687 réponses à ce sujet

[aTigerslunch]

My bad, been awhile since I slain Loghain last. Though I know how to kill the Warden, Zevran was an amateur.

 

But yes, the prison thing is way up in the air, and just a grasp of straws of what could happen, no idea besides that example of the dwarf origin. Still is a death, fast or slow, because of Loghain regardless. Since it was he that deemed to be that way. Bit indirectly then, which is questionable on just that piece. 

 

His attempt is ....oops, forgot the other group of assassins.  Actually, outside of Orzammar, group of assassins, they said Loghain sends his regards. Nearly forgot about them. That would be the second attempt, cause that is before the questionable prison time. 

 

Also, there was another attempt before Zevran, soldiers left behind in the tavern in Lothering was the first ones, then it was Zevran, then the ones outside of Orzammar, none of these guys were worth anything though. The next attempt was his Second before going into Landsmeet, depending how a Warden dealt with her. Or was she alone in doing that stopping the Warden, I think Loghain had her there on purpose, I need to relook at that point of encounter. She maybe acting alone there, cant recall. So, there is definitive 3 before prison time.

[Former_Fiend]

I really don't think you can call slave trafficking a "good move" on any level.  There's no defending Loghain there.

 

I'm not trying to defend it on any kind of moral grounds.I believe slavery's reprehensible. 

 

I'm saying that from a tactical stand point the move wasn't really a mistake; he needed to raise funds due to the royal coffers being empty(I forget why they're empty at the moment), and the slave trade was the most profitable way for him to do that as it required no expenditure of resources on his part, just turning a blind eye. It's not even that bad of a move, politically; it's one of the least damaging bits of evidence you can bring against him at the Landsmeet. 

 

Morally it's a horrible thing to do. I'm not denying that. And I'm not supporting it or condoning it. But the post I was quoting was condemning it as a tactical move when really that's not the grounds you can condemn it on.

[TEWR]

The funds are empty due to a combination of the Bannorn's civil war (the rumors point to the first battle being the result of a bann who wanted to "negotiate" with Loghain, and Loghain once recruited said he never wanted a Civil War. Something Cauthrien tells us before.) and Howe embezzling from the treasury. To say nothing of how if Loghain had gotten the Circle on his side, the slavery wouldn't have even really been necessary.

[AshenEndymion]

His attempt is ....oops, forgot the other group of assassins.  Actually, outside of Orzammar, group of assassins, they said Loghain sends his regards. Nearly forgot about them. That would be the second attempt, cause that is before the questionable prison time. 

 

Also, there was another attempt before Zevran, soldiers left behind in the tavern in Lothering was the first ones, then it was Zevran, then the ones outside of Orzammar, none of these guys were worth anything though. The next attempt was his Second before going into Landsmeet, depending how a Warden dealt with her. Or was she alone in doing that stopping the Warden, I think Loghain had her there on purpose, I need to relook at that point of encounter. She maybe acting alone there, cant recall. So, there is definitive 3 before prison time.

 

The guards in Lothering and the group outside Orzammar I consider as the same attempt as hiring Zevran.  Loghain puts a bounty on Grey Wardens.  Then he pays the Crows to kill the Warden specifically(and really, this is just prepaying the bounty to the Crows).  The initial bounty is the attempt on the Wardens life.  Just because 2+ people try to collect on the bounty(because, you know, the first groups failed) doesn't mean that Loghain has tried to have the Warden killed more than once...

 

And Cauthrien stops you outside the Landsmeet chambers out of duty to Loghain, not because he orders her to.  He may have, but there's no evidence one way or the other, and the reasons Cauthrien gives are along the lines of her loyalty to Loghain and the Warden's unworthiness to side against Loghain at the Landsmeet, rather than Loghain not wishing the Warden there...

