687 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

She still loves him doe

 

XD she does.

 

Dat lvl 4 persuasion.

[Former_Fiend]

I know everyone who recruited Loghain didn't execute Alistair. I'm saying he tells you several times that he sees recruiting Loghain as a betrayal and he will leave if you do so. (hell I think he even goes me or him). You can say it's for all the help you need but when he just said he'd leave if you do it...and you pick Loghain anyway...

 

I mean there are several other people the warden could've recruited (granted you're not allowed to do this obvious as hell thing) that aren't Loghain.

 

Ok, I lied, I'm back, but just for this post.

 

Alistair is nothing but a weaker version of my Warden. He's a good friend, true, but he only tells me what I'm already thinking and doesn't have the stomach for the hard choices when the time comes.

 

Loghain is very different from my Warden. He's going to give me a different perspective. He's going to help me see a side of things I may not have considered otherwise. And where as Alistair's really only good for his personal skill at arms and templar abilities, Loghain is both a skilled warrior as well as a tactician and strategist. And unlike Alistair, Loghain is willing to do almost anything to accomplish the mission.

 

Loghain's a more valuable asset to me than Alistair is. That's the cold, hard truth of it.

 

Besides, I usually make Alistair king when I recruit Loghain. I assume that while he may not be in the mood to give any rousing speeches on my behalf after the Landsmeet, he's still participating in the battle. So I really don't lose anything in that scenario. 

[Spicen]

Ok, I lied, I'm back, but just for this post.

Alistair is nothing but a weaker version of my Warden. He's a good friend, true, but he only tells me what I'm already thinking and doesn't have the stomach for the hard choices when the time comes.

Loghain is very different from my Warden. He's going to give me a different perspective. He's going to help me see a side of things I may not have considered otherwise. And where as Alistair's really only good for his personal skill at arms and templar abilities, Loghain is both a skilled warrior as well as a tactician and strategist. And unlike Alistair, Loghain is willing to do almost anything to accomplish the mission.

Loghain's a more valuable asset to me than Alistair is. That's the cold, hard truth of it.

Besides, I usually make Alistair king when I recruit Loghain. I assume that while he may not be in the mood to give any rousing speeches on my behalf after the Landsmeet, he's still participating in the battle. So I really don't lose anything in that scenario.

ah, you're back. wondered where you disappeared.
i guess here is where the difference lies, i wud never fathom exchanging my most loyal comp. for loghain. just not in my character. i like to have trusty guys like alistair around me.

And how on earth do you make alistair king and also recruit loghain. I tried to do that in my mr. goody two shoes play through but its not possible. Is it a mod glitch?

[Former_Fiend]

ah, you're back. wondered where you disappeared.
i guess here is where the difference lies, i wud never fathom exchanging my most loyal comp. for loghain. just not in my character. i like to have trusty guys like alistair around me.

And how on earth do you make alistair king and also recruit loghain. I tried to do that in my mr. goody two shoes play through but its not possible. Is it a mod glitch?

 

Harden Alistair and marry him to Anora. Don't let him duel Loghain. He grudgingly accepts letting Loghain live once you decide to spare him after a little convincing, but is absolutely pissed at you.

[Spicen]

Ok, I lied, I'm back, but just for this post.

Alistair is nothing but a weaker version of my Warden.

Not unless you use health poultices

[Spicen]

Harden Alistair and marry him to Anora. Don't let him duel Loghain. He grudgingly accepts letting Loghain live once you decide to spare him after a little convincing, but is absolutely pissed at you.

Wont happen in my canon but i cud try it in one playthrough.

[Former_Fiend]

Not unless you use health poultices

 

He's weaker in terms of personality. He's not as smart as my warden. He's not as willful or decisive as my warden. He's a follower. Beta personality. 

 

He has a lot of the same ideas; my warden was a rather heroic character, all things told. Saved Redcliffe, went to the circle to save both Conner and Isolde, saved the mages, cured the werewolves, destroyed the anvil, didn't deal with the dragon cult. Only questionable thing he did was put Bhelen on the throne because he felt he needed a strong leader. And he worked with the Antivan Crows to undermine Loghain.

 

Most everything he did are things Alistair supports, but he didn't need Alistair to tell him that. Alistair doesn't offer my warden a perspective he doesn't already have, and that's a valuable thing. When looking for a partner, you shouldn't look for a weaker version of yourself. You should look for someone who's strengths compliment your own, and compensate for your weaknesses. 

 

Loghain is a better partner for my Warden than Alistair is. And at the end of the day, however much it may pain his detractors, Loghain is an extremely loyal companion once recruited.

[Ryzaki]

Ok, I lied, I'm back, but just for this post.

 

Alistair is nothing but a weaker version of my Warden. He's a good friend, true, but he only tells me what I'm already thinking and doesn't have the stomach for the hard choices when the time comes.

 

Loghain is very different from my Warden. He's going to give me a different perspective. He's going to help me see a side of things I may not have considered otherwise. And where as Alistair's really only good for his personal skill at arms and templar abilities, Loghain is both a skilled warrior as well as a tactician and strategist. And unlike Alistair, Loghain is willing to do almost anything to accomplish the mission.

