the dreadnaughts, carriers, and cruisers were also equipped with them as well.  That weapon system, which they well may have been aware of, effectively multiplied the organic firepower exponentially.  No matter how strong a destroyer or sovereign kinetic barrier is it can still fail if stuck by enough fire power just like any other and 500 or a thousand cruiser class shots in a matter of seconds may well take them down.  Again, it's not a matter of them winning or losing the battle, but the cost they are willing to pay to achieve it when they have other options that don't involve fighting 10,000+ thanix equipped ships at once, as long as they engage them piecemeal they can destroy them quickly and repair any damage while facing so many they would likely loose some ships.

The thanix is a big step forward in anti-Reaper technology, true.  But against the sheer numbers the Reapers can field?  Nope.  Not by itself.

 

We're talking order of magnitude greater numbers, where even their smaller ships are essentially minidreadnoughts. 

[bunch1]

The thanix cannon is not a game-changer. Nor is every ship, or even most ships, equipped with them. It's very new technology.

 

This isn't something that's going to make the fight any easier for the allied fleets. At most, with what few thanix cannons you have, you might destroy a handful more smaller Reapers than the few that you are already going to take out. 

 

The battle over Earth is still the equivalent of an army of horse riders/light cavalry (vast majority of the allied fleets) and a few primitive tanks (the dreadnoughts) taking on a force of advanced Main Battle Tanks (all the larger Reapers) and Humvees with TOW missiles and .50's (the smaller Reapers).

 

All thanix cannons are (at most) is the equivalent of a few AT rocket launchers, which won't do more than knock out the drive system on the treads.

 

So instead of destroying maybe 20 Reapers, you might destroy 25. While you lose your entire fleet. Which is what happens if you refuse. Which completely undermines your argument.

 

 

The thanix is a big step forward in anti-Reaper technology, true.  But against the sheer numbers the Reapers can field?  Nope.  Not by itself.

 

We're talking order of magnitude greater numbers, where even their smaller ships are essentially minidreadnoughts. 

 

 

I'm not saying that it would win the organics the war, reaper intelligence on the number and use of the thanix is hared to guess so I'm not sure they would know how many they were, but that by attacking the citadel at the start of the war they would risk gathering the bulk of the entire organic fleet for one battle before it was worn down.  I'll say it again, it's not about them losing the battle, but how many ships they are willing to lose by facing the massed organic fleet in one climactic battle.  25 or 30 ships may not be a large number out of 10,000 or 20,000 but it could take 300,000 years or more to replace.  So by facing the organics in smaller battles if they minimize their chance of lose without endangering their odds of wining the war altogether then why would they take that chance when they are committed to 'preserving' lost organic civilizations where each ship lost is the lose of entire civilization?  They aren't in a rush since they aren't going to die of old age and if avoiding the citadel gives them a .0000000000000000000000000000001% better chance of winning with less loss then why wouldn't they?  Sure, the war may take an extra year or ten, but what do they care, there eternal.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I'm not saying that it would win the organics the war, reaper intelligence on the number and use of the thanix is hared to guess so I'm not sure they would know how many they were, but that by attacking the citadel at the start of the war they would risk gathering the bulk of the entire organic fleet for one battle before it was worn down.  I'll say it again, it's not about them losing the battle, but how many ships they are willing to lose by facing the massed organic fleet in one climactic battle.  25 or 30 ships may not be a large number out of 10,000 or 20,000 but it could take 300,000 years or more to replace.  So by facing the organics in smaller battles if they minimize their chance of lose without endangering their odds of wining the war altogether then why would they take that chance when they are committed to 'preserving' lost organic civilizations where each ship lost is the lose of entire civilization?  They aren't in a rush since they aren't going to die of old age and if avoiding the citadel gives them a .0000000000000000000000000000001% better chance of winning with less loss then why wouldn't they?  Sure, the war may take an extra year or ten, but what do they care, there eternal.

 

The Reapers, if they attacked the Citadel right off the bat en masse, would likely face fewer casualties than you seem to be implying. 

 

As I said with my analogy, the level of disparity between the Reapers and others is entire orders of magnitudes higher than the fleets of the galaxy. The losses wouldn't be any different than at Earth, and likely much less, because, by attacking the Citadel, they aren't giving the allied fleets time to build, prepare, and arm for war. It takes some time to get fleets up to ready alert. The Reapers attacking the Citadel en masse in the beginning would likely lead to far fewer casualties than they'd have ever taken, plus immediate control of the relays. Which would mean that there would be no way possible for any planets to communicate across the galaxy and coordinate information and strategy. 