[aTigerslunch]

That isn't one attempt though, those are three different locations, different timing as well. They are individual groups. I don't see them as one. First group in Lothering were soldiers. The ones outside of Orzommar are a different group of assassins, and not soldiers. Then Zevran being part of the crows, different groups, soldiers definitely an attempt separate from the two assassin groups, due to timing in story, the assassins weren't till after the Lothering attempt. Those are definitive two, minimum, The two assassin groups are separate groups of assassins, not the same, I will see them as two myself not one. But the soldiers and assassins are not same timeframes. I cant say the assassins are separate timeframes though, cause that is really dependent on a Warden's choices. If they go to Orzammar before the Crow cutscene in Denerim then it was two separate assassination attempts, if at same timeframe of Zevrans encounter then yes, same attempt.

 

I did say I was questionable about Cauthrien, stating she could been on her own as I couldn't remember. However, I did lay out there is definite two different groups. I claim three myself, but not all three of those were tied in together, two of the three could get tied in together but not all three groups into one attempt.

[AshenEndymion]

That isn't one attempt though, those are three different locations, different timing as well. They are individual groups. I don't see them as one. First group in Lothering were soldiers. The ones outside of Orzommar are a different group of assassins, and not soldiers. Then Zevran being part of the crows, different groups, soldiers definitely an attempt separate from the two assassin groups, due to timing in story, the assassins weren't till after the Lothering attempt. Those are definitive two, minimum, The two assassin groups are separate groups of assassins, not the same, I will see them as two myself not one. But the soldiers and assassins are not same timeframes. I cant say the assassins are separate timeframes though, cause that is really dependent on a Warden's choices. If they go to Orzammar before the Crow cutscene in Denerim then it was two separate assassination attempts, if at same timeframe of Zevrans encounter then yes, same attempt.

 

I don't believe that the timeframes don't matter.  The assassins outside Orzammar and the soldiers in Lothering are only trying to kill you because there is a bounty on your head.  The bounty is Loghain's attempt on the Warden's life.  The people coming to claim the bounty, aren't trying to kill the Warden for some different reason of Loghain's.  Those assassins in Orzammar weren't going to murder the Warden's corpse if those soldiers in Lothering had succeeded...

 

As for the Crow's, they are sent because the bounty isn't working.  Rather than raise the bounty, Loghain agrees to paying the Crows.  Payment upfront, and the Crows go after the Warden until he's dead.  But I don't really consider this a second attempt.  I consider this a part of the original bounty, and thus it's all part of Loghain's first attempt on the Warden's life.

 

As I said before, I understand how you come to the conclusion that these are additional attempts on the Warden's life, so ultimately, my initial question was answered.  I just disagree with that conclusion...

[aTigerslunch]

The bounties I didn't add cause they didn't know, which were the ones in The Pearl after reading a poster. There was a few others that attacked that also were separate like in Lothering fields with the farmers. The messenger in Orzammar also doesn't know The Warden till mention the papers.

 

I can see what you mean as in one attempt via bounty on Wardens heads as one attempt.

 

Though I will still see it as separately cause soldiers were left in place on purpose, wasn't just random head bounty claim. There was a description left with them to look for our Warden specifically, then Zevran to hunt our specific Warden. I will still claim two, the other group of assassins did say Loghain sends his regards, meaning they was sent out specifically for our Warden as well but they could be part of the Crow deal depending how and when they are confronted.

 

 

 

Which means, Loghain attempting to kill us, depends on if wish to be cruel and make him suffer a long wait till death or be merciful and just kill him there and now.

[b09boy]

Ah, this discussion.  I never grow tired of discussing Loghain.  Such an interesting antagonist/rival character.  At a glance he seems so undeniably evil, and certainly he does some things no truly moral person would do.  And yet there is definite intelligence to everything he does.

 

-He sets up a stronghold at Ostagar and there defeats the blight army multiple times.

-He predicts the Orlesians are using Cailan and are attempting another takeover...which they are (though in ways not even he quite expected, by their empress seducing him and offering a marriage proposal).  Seeing this go down, he preemptively takes out Cailan's strongest supporter by incapacitating Eamon.  This is key.  Even without Loghain present, there is no way the rest of Ferelden would sit idly while Orlais returned to the country.  Eamon was too young to remember and didn't participate in the war, but the Couslands did, as did Howe and most the other lords.  Eamon would be the only one who could really muster up support to allow another Orlesian invasion, which would have caused an even bloodier civil war than we saw.

