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[Former_Fiend]

the wonders of bsn never ceases to amaze me

 

Not to be repetitive, but why is this amazing?

 

I like Loghain because he does stumble. He does make mistakes. And in that light, he's a very human character.

[Medhia_Nox]

It's all Marric the Incompetent's fault anyway (didn't like Maric at all in The Stolen Throne).

 

When Flemeth tells you:  "He'll be betray you, and more than once.  Each time worse than the last." you listen dammit!

[Former_Fiend]

I can't begrudge anyone for not trusting Flemeth.

 

That being said, beyond the more metaphorical, by proxy betrayal of betraying Cailen, did Loghain ever directly betray Maric? I haven't read the Stolen Throne, and I don't recall anything that could be construed as a betrayal in The Calling.

[AshenEndymion]

Agreed. It makes even more jarring that his suggestions during the battle debriefing were actually better than Loghain's (except fighting on the front lines; because he still was a Leeroy Jenkins).

 

Exactly. I can forgive him for the first thing. Even the best strategists suffered a terrible loss or two in their careers. However, attempting to put the blame on the Wardens was a horrible move. I mean, how come the Wardens could have led them into a trap if it was his strategy they were following? Putting the blame on the Wardens was admitting that his strategy was a disaster.

 

Cailan only makes three suggestions.  The first being that he'll fight alongside Duncan.  The second being that they should wait for the Orleasians(not "more troops" in general, but specifically the Orleasians).  And the third being to send two wardens to light the beacon at the Tower of Ishal over the troops in place.  The last suggestion was good, the first was insane, and the second was just something to get Loghain to stop harping about the first suggestion(because if Loghain had countered with "wait for Eamon", Cailan would have brushed it off just as quickly).

 

Loghain didn't give his troops any orders until the beacon was lit, because that was the plan to begin with,  But if the beacon was lit far later than it should have been, and Loghain doesn't know that the tower was overrun, then there are only two legitimate possibilities for why it happened.  Either Cailen signaled the tower late, or the people in charge of lighting the beagon failed in their duties(either deliberatly or through negligence).  So rather than blame the dead king, Loghain chooses to blame the Warden and Alistair for failing to light the beacon.  Publicly, at least.  Privately, Loghain thinks Cailan got himself killed. And he's right.

[TEWR]

I can't begrudge anyone for not trusting Flemeth.

 

That being said, beyond the more metaphorical, by proxy betrayal of betraying Cailen, did Loghain ever directly betray Maric? I haven't read the Stolen Throne, and I don't recall anything that could be construed as a betrayal in The Calling.

 

He and Rowan both knew that Katriel had turned against the Orlesians, yet Loghain decided that Maric needed to kill her for her part in helping Orlais originally (the battle of West Hill, which nearly decimated the army, was due in part to Katriel). At the time, Maric was emotionally frantic trying to take in the news that she was originally an Orlesian spy, and ended up running her through in vengeance. And Loghain seems to think that was justice and doesn't feel any guilt over the deed.

 

That's the only thing I'd constitute as a betrayal of Maric.

 

The Stolen Throne Loghain is actually a character I can't stand because of that moment. I think Stolen Throne is a horrible book in general because it's not very good in terms of warfare depiction, but beyond that I also kinda think how the belligerent sexual tension between Rowan and Loghain was done was kinda... meh.

[b09boy]

What I don't understand is why some people say he's a good general. Am I the only one who remembers that Loghain was actually in charge of planning the entire operation at Ostagar?

 

Do you also remember the bit about him having won multiple battles at Ostagar long before you ever arrive?  Loghain's been at it quite awhile down there and while he's getting chipped away at, somehow the horde is only growing.

 

Exactly. They didn't have all the information and actually both Cailan and Duncan said that it would be better to await Orlesian reinforcements. 

 

Wait for Orlesian reinforcements to do what, exactly?  Help defend Ostagar?  The horde isn't waiting for weeks on end to attack when it's most convenient for everybody.  They're doing so right now.  Cailan just want to ride out with this big, bulky army while Duncan is thinking more along the lines of long term, in the counter attack necessary to defeat the archdemon...something nobody but him thinks exists (and why should they?).  It's also not like he's ignorant to the need for reinforcements, but I really shouldn't have to explain all the ways bringing in Orlesian troops is a horrible idea.