 

The reason the Reapers didn't attack the Citadel is because the writers didn't want them too. It becomes hamfisted and poor writing, since it isn't handled (among a great many other things in the series) with a lot of skill. 

 

Also, your grammar is atrocious, as is your spelling. It makes my eyes bleed. Work on it.

[bunch1]

The Reapers, if they attacked the Citadel right off the bat en masse, would likely face fewer casualties than you seem to be implying. 

 

As I said with my analogy, the level of disparity between the Reapers and others is entire orders of magnitudes higher than the fleets of the galaxy. The losses wouldn't be any different than at Earth, and likely much less, because, by attacking the Citadel, they aren't giving the allied fleets time to build, prepare, and arm for war. It takes some time to get fleets up to ready alert. The Reapers attacking the Citadel en masse in the beginning would likely lead to far fewer casualties than they'd have ever taken, plus immediate control of the relays. Which would mean that there would be no way possible for any planets to communicate across the galaxy and coordinate information and strategy. 

 

The reason the Reapers didn't attack the Citadel is because the writers didn't want them too. It becomes hamfisted and poor writing, since it isn't handled (among a great many other things in the series) with a lot of skill. 

 

Also, your grammar is atrocious, as is your spelling. It makes my eyes bleed. Work on it.

I'm sorry to have offended you but I'm not paid to be an editor so I'm an amateur at grammar.

 

But my point remains, massed fire from inferior weapons can still down superior ones.  In universe think of the submachine gun whittling away the barriers of an enemy.  Singly they don't have the power of a sniper rife or assault rifle but by striking in rapid succession they are able to take down a shield and the same theory would apply to space combat and as we saw with sovereign the moment a reaper barrier fails a frigate's main gun can take them out. 

 

It's not about what we know from an outside perspective but what intel the reapers had when they were planning their invasion.  This whole thing is new to them and they have never had to fight the unified forces of organics before so they may have been overly cautious in their planning.

 

And I know it's what the writers decided, but they are also the ones who decided that despite building dreadnaughts for 2,000+ years the asari should only 20 while the humans had 8 after 30 years.  All the lore and facts of mass effect is decided by the writers so you can't just disregard something because you don't like it.  All we are doing here is trying to come up with a in universe reason as to why they avoided the citadel and if you have a better option then I would be glad to hear it and debate it with you.  But don't just say the writers, because cannon say they had a damn good reason to avoid the citidel and we shouldn't worry about it.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I'm sorry to have offended you but I'm not paid to be an editor so I'm an amateur at grammar.

 

But my point remains, massed fire from inferior weapons can still down superior ones.  In universe think of the submachine gun whittling away the barriers of an enemy.  Singly they don't have the power of a sniper rife or assault rifle but by striking in rapid succession they are able to take down a shield and the same theory would apply to space combat and as we saw with sovereign the moment a reaper barrier fails a frigate's main gun can take them out. 

 

It's not about what we know from an outside perspective but what intel the reapers had when they were planning their invasion.  This whole thing is new to them and they have never had to fight the unified forces of organics before so they may have been overly cautious in their planning.

 

And I know it's what the writers decided, but they are also the ones who decided that despite building dreadnaughts for 2,000+ years the asari should only 20 while the humans had 8 after 30 years.  All the lore and facts of mass effect is decided by the writers so you can't just disregard something because you don't like it.  All we are doing here is trying to come up with a in universe reason as to why they avoided the citadel and if you have a better option then I would be glad to hear it and debate it with you.  But don't just say the writers, because cannon say they had a damn good reason to avoid the citidel and we shouldn't worry about it.

 

Clearly. That's what happens when education loses priority in the political scheme.

 

Small arms fire does not compare in any way with Naval gunfire. As well, the basis of your entire argument relies on the trait that the Reapers aren't firing back. And that they don't have surprise. Or numbers. The Reapers have all 3. They have firepower, surprise, and numbers to their advantage. It took multiple, combined firepower from several fleets to completely fail at draining the barriers of Sovereign (those failed when Shepard caused Saren's avatar to go squishy). And your argument that a single frigate could one-shot a dreadnought without barriers is subverted by the much smaller Reaper on Rannoch which tanks several salvo's from the entire Quarian heavy fleet. Which is again subverted by the Reapers on Earth being destroyed by a single Cain and a few heavy missiles. Which just shows that BioWare isn't great at consistency, seeing as they change lore values for the sake of 'Explosions!' 