-He realizes Ostagar is likely doomed and concocts a plan to either smash the darkspawn horde or be able to retreat with most his men, sacrificing only outsiders not part of his army.  Note two things with this plan.  First, Loghain never comes to realize the importance of the Wardens in a blight until the end and, due to how enigmatic they are as well as their centuries old claim that the last blight would be the last, takes a long time to be convinced it is a blight at all.  Second, he did not want Cailan a part of the standing army and repeatedly tries to convince him not to go.  Third, judging by the number of darkspawn we see (on the bridge, we can clearly see their torches winding up into the mountains in the distance) he actually makes the correct choice abandoning the field.  The battle was unwinnable and his force would have been slaughtered should it have attacked.

-With Cailan and the Wardens dead, he actually does a pretty politically savvy thing and blames the Wardens for Cailan's death and placing a bounty on the remainder's head.  Questionable, yes, but it helps keep at bay any lingering support for Orlesian reinforcements and, on paper, doesn't cost him anything as the Wardens should all be dead with any possible survivors few and far between, making blaming them, while unjust, cheap, easy, and rewarding.  He just had no way of accounting for Flemeth's intervention.

-This done, he does exactly what the Warden sets out to and gathers allies.  The problem?  The mages reject his offer because Wynne doesn't like that he quit the field (despite it being the sound choice) and the dwarves have locked themselves tight in the midst of their own power struggle.

-While this is going on we get to...the civil war.  A war which he didn't start and one which ends up as rather senseless.  Loghain is trying to gather allies to fight the darkspawn so Teagan and other lords begin a civil war to...oust him?  Why?  In favor of what?  He's a regent in a time of war, not an actual king (his daughter still holds official title).  So what is it they want to do?  Alistair isn't in the picture yet and Eamon is sick and dying for all they know so they're starting this civil war with no leader to put in place.  Looking at this, Loghain is actually entirely blameless.

-Then comes the assassins.  Once the Wardens come back into the picture Loghain quickly realizes the threat.  He made a mistake blaming them when they've managed to escape into the country proper, but he can't just call it off and make amends.  It's too late for that.  Neither can he sit and let them be as they're going to attach to the opposing faction in the civil war and become a symbol to rally around, making it more difficult for him to gather allies for the fight.  So he accepts hiring the Crows to do away with them quickly...which they fail at.

-And then we come to what we all recognize as his single most evil act...which also happens to be one of his most intelligent decisions.  Loghain is desperate by this point.  He's at a loss for allies, resources are dwindling, and his most effective subordinate is skimming the few remaining resources off the top.  Meanwhile the blight is bearing down.  So what does he do?  He allows Tevinter to come in and enslave the elves, eliminating three birds with one stone.  First, it allows him the gold needed to help fund the war effort.  Second, it depopulates an overcrowded and otherwise useless portion of town so he can more easily maneuver within the city should the need arise.  Third, it opens up talks with Tevinter, the most notable collection of mages in the world, and ones who would have no interest in taking over Ferelden considering how isolated it is from them and yet have every reason to join the fray considering their history against the darkspawn.

 

In the end, it's comical the string of bad luck Loghain endures throughout the course of the story.  He predicts everything which can be predicted and reacts intelligently to what happens considering the state of things, but there's so much working against him.  Cailan and the Orlesians basically make him into our antagonist rather than our greatest ally and Duncan being so secretive pretty much eliminated any chance of Loghain reacting properly until it was too late.

[Ryzaki]

Oh Loghain?

 

Yeah he's dead.

 

Yep pretty sure archie enjoyed his meal.

 

On that note I wonder if he'll be mentioned if he died in the redeemer ending. Anora did build a big ol statue for him...maybe we can see it XD

[Spicen]

Sure there is. Loghain removes the most unruly and unproductive section of the population, and gains money to pay for the army he needs for the current civil war. It's a win-win. The only reason not to resort to slave trafficking is "morality"(ie "slavery is wrong"). Loghain doesn't have any moral leg to stand on, but to imply there are no legitimate reasons for the deal isI dont ludicrous.

