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[TurretSyndrome]

Ah, this discussion.  I never grow tired of discussing Loghain.  Such an interesting antagonist/rival character.  At a glance he seems so undeniably evil, and certainly he does some things no truly moral person would do.  And yet there is definite intelligence to everything he does.

 

Well put my friend, I applaud you. He really was heavy with bad luck. He just had absolutely no information to go on regarding the Blight and took decisions as any intelligent General would at the time. His slavery act might be questionable but you were right about turning what's useless to the war effort into something very useful. I would also add that the relations with Tevinter Imperium would have only improved simply because of the fact that both he, and the Tevinters hate Orlais. 

 

Honestly, to the Grey Wardens who act the same way as him when it comes to defeating the Darkspawn threat(i.e. whatever it takes), he is indeed an excellent addition. Hope he makes an appearance in Inquisition. Too bad Loghain wasn't picked to be the military advisor instead of Cullen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Too bad Loghain wasn't picked to be the military advisor instead of Cullen.

Loghain is dead in the majority of playthroughs, Cullen is always alive. You do the math.

[TEWR]

Cullen being a military advisor doesn't make much sense. He's got no real experience in warfare. At best, he has an experience dealing with one battle and maybe being a bit of a leader. But warfare's a protracted thing.

 

Course, his blurb did say that he was pretty much recruited solely for his character (in-universe I mean).

[The Baconer]

You say the first part of that as if Orlais needs an excuse to occupy Ferelden.

 

It does if they want as many of the nobles behind the idea as possible. Or if they want to invite other nations to a gang-bang.

 

 

And the second part of that as if the Chantry gives two sh*ts about elves.

 

Probably not, I would think they'd care more about the ruler of Fereldan colluding with the Black Divine... Is it a nation of heretics?

[Spicen]

Lol this thread is still alive?

[Shark17676]

Lol this thread is still alive?

 

Believe it or not, people are still trying to justify slave trafficking, selling lives for gold, just because Loghain's their oh so tragic and misunderstood favorite character.  He could've gone on a murderous rampage through an orphanage and they'll still say it was "for the best".

[Spicen]

Believe it or not, people are still trying to justify slave trafficking, selling lives for gold, just because Loghain's their oh so tragic and misunderstood favorite character. He could've gone on a murderous rampage through an orphanage and they'll still say it was "for the best".

double post

[Spicen]

Believe it or not, people are still trying to justify slave trafficking, selling lives for gold, just because Loghain's their oh so tragic and misunderstood favorite character. He could've gone on a murderous rampage through an orphanage and they'll still say it was "for the best".

Lol yeah i know. No wonder so many girls are sold to slavery in usa in philipines
Theyll support loghain, even if sent assassins against their wardens. I mean when u think theres nothing wrong with someone trying to kill u, there is defo sth wrong with u

[Spicen]

double post

[dragonflight288]

Believe it or not, people are still trying to justify slave trafficking, selling lives for gold, just because Loghain's their oh so tragic and misunderstood favorite character.  He could've gone on a murderous rampage through an orphanage and they'll still say it was "for the best".

 

People, from my experience, aren't justifiying slavery or anything like that, simply pointing out why he does so while also condeming him for it, but are defending his choices at Ostagar as they feel that a tactical retreat at that point was truly the right thing to do. 

 

And then people who hate Loghain take the defense of his actions at Ostagar to also mean a defense of everything the man does. 

[Mistic]

What I don't understand is why some people say he's a good general. Am I the only one who remembers that Loghain was actually in charge of planning the entire operation at Ostagar? The only thing that went against plan was Cailan insisting on fighting in the first lines and two junior Wardens being sent to light the fire.

 

Putting Cailan's death aside, either he was intelligent and wanted to ensure the Wardens' deaths, even if it meant sacrificing the only fortified position between the wilds and the fertile lands of the Bannorn, or he seriously underestimated the Blight's force even after the Wardens' warned them repeatedly, losing half of the army in the process. Either way, it should be considered Loghain's most catastrophic loss. The fact that he had the gall to put the blame of his loss on the Wardens tells me that he wasn't fit to lead the Fereldan army.