 

The argument you make regarding the Reapers has no evidence to support it. It's rather full of supposition on the status of their plans. They aren't fighting an entirely united resistance, and even if they were, there are ways to subvert that effort. Namely, strike fast and hard and use indecision and subterfuge to undermine the opposition, which the Reapers did nigh brilliantly. 

 

Canon never said anything about why the Reapers didn't attack the Citadel, and it's one of those cases that is very difficult to create in an universe rationale for why an action took place. And I should know the distinction, since just last week, I got accused of being a Bio-drone who bends over backwards to do what you're trying to do here by creating an in-universe, rational explanation for the figurative reluctance of the Reapers to assault the Citadel. Short answer; you really can't justify it here, since the Reapers not only had every advantage, but it's just plain out of whack with the rest of their usual M.O. of subjugating the Citadel and using it to undermine the entire galactic civilization via census records, cultural awareness, and isolation/division of targets, and conquest.

[themikefest]

With the reapers supposedly having 20 000, them going straight to the Citadel would suffer no losses They would wipe out the Citadel forces and if by chance the arms close before they get in side, they would just leave a 1000 capital ships surrounding the Citadel while the rest of the reaper fleets head for all the homeworlds. And if by some stroke of luck the allies were able to get to the Citadel they would most likely be destroyed leaving their homeworlds for easy pickings.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The thing is eventually the Reapers do take the Citadel, which happens not only quickly but with very little fuss made about it. So, why didn't the Reapers do that plan sooner? Was an implanted TIM critical for the plan to work?

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

The thing is eventually the Reapers do take the Citadel, which happens not only quickly but with very little fuss made about it. So, why didn't the Reapers do that plan sooner? Was an implanted TIM critical for the plan to work?

 

Because plot.

[Iakus]

I'm not saying that it would win the organics the war, reaper intelligence on the number and use of the thanix is hared to guess so I'm not sure they would know how many they were, but that by attacking the citadel at the start of the war they would risk gathering the bulk of the entire organic fleet for one battle before it was worn down.  I'll say it again, it's not about them losing the battle, but how many ships they are willing to lose by facing the massed organic fleet in one climactic battle.  25 or 30 ships may not be a large number out of 10,000 or 20,000 but it could take 300,000 years or more to replace.  So by facing the organics in smaller battles if they minimize their chance of lose without endangering their odds of wining the war altogether then why would they take that chance when they are committed to 'preserving' lost organic civilizations where each ship lost is the lose of entire civilization?  They aren't in a rush since they aren't going to die of old age and if avoiding the citadel gives them a .0000000000000000000000000000001% better chance of winning with less loss then why wouldn't they?  Sure, the war may take an extra year or ten, but what do they care, there eternal.

 

And if there were just a few hundred Reapers, that might be the case.  Maybe the Reapers would win, but take an unacceptable amount of casualties.

 

But the Reaper fleet outnumbers pretty much the entire known galaxy by a couple of orders of magnitude.  And that's just raw numbers.  Add in the size, firepower, and technology at the Reapers' fingertips and it makes all of ME3 a joke.

 

By fighting smaller battles, the Reapers are more likely to cause the very losses you say they are trying to avoid.

[bunch1]

Small arms fire does not compare in any way with Naval gunfire.

The only difference between infantry and naval forces is the size of the emitters, ezo core, power source, and barrel length.  The principles behind mass accelerators and kinetic barriers does not change with scale, only the power applied.

 

It took multiple, combined firepower from several fleets to completely fail at draining the barriers of Sovereign (those failed when Shepard caused Saren's avatar to go squishy). And your argument that a single frigate could one-shot a dreadnought without barriers is subverted by the much smaller Reaper on Rannoch which tanks several salvo's from the entire Quarian heavy fleet. Which is again subverted by the Reapers on Earth being destroyed by a single Cain and a few heavy missiles. Which just shows that BioWare isn't great at consistency, seeing as they change lore values for the sake of 'Explosions!'

The bulk of the citadel fleets were actually deployed at the relays leading to the citadel, the strategy being to keep the geth from ever getting in striking distance to begin with.  Needless to say that when Saren shut down the network none of these fleets were able to come back and help the small force left behind which so became engaged with the geth fleet that Sovereign brought with him.  The only fleet to focus on Sovereign was the human fleet which contained between 2-3 dozen ships of cruiser and frigate class.  As for the quarin fleet, they are firing swivel mounted mass accelerators that I would be surprised if they were even 30 meters long.  A frigate should have somewhere near 100-150 meter long spinal mounted mass accelerator providing them much greater firepower.