 

As to losing half the army, I don't think it was anything close to that amount.  Loghain's reinforcement army actually looked pretty massive by comparison.  From the looks of it, the army lost was made primarily of Wardens and the king's select camp who stayed with the king, with a few of Loghain's men in the tower.  To him, that's not much a loss.  You have the Wardens, who are being rather secretive and have no real allegiance to him, and Cailan's band of indoctrinated fools led by an idiot.

[BlazingSpeed]

Really?  I always just assumed everyone who supported Ander's actions supported the real life bombings of religious churches.

 

I could not help but imagine Iorveth's VA speaking your post...

 

On topic a Warden Loghain cameo would be nice,

[dragonflight288]

Do you also remember the bit about him having won multiple battles at Ostagar long before you ever arrive?  Loghain's been at it quite awhile down there and while he's getting chipped away at, somehow the horde is only growing.

 

 

Wait for Orlesian reinforcements to do what, exactly?  Help defend Ostagar?  The horde isn't waiting for weeks on end to attack when it's most convenient for everybody.  They're doing so right now.  Cailan just want to ride out with this big, bulky army while Duncan is thinking more along the lines of long term, in the counter attack necessary to defeat the archdemon...something nobody but him thinks exists (and why should they?).  It's also not like he's ignorant to the need for reinforcements, but I really shouldn't have to explain all the ways bringing in Orlesian troops is a horrible idea.

 

As to losing half the army, I don't think it was anything close to that amount.  Loghain's reinforcement army actually looked pretty massive by comparison.  From the looks of it, the army lost was made primarily of Wardens and the king's select camp who stayed with the king, with a few of Loghain's men in the tower.  To him, that's not much a loss.  You have the Wardens, who are being rather secretive and have no real allegiance to him, and Cailan's band of indoctrinated fools led by an idiot.

 

Just want to point out something since I recently replayed Ostagar. 

 

I asked Daveth when I first met him why the army was camped at Ostagar. He specifically says that the horde is deep within the wilds, and they placed the army closer to the horde as a way to draw them out, using the metaphor "meat in front of the bear." 

 

They chose Ostagar because it was defensible, but also because it was close enough to the darkspawn to draw their attention. 

 

It's true that the darkspawn wouldn't wait for them, it's also true that the possibility that the horde would wander around the wilds or even head into the uncharted south if they hadn't been drawn. 

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but there was some calculation on drawing the Horde to them, and that probably could've waited for reinforcements, like from Redcliff, as Duncan reminds Cailan when we first arrive. 

[LordJeyl]

Is it wrong when I say that I would sooner forgive Loghain than Anders?

[dragonflight288]

Is it wrong when I say that I would sooner forgive Loghain than Anders?

 

Not necessarily. You are free to like and hate characters at your whim. 

 

In the end, both Anders and Loghain are fictional characters in a video game, and the things they did never actually happened outside of the game, but their actions in the game can resonate with the players. Sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad. 

 

Every gamer is different and comes in with a different perspective and outlook. 

[HiroVoid]

Is it wrong when I say that I would sooner forgive Loghain than Anders?

Well, Loghain sold elves into slavery, and Anders was happy to see an elf put into slavery.

[Former_Fiend]

Losing one battle doesn't make him a poor general.

 

I like to think of Loghain as a deconstruction of a Mary Tzu. Fiction has conditioned us to think of great generals in unrealistic terms. Loghain is an excellent tactician and strategist on the battlefield, but he's still bound by realistic limitations; limited resources, incomplete intel, a glory hound commanding officer, a largely undisciplined fighting force, and an enemy with vastly superior numbers and weapons that he can't defend against - the taint, their tunneling abilities, and sheer terror.

 

This is in addition to his abysmal grasp of politics and sheer rotten luck.

