687 réponses à ce sujet

[Spicen]

Doesn't matter. If Loghain would have followed Cailan's plan (to which he objected twice) Ferelden would have fallen one way or another. Loghain's retreat was strategically sound. It's everything he does after that comes into question.

loghain's retreat risked allout civil war withot thw warden. it would hav given the orlesian a nice opening to penetrate

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Know what's funny? Despite all his raving lunacy during the events of DA:O, Loghain was right about Orlais all along. At least people who spared him (like myself) will get to see him do some awesome Grey Wardening.

 

When I read in TME about Gaspard and his behaviour towards Bann Teagan it really became clear once more how rotten and imperialistic those Orlesians truly are. He was just angling for a new justification for war. Loghain was right to be so paranoid and defensive.

[addiction21]

Oh look another one of these threads...

 

As for those drooling over Loghain his story is done and the best you will get is a tiny little cameo,

[BlazingSpeed]

Lots of people say that and I can understand it from a player perspective, but what about from a character perspective? Why would the Inquisitor want to kill one of his/her advisors?

 

Because of that demo reel scene where she kills Alexius' son without the inquisitor's say so?

[teenparty]

Cool. Cailan was an idiot who committed suicide by glory. The Pyrrhic victory that he wanted would have left Ferelden open to Orlesian invasion not to mention that Ostagar was a feint by the Archdemon to weaken Ferelden's military.   

 

1) Loghain did not have time to secure Ferelden's borders against an attack from Orlais. I see no reason to believe the Orlesian reinforcements would have made an attack Ferelden if they had been allowed into the country.

 

2) I do not believe the Archdemon was capable of tactics.

 

3) Ostagar was a great fortress. Much more defendeble than Denerim.

[cjones91]

The Orlesians are infamous for offering 'assistance' during Blights, and then never leaving. Four legions of Chevalier were accompanying the Warden contingent from Orlais.

 

You're wrong. Darkspawn Chronicles proves that. Riordan's dialogue confirms it.

 

I agree that Ostagar was defensible. But the battle would have been lost, or at it's very best victory would have been Pyrrhic. Darkspawn were 10,000 deep.

Yep,as horrible as Loghain's actions after the fact he made a wise one by pulling out of Ostagar.

[Hazegurl]

Loghain was right to leave Ostagar. I hated him for it at first but seeing that pic of how far the horde was seen from up high pretty much sealed it for me. Going down there was suicide. Calian not wanting to wait for reinforcements was also telling of their fate. Duncan seemed like a good guy but him standing back and allowing the King to do whatever he wanted resulted in his own death. 

[cjones91]

Loghain was right to leave Ostagar. I hated him for it at first but seeing that pic of how far the horde was seen from up high pretty much sealed it for me. Going down there was suicide. Calian not wanting to wait for reinforcements was also telling of their fate. Duncan seemed like a good guy but him standing back and allowing the King to do whatever he wanted resulted in his own death. 

To be fair Duncan had planned on abandoning Fereldan to the Blight and regroup with the Wardens in Orlais if Ostagar went FUBAR.He just did'nt live to see it through.

[Dabrikishaw]

If that happens, yes. Some people just want to kill her because she annoyed them in Origins, but the Inquisitor doesn't even know her yet. It's just from a RP perspective I find it odd.

Not everyone will use a roleplaying perspective when deciding to kill a companion, myself included.

[Lavaeolus]

Leliana's death came as the result of both being someone who would defile the ashes and someone who would even bring Leliana along, and she's also a major companion and LI . Loghain's execution/recruitment was a major decision, has a less universal outcome in most playthroughs, and if spared came at the cost of another party member. For these reasons, he's probably not going to be retconned back to life.

 

Though Zombie Loghain, admittedly, would be a sight to see.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

In Awakening Loghain did say he's going to Orlais. Chances are solid we get to see him there.

[Former_Fiend]

And word was his VA, Simon Templeman, was doing some more voice work for Bioware a couple months ago.

 

Though Templeman's one of their go-to guys, having done voices in Jade Empire and the Mass Effect series, so it's possible he was working on another project.

[Master Warder Z_]

I do hope he makes a Cameo appearance, maybe small bit more then given the Gray Warden connection, but honestly i don't expect much.

[Aimi]

If Loghain hadn't retreated there would have been no army left to fight anyone. Get it?

Wouldn't there?

Retreating opened up the entirety of Ferelden to the ravages of the Blight, damaged the tax base, fractured the regime's supporters, and got a lot of people killed. Retreating also sacrificed positional advantage (the operational bottleneck and tactical fortifications of Ostagar) and soldiers (the troops with the king).

Pulling back only makes sense if Loghain expects some other advantage to accrue over the darkspawn to make up for all of these very severe disadvantages. He'd have to expect more troops from somewhere, but where? His political enemies like Eamon? Foreign powers? I don't really buy it. Unless more troops were readily at hand, and unless the Blight were counterattacked immediately and in full force with these additional troops, Loghain would have zero logical grounds for retreating from Ostagar. Saving a piece of the army just so it can be destroyed later is not a good reason to write the rest of the army off.