 

The argument you make regarding the Reapers has no evidence to support it. It's rather full of supposition on the status of their plans. They aren't fighting an entirely united resistance, and even if they were, there are ways to subvert that effort. Namely, strike fast and hard and use indecision and subterfuge to undermine the opposition, which the Reapers did nigh brilliantly. 

Shock attacks do tend to break moral which would make the war easier, but they are also often the mostly costly option.

 

 

As well, the basis of your entire argument relies on the trait that the Reapers aren't firing back. And that they don't have surprise. Or numbers. The Reapers have all 3. They have firepower, surprise, and numbers to their advantage.

The reaper fleet split in 2 and launched attacks against Earth and Palaven while sending off raiding parties to attack smaller worlds and keep the other forces off balance.  Assuming they are not holding back the vast majority of their fleet for no particular reason they may have sent up to 1/3 of the fleet attack Palaven by surprise.  What does that say about there inability to take control of the system, and even weeks/months latter the Turian fleet is still fighting back and contesting the system?  And of course I know they are firing back, but we do see reapers fire and they do not fire significantly faster then organic weapons, destroyers only have one gun and sovergien class seem to have a bit of trouble lining up multiple shots.

 

And if there were just a few hundred Reapers, that might be the case.  Maybe the Reapers would win, but take an unacceptable amount of casualties.

 

But the Reaper fleet outnumbers pretty much the entire known galaxy by a couple of orders of magnitude.  And that's just raw numbers.  Add in the size, firepower, and technology at the Reapers' fingertips and it makes all of ME3 a joke.

 

By fighting smaller battles, the Reapers are more likely to cause the very losses you say they are trying to avoid.

See this is ultimately where we are disagreeing, the size of the reaper fleet. You go of the theoretical maximum numbers altered for some casualties and I'm estimating their size based on what they are able to do in the game.  If 15,000 reapers attacked Earth, no ships would have been able to escape, but they did.  If 15,000 reapers attacked Palaven they never would have been able to hold them, but they did.  The reapers in ME 3, the source of cannon we have and not the mythos that was built up in other works, reveals that the reapers are only capable of 2 major offensive action at one time while still having a significant force left to attack smaller colonies and disrupt their enemies movement.  Honestly, I put the combined size of their fleet at around 5,000 ships total based on it's ability to operate in the field.  If there are 50,000+ reapers then they can do whatever they want because they will have the ability to fire 1,000 dreadnaught killing shots every second of a battle.  But I don't see any evidence for that many ships in cannon, I know they have a mythos that built them up to be massive swarms, but that could just be the entire fleet moving from system to system which may be why it took hundreds of years to defeat the protheans.  If I remember right Javick was born long after the citadel fell but the protheans were still fighting back and still had interstellar travel, if they had 100,000 ships why didn't they just roll into every system and destroy their defense and leave a dozen ships behind to indoctrinate everyone on the planet?  They could have had the entire empire in 30 years, but they don't because they don't have the ability to be everywhere all the time. 5,000 ships is still a lot compared to 100 or 200 ships in a large fleet and enough to darken the skies of major population center. 

 

At this point were at a lock because if you honestly believe that they have 30,000, 50,000, or 100,000 ships sitting around doing nothing while ships are getting blown up in orbit of Palaven then their is nothing I can do to convince you.  Though I would question the intelligence of those reapers because that is a massive waste of resources and I wouldn't be surprised it they made many strategic and tactical errors, like leaving the citadel alone given how stupid one would have to be to have all those ships and not use them. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

The only difference between infantry and naval forces is the size of the emitters, ezo core, power source, and barrel length.  The principles behind mass accelerators and kinetic barriers does not change with scale, only the power applied.

 

 

I was inclined to go on a tangent over professional and scholastic experience with being in the Field Artillery and being keen on applied physics, but then I saw the glaring problem: The game doesn't support your assertion. Look at Sovereign. Look at what I said about what happened. Entire fleets did just what you suggested with the SMG's shooting at the barriers at once... to no effect. The fleets had no discernible effect on Sovereigns barriers. It was Shepard's intervention alone that disabled Sovereign long enough for it to be destroyed. Meanwhile, Sovereign was wailing on those fleets like nobodies business. Now, on to the next paragraph of yours, because that's where I get into the meat of your argument. I do love the taste of juicy meat, especially when I eviscerate it with my fork (of Logic! hehe).