Excuse me WHAT??? There is no defending slavery. I just.......lol are u even human. Do u even have any idea what ur talking about. What were you smoking when you wrote this

[aTigerslunch]

Loghain was done right.   I like him as an antagonist.

[Shark17676]

Sure there is.  Loghain removes the most unruly and unproductive section of the population, and gains money to pay for the army he needs for the current civil war.  It's a win-win.  The only reason not to resort to slave trafficking is "morality"(ie "slavery is wrong").  Loghain doesn't have any moral leg to stand on, but to imply there are no legitimate reasons for the deal is ludicrous.

 

Please.  The only thing that's ludicrous is attempting to rationalize slave trafficking.

[Shark17676]

But the post I was quoting was condemning it as a tactical move when really that's not the grounds you can condemn it on.

 

Nope.  Nope.  And nope.  Pretty much all the nopes here.

 

It's a condemnable action no matter how you slice it.  Even in war, there are some levels you just don't stoop to if you have any sense of honor and morality whatsoever.

[Former_Fiend]

Nope.  Nope.  And nope.  Pretty much all the nopes here.

 

It's a condemnable action no matter how you slice it.  Even in war, there are some levels you just don't stoop to if you have any sense of honor and morality whatsoever.

 

Look, we're splitting hairs here.

 

I condemn the action on moral grounds; it was reprehensible. I'm not debating that, I'm not arguing that, I'm not denying that. I am not defending Loghain selling the elves as slaves. 

 

But you can't call it bad tactics. Primarily because it isn't a tactical decision at all; it's an economic decision.  So saying he's a bad tactician because he sold the elves as slaves is like saying he's a bad chef because he prefers tulips to roses; one has nothing to do with the other. Essentially I'm arguing semantics, here; if you're going to condemn the action, at least condemn it in the proper category.

[n0na90]

I don't think they did Loghain right. I haven't read any books or anything, I'm no expert on the DA universe, but what I see when I play the original game is a character that is completely shoehorned to fit a role, and as a person his decisions doesn't make sense. The things he do simply do not add up to what he appears to be trying to achieve. That's how I felt, at least. There were moments when Bioware tried to get more in depth with Loghain, to see his point of view, but it just made it more weird. So in the end, my opinion is that as an idea Loghain was great, but the execution of that idea, what we see in the game, isn't up to par. 

 

So I kind of want to like him, I like the concept,  but he's one of those characters I feel fell completely short of his potential. 

 

If in Inquisition I load a save where he is dead, I expect him to be dead, and vice versa. I wouldn't mind a Loghain cameo I guess, but there are other characters I'd rather get to see again.

[Shark17676]

 

I am not defending Loghain selling the elves as slaves.

 

You keep saying that, and then in your very next breath it's always, "Well...let me tell you why tactically it was a good idea."  That's still defending Loghain's actions.

 

If we're on the same page here, then why did you even bother to debate my first post on the matter, which called his slave trafficking reprehensible and that was basically it?

 

And for the record...no, it wasn't a tactically sound move, either.  It helped to turn everyone against him in the end.

[TEWR]

Loghain was done right.   I like him as an antagonist.

 

Loghain was more the result of being an accident that turned out right rather then being done right.

[AshenEndymion]

And for the record...no, it wasn't a tactically sound move, either.  It helped to turn everyone against him in the end.

 

No it doesn't.  It only turns one vote.  A vote the Warden probably already has if he saved that Bann's son in Howe's dungeon.  So decrying Loghain's plan to sell Elves into slavery is, essentially, using one of your attempts to persuade the nobles with "he's a bad man, too".  Which isn't very effective at all.

 

The nobles might say they dislike Loghain's actions there, but they don't really give a damn, because it was only elves.

[Xandurpein]

You keep saying that, and then in your very next breath it's always, "Well...let me tell you why tactically it was a good idea."  That's still defending Loghain's actions.
 
If we're on the same page here, then why did you even bother to debate my first post on the matter, which called his slave trafficking reprehensible and that was basically it?
 