This is especially relevant because there is no possible way to have known whether the Fereldan army would have won or lost the battle (had the entire army actually fought) without fighting the battle that way. Loghain couldn't even see the battlefield, and even if he could there's no way to tell. Field battles are a lottery, not discretely predictable events. Even modern observers have trouble predicting wars with the vast amounts of information, history, and theory available to them; Loghain had none of that.

This in fact argues that if Loghain's action was not just a naked power grab and if he felt like it was necessary to retreat to win later, that decision was made not on rational grounds, but on emotional ones. He left Ostagar because he wasn't feeling good about the prospects of battle there. Historical generals, even the good ones, did things like that all the time; in the American Civil War, the Confederate general Lee chose to stay and fight at Gettysburg out of a feeling that it was a good idea as much as any rational appreciation of the facts. But let's be clear that it was intuition that Loghain would've been operating on here, not ratiocination.

Even ignoring that, though, Loghain's decision was wrong because he tried to kill all the Grey Wardens, and you can't stop a Blight without Wardens.

One might point out that Loghain might have been acting out of a lack of information in many cases. He might not have known that only Wardens could stop a Blight, or perhaps he didn't believe that the darkspawn were a "true" Blight. He might not have known that his decision to abandon the king and his men would spark a civil war, which would erode his sources of manpower. But if he did not know these things, then it still does not speak well of his judgment. Whether he was wrong out of a lack of information or wrong because his instincts were bad or wrong because he was a power-hungry warlord who let his lust for the throne overpower any military sense that he possessed...he was still wrong.

[EmperorKarino]

Cool. Cailan was an idiot who committed suicide by glory. The Pyrrhic victory that he wanted would have left Ferelden open to Orlesian invasion not to mention that Ostagar was a feint by the Archdemon to weaken Ferelden's military.   

 

where do you get this feint info from?

[Spicen]

If Loghain hadn't retreated there would have been no army left to fight anyone. Get it?

oh yeah..... did u ever play human noble?Not all the teryns went to the war with full force. Loghain had the largest army but the other nobles notabbly arl eamon's one still packed a bit of punch. Orlais is a super power, if they wanted fereldan destroyed they would do it.

[Spicen]

Yep,as horrible as Loghain's actions after the fact he made a wise one by pulling out of Ostagar.

did he now? then he shudnt have claimed regency. he was prepared to break the country in half

[Spicen]

To be fair Duncan had planned on abandoning Fereldan to the Blight and regroup with the Wardens in Orlais if Ostagar went FUBAR.He just did'nt live to see it through.

and where did u learn that from?
infact he constantly told the warden that he can sense the archdemon and that cailan was over confident. He knew that army at ostagar may not have been enough, (remember the intro?)thats why he sent the warden for the treaty. He was a legendary gw. U shud support him, not that war criminal.

[Spicen]

where do you get this feint info from?

People like traitors and mass murderers. some people make sth up to justify it.

[EmperorKarino]

People like traitors and mass murderers. some people make sth up to justify it.

 

i thought so. i've seen/had enough arguements about the battle of ostagar that there is no info proving that ferelden would have lost against the darkspawn if loghain didn't betray Cailan

[Spicen]

Loghain was right to leave Ostagar. I hated him for it at first but seeing that pic of how far the horde was seen from up high pretty much sealed it for me. Going down there was suicide. Calian not wanting to wait for reinforcements was also telling of their fate. Duncan seemed like a good guy but him standing back and allowing the King to do whatever he wanted resulted in his own death.

did u even hear duncan? he said that cailan was one of the few allies the gws had. He trusted Loghain with his life nnd got betrayed badly. We'll see ur analysis if someone u trusted like that betrayed u.

[Lavaeolus]

i thought so. i've seen/had enough arguements about the battle of ostagar that there is no info proving that ferelden would have lost against the darkspawn if loghain didn't betray Cailan

 

Cailan's honour guard, of all people, says Cailan knew the battle would be lost (start of Return to Ostagar). When both the king and the general who managed to kick Orlais out are pretty sure a battle is lost, it probably is so. Everyone at Ostagar is positive because the higher-ups are not going to eff up morale by saying "yeah, chances are we'll lose". Regardless of whether it was actually possible, Loghain very clearly seems to think rescuing Cailan would've been impossible, even once recruited when all pretense is dropped.

 

Mind you, I've always felt Ostagar was a bit inconsistently written. To be expected I guess, once you hear of some of the plots that were originally in the game.

[cjones91]

and where did u learn that from?
infact he constantly told the warden that he can sense the archdemon and that cailan was over confident. He knew that army at ostagar may not have been enough, (remember the intro?)thats why he sent the warden for the treaty. He was a legendary gw. U shud support him, not that war criminal.

I believe one of the writers said that Duncan would've pulled all of the Fereldan Wardens out if he had lived through Ostagar.And I happen to like both Duncan and Loghain btw.