 

1) The bulk of the citadel fleets were actually deployed at the relays leading to the citadel, the strategy being to keep the geth from ever getting in striking distance to begin with.                   2) Needless to say that when Saren shut down the network none of these fleets were able to come back and help the small force left behind which so became engaged with the geth fleet that Sovereign brought with him.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     3) The only fleet to focus on Sovereign was the human fleet which contained between 2-3 dozen ships of cruiser and frigate class.                                                                                                     4) As for the quarin fleet, they are firing swivel mounted mass accelerators that I would be surprised if they were even 30 meters long.                                                                                               5) A frigate should have somewhere near 100-150 meter long spinal mounted mass accelerator providing them much greater firepower.

 

1) Well, that failed miserably, because look who got to the Citadel with complete surprise and did tremendous damage that nearly decapitated the entire Citadel leadership! 

 

2) You wonder how they even got through to the Citadel to begin with... The Council really should have thought their strategy through a lot better.

 

3) According to the War Assets, you're wrong: descriptions for several of the main human fleets implies that multiple fleets did indeed participate in the battle (and dreadnoughts were mentioned to be present). As well, you can actually see several Council ships also aiming at and shooting at Sovereign. More than one fleet was wailing on one Reaper. And until Shepard arrived, that Reaper was casually dismissing their fire and blowing them to hell. 

 

4) They were also firing a lot more than just coaxial point defense turrets (those are standoff weapons by the looks of them, designed to target close-in forces and missiles) from more than 5 ships at one smaller Reaper. That's hundreds, potentially a thousand or more ships firing multiple heavy volley's at one smaller Reaper, and it tanking no less than 4 full salvos before going down.

 

5) Yet still nowhere near the scale of magnitude of a Reaper or even a Dreadnought. Against a Reaper, you might as well open the airlock and throw rocks at it.

 

Shock attacks do tend to break moral which would make the war easier, but they are also often the mostly costly option.

 

Speaking from professional experience as an officer in the United States Army, this assertion is true when you have a substantially smaller force in comparison to your attackers. It falls under when you substantially outweigh them in number and firepower. Look at the opening moments of OIF back in 2003. The Iraqi's knew we were coming, and they still couldn't do a damn thing to stop us from steamrolling over their forces in less than a week. We were in Baghdad in less than a week. And the disparity between our forces wasn't especially large. They were armed with mid-late Cold War era tech, and we had the modern tech, and we completely wailed on them. As I said in an earlier post, the disparity between the Council races and the Reapers is a lot bigger. The Council Races are the equivalent to late-industrialized tech found in the interwar-to-early-WWII, compared to the modern assault forces of the Reapers. There isn't a hell of lot of stuff you can throw at them that they won't repel without trouble.

 

The Reapers have both. As I said, see what happened when just one Reaper attacked the Citadel? I'd wager that two full-size Reapers would be able to take it. Granted, I'd be assuming the Reapers would be using more numbers than that. But the costliness of the assault is completely undermined by the sheer scale in how powerful the Reapers are compared to the others. 

 

The reaper fleet split in 2 and launched attacks against Earth and Palaven while sending off raiding parties to attack smaller worlds and keep the other forces off balance.  Assuming they are not holding back the vast majority of their fleet for no particular reason they may have sent up to 1/3 of the fleet attack Palaven by surprise.  What does that say about there inability to take control of the system, and even weeks/months latter the Turian fleet is still fighting back and contesting the system?  And of course I know they are firing back, but we do see reapers fire and they do not fire significantly faster then organic weapons, destroyers only have one gun and sovergien class seem to have a bit of trouble lining up multiple shots.

 

It makes no difference how large the Reaper fleet divides itself. And from looking at what happened at Palaven? What was 5 or 6 Reapers in orbit facing a large portion of the entire Turian Navy? And casually smashing it? The Reapers seemed to be focusing a lot more on actually subjugating the planet than taking on the assaults of Turian fleet, especially when they adapted their skills to them. You hear it everywhere, with how bad the Turians are having it. And I doubt more than a few hundred Reapers attacked either Earth or Palaven. The rest of the Reapers, you guessed it, were needed somewhere else. There's a lot of planets to conquer, better get to it. The Turians strategy is mostly on irregular warfare and not engaging the Reapers directly. Though they are keeping the Reapers occupied, they also acknowledge that they're not even so much as scratching the paint on the Reapers. As well, the Reapers are more interested in the harvesting phase of their invasion than the fighting part. The Turian resistance is acknowledged to be largely ineffectual.