[Sifr]

 

As to losing half the army, I don't think it was anything close to that amount.  Loghain's reinforcement army actually looked pretty massive by comparison.  From the looks of it, the army lost was made primarily of Wardens and the king's select camp who stayed with the king, with a few of Loghain's men in the tower.  To him, that's not much a loss.  You have the Wardens, who are being rather secretive and have no real allegiance to him, and Cailan's band of indoctrinated fools led by an idiot.

 

I suspect that you're right.

 

As far as anyone (besides the Grey Wardens) is aware, the Darkspawn horde isn't currently being lead by an Archdemon, so they're simply mindless monsters acting on "Kill everything" mode, rather than working as a cohesive and tactical force. The idea of luring them out with a token force on the field makes a lot of sense, because they're banking on them rushing Cailan's forces like a shark smelling blood in the water. Then, when the horde has stopped advancing, Loghain and the rest of the army will flank them from the rear, cuting off the Darkspawn's retreat and allowing them to surround the Darkspawn.

 

It was actually a rather good plan, but the only problem was Cailan's overconfidence in not waiting for even more forces to arrive before setting the trap, as well as Loghain's decision to quit the field at the crucial moment he should have charged.

 

Furthermore, it's implied from the jailed deserter in Origins and from Carver (and possibly Hawke) in DA2, that many of Cailan's forces that fought on the ground with him were not actually seasoned soldiers, but common people from villagers or towns that signed up specifically to fight at Ostagar.

 

From Loghain's point of view, his army of trained soldiers was probably more valuable to keep safe than a group of farmers, many of whom joined the army for the coin and didn't expect they'd actually have to fight an army of blighted monsters that hadn't been seen for centuries?

[Spicen]

It was actually a rather good plan, but the only problem was Cailan's overconfidence in not waiting for even more forces to arrive before setting the trap, as well as Loghain's decision to quit the field at the crucial moment he should charged.

Double post

[Spicen]

It was actually a rather good plan, but the only problem was Cailan's overconfidence in not waiting for even more forces to arrive before setting the trap, as well as Loghain's decision to quit the field at the crucial moment he should charged.

Cailan: Maybe we should wait for the orlesian forces to join us.
Loghain: I must repeat to your fool notion that we need the orlesians to defend ourselves.
It seems that Cailan was not the only man who was a complete idiot and over confident.
Plus, i think they would have lost the battle anyway. I think that the drakspawn previously fought small skirmishes to see the human strategy. This time it was full force of the horde.

[LPPrince]

Do I want Loghain in Inquisition? Absolutely.

 

He's alive in my DAO save, and I will absolutely check mark him as surviving the events of DAO in the DA Keep.

 

Even the smallest mention of Loghain would be great;actually seeing him again would be stellar(hoping he looks appropriate for the character and close enough that I'll recognize him, given the change of engines).

[Sifr]

Cailan: Maybe we should wait for the orlesian forces to join us.
Loghain: I must repeat to your fool notion that we need the orlesians to defend ourselves.
It seems that Cailan was not the only man who was a complete idiot and over confident.
Plus, i think they would have lost the battle anyway. I think that the drakspawn previously fought small skirmishes to see the human strategy. This time it was full force of the horde.

 

Except that the Orlesians weren't the only ones who hadn't shown up before Cailan wanted to start the battle.

 

Duncan mentions that the forces from Redcliffe had not yet arrived and we know from the Human Noble Origin (which happens regardless of if you take that Origin) that only half the Highever forces went ahead with Fergus Cousland, while the rest remained to escort Teyrn Cousland and presumably ended up massacred by Howe's men.

 

Cailan still jumped the gun before they were fully ready.

[Spicen]

Cailan only suggested to wait for the Orlesian forces to push Loghain's buttons because he wanted to fight on the front lines... like an idiot... after Loghain protested several times. It's the equivalent of a two year old throwing a tantrum when they don't get what they want.

Not my point. My point is Loghain was every bit as idiot, short sighted and overconfident as Cailan was. Thing is Loghain is 100 times more paranoid than cailan. I dont know if thats good or bad.

[Spicen]

Except that the Orlesians weren't the only ones who hadn't shown up before Cailan wanted to start the battle.