[dragonflight288]

What I don't understand is why people say he's a good general and use Ostagar as an example. Am I the only one who remembers that Loghain was actually in charge of planning the entire operation? The only thing that went against plan was Cailan insisting on fighting in the first lines and two junior Wardens being sent to light the fire.

 

Putting Cailan's death aside, either he was intelligent and wanted to ensure the Wardens' deaths, even if it meant sacrificing the only fortified position between the wilds and the fertile lands of the Bannorn, or he seriously underestimated the Blight's force even after the Wardens' warned them repeatedly, losing half of the army in the process. Either way, it should be considered Loghain's most catastrophic loss. The fact that he had the gall to put the blame of his loss on the Wardens tells me that he wasn't fit to lead the Fereldan army.

 

Because a lot of things happened that was near impossible to predict. 

 

Most of the scouts sent out were killed, and those who did make it back talked of a large horde, and many of them, like the one we can talk to, are driven mad by fear or by the taint. 

 

The tower was taken almost as soon as the battle started.

 

Because Cailan chose to charge out of the choke point and allowed himself and his men to get surrounded.

 

The beacon was lit at least an hour late by word of the devs, and Loghain was the one who expected a timeframe for the beacon to get lit.

 

The horde was still pouring out of the wilds at the time the beacon is lit, thus rendering the hammer/anvil strategy pretty useless, and if he had charged all that would've gotten accomplished was Loghain getting himself and his men surrounded as well. 

 

Also, if you listen to rumors from Bodhan or the tavern keepers, Loghain effectively kicks the entire bannorn's collective butt in the civil war as the game progresses. 

[TEWR]

what dragonflight said. I've said it in this thread and the one in the DAO section that rehashing it again is just... tiring. So I'm glad you said it my friend!

 

It's worth noting that if Loghain's aim was to kill the Wardens and/or Cailan, sacrificing the troops under Cailan would've been a ****** way to go about it. Sadly, this was the original idea Bioware had, which shows how little they know of politics or military stuff.

[Mistic]

Because a lot of things happened that was near impossible to predict. 

 

Most of the scouts sent out were killed, and those who did make it back talked of a large horde, and many of them, like the one we can talk to, are driven mad by fear or by the taint. 

 

Exactly. They didn't have all the information and actually both Cailan and Duncan said that it would be better to await Orlesian reinforcements. Loghain protested the "fool notion that we need the Orlesians to defend ourselves". He was wrong. The Wardens did know the real danger. If Loghain didn't believe them, it was his fault and his fault alone. We know that paying attention to the Wardens was the right strategical option in Ostagar.

 

The tower was taken almost as soon as the battle started.

 

True, that and the bacon being lit late wasn't his fault.

 

Because Cailan chose to charge out of the choke point and allowed himself and his men to get surrounded.

 

That looked more like Hollywood tactics to me rather than Cailain's fault. I mean, they even used fire arrows! And that was something prepared beforehand, not just Cailain doing a Leeroy Jenkins.

 

The horde was still pouring out of the wilds at the time the beacon is lit, thus rendering the hammer/anvil strategy pretty useless, and if he had charged all that would've gotten accomplished was Loghain getting himself and his men surrounded as well. 

 

Ah, but as you see, I didn't mention his retreat at all in my criticism. I don't criticize him for saving half of the army, I'm criticizing him for losing the other half. Because you have admitted too that the hammer/anvil strategy was pretty useless. It was his strategy. Because when you are defending a fortified position, there are more options. Longer, more tiresome and less decisive options, but also much safer. Like entrenching yourself and wait for reinforcements. But as Loghain made it very clear, he didn't want Orlesian reinforcements.