 

Also, your assessment is inconsistent with established lore, given that Reapers are acknowledged as having far superior aim, range, and targeting ability by the codex compared to any Citadel fleets. They don't need to fire as fast as the Citadel ships. They're in a tank getting peppered with machine gun fire. That's basically impunity for them. 

[bunch1]

I was inclined to go on a tangent over professional and scholastic experience with being in the Field Artillery and being keen on applied physics, but then I saw the glaring problem: The game doesn't support your assertion. Look at Sovereign. Look at what I said about what happened. Entire fleets did just what you suggested with the SMG's shooting at the barriers at once... to no effect. The fleets had no discernible effect on Sovereigns barriers. It was Shepard's intervention alone that disabled Sovereign long enough for it to be destroyed. Meanwhile, Sovereign was wailing on those fleets like nobodies business. Now, on to the next paragraph of yours, because that's where I get into the meat of your argument. I do love the taste of juicy meat, especially when I eviscerate it with my fork (of Logic! hehe).

 

 

1) Well, that failed miserably, because look who got to the Citadel with complete surprise and did tremendous damage that nearly decapitated the entire Citadel leadership! 

 

2) You wonder how they even got through to the Citadel to begin with... The Council really should have thought their strategy through a lot better.

 

3) According to the War Assets, you're wrong: descriptions for several of the main human fleets implies that multiple fleets did indeed participate in the battle (and dreadnoughts were mentioned to be present). As well, you can actually see several Council ships also aiming at and shooting at Sovereign. More than one fleet was wailing on one Reaper. And until Shepard arrived, that Reaper was casually dismissing their fire and blowing them to hell. 

 

4) They were also firing a lot more than just coaxial point defense turrets (those are standoff weapons by the looks of them, designed to target close-in forces and missiles) from more than 5 ships at one smaller Reaper. That's hundreds, potentially a thousand or more ships firing multiple heavy volley's at one smaller Reaper, and it tanking no less than 4 full salvos before going down.

 

5) Yet still nowhere near the scale of magnitude of a Reaper or even a Dreadnought. Against a Reaper, you might as well open the airlock and throw rocks at it.

 

I distinctly remember seeing a limb being blown off a sovereign class reaper during the battle of Earth, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that prove that massed firepower of lower powered cannons is capable of taking down its shield and damaging or destroying a reaper? 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

I distinctly remember seeing a limb being blown off a sovereign class reaper during the battle of Earth, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that prove that massed firepower of lower powered cannons is capable of taking down its shield and damaging or destroying a reaper? 

 

It does. I never said that it didn't either, but yes, it's taking a lot of massed firepower. From the entirety of the allied fleets no less. There are going to be a few Reapers destroyed after all.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

They didn't bother because it wouldn't have worked. They know we have Space Jesus.

[themikefest]

I distinctly remember seeing a limb being blown off a sovereign class reaper during the battle of Earth, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that prove that massed firepower of lower powered cannons is capable of taking down its shield and damaging or destroying a reaper? 

The ship fired two shots blowing off two legs and then that same ship was destroyed a moment later

[bunch1]

It does. I never said that it didn't either, but yes, it's taking a lot of massed firepower. From the entirety of the allied fleets no less. There are going to be a few Reapers destroyed after all.

That was my whole point, that if organics gathered in large enough numbers they do pose a threat and that as the capital of galactic civilization the citadel would likely be the most protected place in the galaxy and thus the most dangerous target for them to attack.  I never meant to imply that the reapers would loose or suffer heavy losses, but that by engaging smaller fleets as they do in ME 3 they are likely to sustain less losses then a full assault on the citadel.  We can go back and forth on whether it would have been better to just take out the organic fleet and just how many ships they would have lost, if any, but it is important to remember they have never fought this kind of war before, the whole thing is new to them so it's not exactly realistic to expect them to perform perfectly during their first war where they are invading from dark space and the organics have use of the relay network. 

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

That was my whole point, that if organics gathered in large enough numbers they do pose a threat and that as the capital of galactic civilization the citadel would likely be the most protected place in the galaxy and thus the most dangerous target for them to attack.  I never meant to imply that the reapers would loose or suffer heavy losses, but that by engaging smaller fleets as they do in ME 3 they are likely to sustain less losses then a full assault on the citadel.  We can go back and forth on whether it would have been better to just take out the organic fleet and just how many ships they would have lost, if any, but it is important to remember they have never fought this kind of war before, the whole thing is new to them so it's not exactly realistic to expect them to perform perfectly during their first war where they are invading from dark space and the organics have use of the relay network. 