Duncan mentions that the forces from Redcliffe had not yet arrived and we know from the Human Noble Origin (which happens regardless of if you take that Origin) that only half the Highever forces went ahead with Fergus Cousland, while the rest remained to escort Teyrn Cousland and presumably ended up massacred by Howe's men.

Cailan still jumped the gun before they were fully ready.

But what wrong did he do about this anyway. The darkspawn would have attacked them anyway.

[LPPrince]

Given Loghain was proven right about Orlais, his paranoia was spot on and appropriate.

 

Dude was just unfortunate with the series of events around him, with Cailan acting like he did, the banns, Howe, etc etc along with his questionable decision making at times.

 

Not saying Loghain is completely clean;he most certainly isn't, but damn did stuff fall apart around him.

 

It was awesome being able to talk to him about it after being recruited, and to talk to him again in DA:Awakening.

 

His Awakening dialogue is what makes me hope he's in Inquisition in more than just a passing role.

 

[Milan92]

Loghain's dialogues; after you recruit him are some of my favorites.

 

His Awakening cameo was great as well. Him beign the father in-law of the Cousland Warden who marries Anora is just priceless.

 

He gained an outlaw for an in-law

[Master Warder Z_]

Loghain's dialogues; after you recruit him are some of my favorites.

 

His Awakening cameo was great as well. Him beign the father in-law of the Cousland Warden who marries Anora is just priceless.

 

He gained an outlaw for an in-law

 

And he was like "i expect grand children by the way"

 

I was like *chokes on laughter*

[Urazz]

Given Loghain was proven right about Orlais, his paranoia was spot on and appropriate.

He was both right and wrong about Orlais in DAO.  Celene did not want to  conquer Fereldan with brute force again like Loghain thought she was planning but she did want to get Fereldan back under Orlesian control with a more diplomatic/passive method.  If anything, i think Loghain should have been regretting supporting Cailan being king of Fereldan and instead should have put his support towards Bryce Cousland.  Bryce may be more friendly to Orlais than Loghain would like but he wouldn't have had to deal with the stupid things Cailan did I think.

[Sifr]

But what wrong did he do about this anyway. The darkspawn would have attacked them anyway.

 

By ignoring advice to delay the battle until they were ready, they lured the horde to them when they weren't strong enough to handle them.

 

From the Darkspawn parties encountered in the Wilds, it's implied that the Archdemon was scouting and testing their defences, as we hear about them having minor clashes several times before we've arrived. It's behaviour later in the game by tricking Riordan to thinking the horde will attack Redcliffe, when it's just a feint to attack Denerim, suggests that the Archdemon is a rather tactical player. When Riordan manages to wound it's wing during the Battle of Denerim, it decides to head to the top of Fort Drakon, highest part of the city to force the Warden and Denerim troops to fight their way up to it. Again, this suggests a level of cunning and intelligent thought.

 

Another bit of food for thought is from RtO, where we learn that after the Darkspawn found Cailan's body, rather than feast on or defile it, they instead carried it from the foot of Ostagar, all the way up to the top of the battlements to erect it in a mocking effigy. Why did they do so? Because they, or more likely the Archdemon, knew that if anyone came back to Ostagar after the horde had moved on, they'd be demoralised to see their King's corpse profaned in such a manner.

 

While that supposes a lot about the Archdemon's thought processes, it makes sense that by putting obvious bait on the ground, when there aren't enough men to spring the trap or provide a retreat if the plan fails, Cailan basically offered his unit up on a plate and the Darkspawn took advantage of their lack of preparation.

 

 

If anything, i think Loghain should have been regretting supporting Cailan being king of Fereldan and instead should have put his support towards Bryce Cousland.  Bryce may be more friendly to Orlais than Loghain would like but he wouldn't have had to deal with the stupid things Cailan did I think.

 

Seconded. Bryce might have more friendly ties to Orlais, but he still fought them during the Rebellion and likely knows that when it comes to Orlais, it's better to offer one hand and arm the other. Cailan grew up in a free Ferelden, so all he sees is the pomp and circumstance that the Orlesians like to project, rather than when they installed a tinpot dictator to govern Ferelden and use Chevalier's as his iron fist.