 

In fact, I interpreted the whole battle as Loghain wanting to win a decisive victory to show that Ferelden didn't need Orlesian help. It couldn't be Cailan wanting to earn glory, because he was actually the one suggesting to wait for the Orlesians.

 

Also, if you listen to rumors from Bodhan or the tavern keepers, Loghain effectively kicks the entire bannorn's collective butt in the civil war as the game progresses.

 

Half of the Bannorn was already suffering the Blight and the other powers that could stop him were incapacitated (Cousland and Eamon). Meanwhile, the Wardens were already building their own army and no matter what, Loghain losed the civil war.

[TEWR]

Exactly. They didn't have all the information and actually both Cailan and Duncan said that it would be better to await Orlesian reinforcements. Loghain protested the "fool notion that we need the Orlesians to defend ourselves". He was wrong. The Wardens did know the real danger. If Loghain didn't believe them, it was his fault and his fault alone. We know that paying attention to the Wardens was the right strategical option in Ostagar.

 

 

True, that and the bacon being lit late wasn't his fault.

 

 

That looked more like Hollywood tactics to me rather than Cailain's fault. I mean, they even used fire arrows! And that was something prepared beforehand, not just Cailain doing a Leeroy Jenkins.

 

 

Half of the Bannorn was already suffering the Blight and the other powers that could stop him were incapacitated (Cousland and Eamon). Meanwhile, the Wardens were already building their own army and no matter what, Loghain losed the civil war.

 

1) One could argue the Darkspawn wouldn't have waited around and the battle had to happen. One could also argue the best use of the fortress is... holing up inside it. That's the point of a fortress (it's what I advocate, but I still defend Loghain's plan). Of course, with how the tower was taken, they probably still would have been overrun.

 

However, Word of God said that the horde was far larger then anyone (which includes the Wardens. Gaider's wording was very clear in that regard) anticipated. They went into the battle with a rough approximation of the strength of the horde as they'd been getting stronger with each engagement and Loghain devised the strategy based around those reports.

 

2) Mmmm.... bacon.

 

3) You can clearly see Cailan using his greatsword to urge the men to charge out into battle... and Loghain had told Cailan that he would lure the Darkspawn to him. Before Cailan had them charge out into the open and exposed their flanks, the Darkspawn had no qualms about rushing headlong to meet them.

 

As for the fire arrows, they seem to be magically enchanted. Think DAII's elemental weapons effect on a bow, since the bows in the Ostagar scene are glowing in the same way. And against the Darkspawn, I can rationalize it. Fire's effective against them. But Cailan only used one volley of arrows against the horde and had his archers up front where they're more likely to become casualties, and then sent the Mabari hounds out to be little more then fodder.

 

It is indeed Hollywood tactics, but Cailan's shown himself to not care about listening to strategic talks. The man blew them off constantly!

 

4) Actually, what you hear is that the Bannorn were so busy fighting Loghain or each other, without being united, that they'd end up being trounced by him. If in the rare event some of them came together and actually defeated him in a single battle, their forces weren't enough to stand up to the Darkspawn that ended up pouncing on their lands.

 

So they weren't victims to the Blight at the time. They were victims to the Blight after their confrontations with Loghain.

[dragonflight288]

Cailan: Loghain waits eagerly to bore me with his strategies.

 

Duncan: You uncle sends his greetings and says that Redcliff forces can be here in less than a week.

Cailan: Eamon just wants in on the glory. 

 

Cailan: I hoped for a war like in the tales! A king riding with the fabled grey wardens against a tainted god....but I suppose this'll have to do. 

 

 

Cailan clearly was not thinking about strategy and tactics. 

[TK514]

There's also the issue that no one there had any reason to believe the Wardens have special insight into the size of the Darkspawn Horde.  The Wardens keep all their cards so close to the chest they're inside the rib cage.

 

Duncan offered advice, but as far as Cailan and Loghain knew, he was guessing like everyone else.