 

The problem with your plan is that you aren't accounting for the Reapers own numbers. You're assuming that 3 maybe 4 Reapers are fighting the entire galaxy, when that's shown to definitely not be the case at all. 

 

As I've stated, the Reapers are so technologically ascendant over the rest of the galaxy that they'd still trounce over the Citadel no matter how well defended in a matter of minutes. Likely while sustaining no casualties if they came completely by surprise. 

 

The fleets of the galaxy have only one purpose. Not to kill any Reapers, since numbers, firepower, and technology moots any advantage the rest of the galaxy might have over them, but the purpose is to make as many meat shields as possible for the Crucible. 

 

And yes, I do expect the Reapers to react perfectly. They're machines, with a hive-mentality, and a sapient computer for a brain. They're able to plan and execute in seconds what other species wouldn't be able to plan for in years. 

 

A full assault on the Citadel by the Reapers would be a hilarious curbstomp on their part. If it was by surprise, it would be a hilarious curbstomp with no losses (instead of the one or two that they'd end up losing).

[bunch1]

The problem with your plan is that you aren't accounting for the Reapers own numbers. You're assuming that 3 maybe 4 Reapers are fighting the entire galaxy, when that's shown to definitely not be the case at all. 

 

As I've stated, the Reapers are so technologically ascendant over the rest of the galaxy that they'd still trounce over the Citadel no matter how well defended in a matter of minutes. Likely while sustaining no casualties if they came completely by surprise. 

 

The fleets of the galaxy have only one purpose. Not to kill any Reapers, since numbers, firepower, and technology moots any advantage the rest of the galaxy might have over them, but the purpose is to make as many meat shields as possible for the Crucible. 

 

And yes, I do expect the Reapers to react perfectly. They're machines, with a hive-mentality, and a sapient computer for a brain. They're able to plan and execute in seconds what other species wouldn't be able to plan for in years. 

 

A full assault on the Citadel by the Reapers would be a hilarious curbstomp on their part. If it was by surprise, it would be a hilarious curbstomp with no losses (instead of the one or two that they'd end up losing).

There were more then 4 reapers at Earth, infact it looked to be over 100 sovereign class to my eye, and they were still being blown up and after hours of fighting the organics were still in large enough numbers to protect the crucible so how fast are those reapers able to actually destroy them is a big question.  The numbers is a big issue though because lore says one thing but cannon wise the reapers simple don't seem to have the 10,000+ ships that they should unless they are hiding them somewhere and refusing to use them for some reason we can't understand.  If you believe they have 50,000+ ships then you are absolutely right and the whole war should be a curbstomp, but they just don't seem to be using that many ships so I tend to put their fleet down to around 5,000 total.

 

And while the fleets of the galaxy are serving as a shield they also happen to be damaging/destroying reapers, intended or not they are clearly capable or destruction.

 

Machines can only react to parameters they have already installed in their program, they have no info on how to carry out a galactic invasion when organics have control of the relay network so they are operating without critical info and they do not have the ability to guess or estimate the enemy because they are machines which may be causing a logic failure and explain their poor tactics.  Another theory, they have never actually attacked the citadel before, they came through the relay and defended themselves from who was there and the keepers gave them the station, attacking it may just not be in there program, while capture the catalyst may be which would allow them to attack and capture the citadel the moment it is revealed to by the catalyst.

 

I'm starting to wonder if reaper arrogance though would mean an attack would likely only contain a few dozen ships instead of their whole fleet, what would they need that many ships for, and a few dozen reaper ships vs the bulk or the citadel races fleet may have some interesting results.

[Hello!I'mTheDoctor]

There were more then 4 reapers at Earth, infact it looked to be over 100 sovereign class to my eye, and they were still being blown up and after hours of fighting the organics were still in large enough numbers to protect the crucible so how fast are those reapers able to actually destroy them is a big question.  The numbers is a big issue though because lore says one thing but cannon wise the reapers simple don't seem to have the 10,000+ ships that they should unless they are hiding them somewhere and refusing to use them for some reason we can't understand.  If you believe they have 50,000+ ships then you are absolutely right and the whole war should be a curbstomp, but they just don't seem to be using that many ships so I tend to put their fleet down to around 5,000 total.