And for the record...no, it wasn't a tactically sound move, either.  It helped to turn everyone against him in the end.

Why is it so hard to distinguish moral and logical arguments. There are logical arguments both for and against slavery. On the one hand I gain materially if my defeated enemies becom my slave. On the otherhand, the same thing can happen to me next time.

There's of course no moral argument for slavery that can stand daylight, and the issue of slavery clearly shows how morally bancrupt Loghain had become in his rule. But moral and logical arguments are two different things, even if they can affect the same issue.

Logical arguments can explain behaviour, but never justify anything, because the word 'justify" implies a moral argument. Newtons law doesn't justify gravity, it explains it. Loghain's desperate need for cash explains why he sold elves as slaves, but it doesn't justify it. Our rejection of slavery can be explained by the fact the we know the shoe could be on the other foot, but it can also be justified by the fact that it clashes with our moral belief in equal rights.

[SofaJockey]

The Loghain debate is an interesting one.

I had never let him live but with: Stolen Crown and Masked Empire now read I can see some texture to Loghain and Celene I had not seen before.

 

And the documents left in the ruins of Ostagar make the steps inevitable for Loghain don't they...

 

I'm running through DAO again to see how the Landsmeet will go differently this time...

[The Baconer]

I'm not trying to defend it on any kind of moral grounds.I believe slavery's reprehensible. 

 

I'm saying that from a tactical stand point the move wasn't really a mistake; he needed to raise funds due to the royal coffers being empty(I forget why they're empty at the moment), and the slave trade was the most profitable way for him to do that as it required no expenditure of resources on his part, just turning a blind eye. It's not even that bad of a move, politically; it's one of the least damaging bits of evidence you can bring against him at the Landsmeet. 

 

Morally it's a horrible thing to do. I'm not denying that. And I'm not supporting it or condoning it. But the post I was quoting was condemning it as a tactical move when really that's not the grounds you can condemn it on.

 

I think it would have made a great excuse for a second Orlesian occupation, backed by the Chantry. Or maybe even having it divided up amongst several White Chantry nations via Exalted March.

[Fizzie Panda]

Yep pretty sure archie enjoyed his meal.

 

On that note I wonder if he'll be mentioned if he died in the redeemer ending. Anora did build a big ol statue for him...maybe we can see it XD

Ohhh yeah, that'll be fun! Hahahaha

[Former_Fiend]

I think it would have made a great excuse for a second Orlesian occupation, backed by the Chantry. Or maybe even having it divided up amongst several White Chantry nations via Exalted March.

 

You say the first part of that as if Orlais needs an excuse to occupy Ferelden. And the second part of that as if the Chantry gives two sh*ts about elves.

 

You keep saying that, and then in your very next breath it's always, "Well...let me tell you why tactically it was a good idea."  That's still defending Loghain's actions.

 

If we're on the same page here, then why did you even bother to debate my first post on the matter, which called his slave trafficking reprehensible and that was basically it?

 

And for the record...no, it wasn't a tactically sound move, either.  It helped to turn everyone against him in the end.

 

I'd say I'm playing devil's advocate, but I'm not really even doing that. I'm asking that those who criticize him do so on the proper grounds. If you want to condemn it as a moral action then please, do so. You should. It's an inhuman thing to do. Who knows how many dozens of innocent elves are languishing in slavery in Tevinter because of it? How many have been sacrificed in blood magic rituals or simply killed for not sweeping the floor fast enough? How many have been raped by their new masters? All of that, Loghain's fault. So by all means, lay that blame on his feet and that weight on his shoulders; it's a guilt he should carry with him for the rest of his life, however short it may be. 

 

And to echo the above, it really didn't. It is one of the weakest arguments you can use in the Landsmeet; as stated above, it only wins you one vote which you probably have already. It certainly doesn't 

[aTigerslunch]

Looks like my quisi needs to dropkick Magisters. 

 

Warden, Hawke and Quisi go to town on the Magisters to free the slaves. (most of mine would anyways, one of each would want to kill everyone just for fun).