[Former_Fiend]

Lol yeah i know. No wonder so many girls are sold to slavery in usa in philipines
Theyll support loghain, even if sent assassins against their wardens. I mean when u think theres nothing wrong with someone trying to kill u, there is defo sth wrong with u

 

I think there is a lot wrong with Loghain. That's what I like about him. The fact that he is such a morally flawed and broken character is what fascinates me about him.

[Spicen]

I think there is a lot wrong with Loghain. That's what I like about him. The fact that he is such a morally flawed and broken character is what fascinates me about him.

the wonders of bsn never ceases to amaze me

[Spicen]

There's also the issue that no one there had any reason to believe the Wardens have special insight into the size of the Darkspawn Horde. The Wardens keep all their cards so close to the chest they're inside the rib cage.

Duncan offered advice, but as far as Cailan and Loghain knew, he was guessing like everyone else.

not believing the wardens was loghain's shortcoming. blaming the wardens for the defeat was loghain's death signature

[Ryzaki]

the wonders of bsn never ceases to amaze me

 

? You can acknowledge a character is a douchebag and still find them interesting. That's really the whole reason I play renedouche.

[Milan92]

the wonders of bsn never ceases to amaze me

 

How dare people think a character is awesome because of beign flawed. We should all aspire to loving Mary Sue's.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Before this becomes too much of a widely accepted non-fact: Cailan did NOT charge out of the chokepoint at Ostagar. The Darkspawn army was already in the chokepoint when Cailan ordered the countercharge, and given the ragtag nature of his army (no unified armour or armaments signify an unprofessional army) the chances of his army holding a charge was slim. So in short: Cailan did the right thing. Not that it helped him any.

[Mistic]

Cailan: Loghain waits eagerly to bore me with his strategies.

 

Duncan: You uncle sends his greetings and says that Redcliff forces can be here in less than a week.

Cailan: Eamon just wants in on the glory. 

 

Cailan: I hoped for a war like in the tales! A king riding with the fabled grey wardens against a tainted god....but I suppose this'll have to do. 

 

 

Cailan clearly was not thinking about strategy and tactics.

 

Agreed. It makes even more jarring that his suggestions during the battle debriefing were actually better than Loghain's (except fighting on the front lines; because he still was a Leeroy Jenkins).

 

not believing the wardens was loghain's shortcoming. blaming the wardens for the defeat was loghain's death signature

Exactly. I can forgive him for the first thing. Even the best strategists suffered a terrible loss or two in their careers. However, attempting to put the blame on the Wardens was a horrible move. I mean, how come the Wardens could have led them into a trap if it was his strategy they were following? Putting the blame on the Wardens was admitting that his strategy was a disaster.

 

the wonders of bsn never ceases to amaze me

 

Why? Complex characters have their own appeal. And Loghain, especially after taking the books into account, is complex.

[Myusha123]

I've always found making Alistair hardened and marry Anora, but sparing Loghain was for the best. 

Loghain has flaws. Without a doubt. 

Battle Strategy was entirely questionable even underestimating the horde in all regards though.

Howe picked a relatively bad time to attack to usurp the Couslands. I doubt his military force ever arrived at Ostagar to lend aid. And whether the Cousland forces did either, is something to wonder as well.

The tower was sieged early on so their flank attack would be late to arrive. 
Mabari had much more useful ways to be utilized than just meaningless fodder on the front lines. Seriously. What a damned waste. I mean even if they couldn't find a large use for the Mabari they surely could've realized that what they do was essentially slaughter their canines. They didn't even knock another volley of arrows. 
Archers needed much better leverage and needed to be far more prepared. 

Given they could've fortified themselves at Ostagar and stop the Darkspawn from marching on places like Honnleath or Ostagar?  The fact they could've possibly made killzones in which their archers and soldiers could've taken advantage up? 

Disappointing sadly. I guess Loghain's reputation as a military general, liberator of Ferelden, status as a Teyrn, and intelligence was what bought him time when he blamed the Grey Wardens. Faith is an incredibly thick blindfold sometimes.