 

 

Yes, there were a lot more than 4 Reapers at Earth. There were enough to singularly be able to dispatch the allied fleet of the entire galaxy without need of any supporting elements or reinforcements. To be fair, the only Reapers I saw actually being destroyed in the entire battle were the smaller ones on Earth, that were destroyed by Shepard himself. As I said, this is the big ball behind the plan: the only reason you're able to get the Crucible to the Citadel is because you have enough bullet sponges to take the Reapers firepower. Lore and canon are one and the same; you don't separate them, and there is no big yield of Reapers hiding out and doing nothing. It's a big galaxy. They're all out conquering it. Not every Reaper is going to be at Earth. If that was the case, you'd have no chance period. 

 

And while the fleets of the galaxy are serving as a shield they also happen to be damaging/destroying reapers, intended or not they are clearly capable or destruction.

 

 

Well of course, but they aren't destroying or damaging any Reapers in any meaningful number. I don't know what you're trying to argue with this point, beyond stating the obvious. I do that though: I'm good enough at arguing that I tend to disarm people to the point where they start giving inane statements that are divorced from their primary assertion.

 

Machines can only react to parameters they have already installed in their program, they have no info on how to carry out a galactic invasion when organics have control of the relay network so they are operating without critical info and they do not have the ability to guess or estimate the enemy because they are machines which may be causing a logic failure and explain their poor tactics.  Another theory, they have never actually attacked the citadel before, they came through the relay and defended themselves from who was there and the keepers gave them the station, attacking it may just not be in there program, while capture the catalyst may be which would allow them to attack and capture the citadel the moment it is revealed to by the catalyst.

 

And the Reapers are sapient machines capable of changing the software parameters in their program. They have no info on how to carry out a galactic invasion when the galaxy disable's their relay ability? Clearly, that's not the case at all, as Mass Effect 3 proves. Otherwise, they'd shut down due to the logic bomb. It's as simple as coming up with a thought experiment. All they have to do is get an accurate knowledge of organic sizes, populations, territory, culture, and capabilities. Put that info into their plan, and voila! They have their awesome-anti-organic-deluxe-9000x-magnificent galactic invasion plan. 

 

As has been stated, the best explanation for their poor tactics in this case is poor writing at BioWare. 

 

That's a very contrived and argument of supposition, that relies on the arbitrary gain of information about the true nature of the Citadel (which they built so they ought to outright know its true purpose). Also, you're forgetting the nature of the Reapers: They're sapient. Sentient. They're capable of learning, growing, knowing, and thinking independently. They might not be able to overcome a hardware issue (as we as humans wouldn't be able to perceive a certain flaw that a notional external entity might), but as far as programming and software goes, I'd be surprised if they didn't have the autonomy to change their goal, tactics, approach. Any good combat computer system, even today, is adaptable. You're imposing the limitations of a laptop computer on a sentient, sapient machine that thinks for itself and has self-awareness.

 

I'm starting to wonder if reaper arrogance though would mean an attack would likely only contain a few dozen ships instead of their whole fleet, what would they need that many ships for, and a few dozen reaper ships vs the bulk or the citadel races fleet may have some interesting results

 

The Reapers are arrogant, but they aren't arrogant in that aspect. They know their limitations and their advantages. They're not going to overestimate their own prowess just because they view themselves as gods. That's not very machine-like to assume invulnerability. They know their strengths and weaknesses and they know how to supplant them and mitigate them respectively.

[bunch1]

Well of course, but they aren't destroying or damaging any Reapers in any meaningful number. I don't know what you're trying to argue with this point, beyond stating the obvious. I do that though: I'm good enough at arguing that I tend to disarm people to the point where they start giving inane statements that are divorced from their primary assertion.

 

You want to know my point?  I'll say it again, massed organics pose a threat.  That is it.  And where are you likely to find the most organic ships in one spot at the start of the war?  The citadel.  If all there computing power tells them that they run a .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of losing 1 more ship by attacking the citadel at the start of the war rather then by waiting then they aren't going to rush the issue.  Fleet shows up, organics all target 1 ship and blow it up, reapers level 25% or organics, organics blow another ship and lose half their remaining ships, battle over, if those 2 ships could be saved by avoiding that battle why would they engage if they don't have to to win the war.   We know organics can harm or destroy reapers, the reapers likely know that to so why would they put themselves into harms way if they don't have to.  To rush the harvest, they got time.  If this harvest takes 500 years they don't care, as long as they compute they are taking the safest option because as much as they maybe sentient, they are still computers and don't have that creativity or risk taking mentality, that is why the catalyst want's syntheses.