 

Loghain's a more valuable asset to me than Alistair is. That's the cold, hard truth of it.

 

Besides, I usually make Alistair king when I recruit Loghain. I assume that while he may not be in the mood to give any rousing speeches on my behalf after the Landsmeet, he's still participating in the battle. So I really don't lose anything in that scenario. 

 

Which is fine for your Warden. I have plenty of wardens that think similarly to Alistair and I have others that believe differently (mainly my non humans). As for hard choices yeah that's true but that doesn't stop him from staying at your side even when doing so completely disgusts him.

 

This all comes down to one thing.

 

Loghain might not survive the joining. Indeed from the warden's experiences he has a 2/3 chances of dying. Riordan flat out tells you there's a compelling reason for as many wardens as possible.

 

You are allowing someone that's already a warden to walk away to gamble on someone who might die and even in the best scenario has you right back where you started in regards to numbers.

 

Also Loghain is a skilled warrior? So is Alistair. He also has the benefit of being in the prime of his life and in tip top fighting form along with you and your PC having a year to get used to fighting side by side in combat. You know his weaknesses, you know his strengths and vice versa. There aren't any guessing games.

 

As for perspective you are about to charge the archedemon what good is Loghain's perspective going to do you at that point in time? Hell Alistair has more experience fighting darkspawn than he does! And Riordan would be a far better source of advice than both of them. "He (Loghain) thinks the blight is some army he can outmaneuver." Loghain is shown constantly failing against the darkspawn. I dont know about you but I'm going with the organization that's whole job is to fight the darkspawn over Loghain who's only claim to fame on the darkspawn front that my PC knows about is Ostagar where he doesn't even have the balls to own up to his error. Even if you disregard the time Alistair spent with the warden.  Also Alistair having one line he won't cross yeah that happens. You think Loghain would've happily followed you if the PC had slit Anora's throat? Come on now.

 

Oh yeah that I can understand. You still have Alistair as backup even if he's not on the frontlines. I'm mainly talking about people who let him get exiled/kill him. If you leave Alistair as king you do end up with the maximum amount of wardens (even if Alistair refuses to fight along side with you as a backup). Really Hardened Alistair as king with Anora and feeding Loghain to archie is my golden ending. I said this was understandable in an later/earlier post.

 

That said it's still ridiculous to pick Loghain and then complain about Alistair ditching you using the "we needed more wardens." excuse. That's my main issue with it.

 

You value Loghain over Alistair perfectly fine just don't be surprised when Alistair turns around and values himself more than you.

[Ryzaki]

He's weaker in terms of personality. He's not as smart as my warden. He's not as willful or decisive as my warden. He's a follower. Beta personality. 

 

He has a lot of the same ideas; my warden was a rather heroic character, all things told. Saved Redcliffe, went to the circle to save both Conner and Isolde, saved the mages, cured the werewolves, destroyed the anvil, didn't deal with the dragon cult. Only questionable thing he did was put Bhelen on the throne because he felt he needed a strong leader. And he worked with the Antivan Crows to undermine Loghain.

 

Most everything he did are things Alistair supports, but he didn't need Alistair to tell him that. Alistair doesn't offer my warden a perspective he doesn't already have, and that's a valuable thing. When looking for a partner, you shouldn't look for a weaker version of yourself. You should look for someone who's strengths compliment your own, and compensate for your weaknesses. 

 

Loghain is a better partner for my Warden than Alistair is. And at the end of the day, however much it may pain his detractors, Loghain is an extremely loyal companion once recruited.

 

I guess we simply have different personalities we prefer XD my wardens had no issue with beta personalities. Alistair was quite willing to say when he disagreed with something so *shrug* as for the heroic type yeah I play douchebags/morally questionable people a lot heroic gets...boring really quick (helpfuly/nice Hawke made me wanna throw him out a window after my first playthrough and I can't play a pure paragon playthrough *shudders*). So as far as my warden was concerned he was a nice counterpart.

 

But you're acting like Loghain had a chance to disagree with the PC on those things. Also what were the rest of the companions doing? Twiddling their thumbs? Must all the companions have completely different ideals from you? Was that a flaw with Leliana as well?

 

Also people have different preferences in a partner. And complimenting strengths and weaknesses could mean various things.

 

Which is fair. I never said he wasn't loyal once recruited though. I just felt his recruit period was stupid as hell when there's several other people who could've been recruited in his stead without the unnecessary dramafest.

[Former_Fiend]

From an in character perspective you don't know that you're rushing into the final battle as soon as the Landsmeet is done. And even then, I save as much as I can(Warden's Keep, Return to Ostagar, and killing Flemeth) for after the Landsmeet so I have Loghain with me. 

 

As for risking Alistair leaving on the chance that Loghain might not survive his joining, I imagine my warden could probably talk him into coming back if Loghain died. Mentioning how choking on darkspawn blood is a much less pleasant way to go than beheading would help.

 

But at the end of the day I simply refuse to accept responsibility for Alistair's rage quit. He wants to walk, that's on him.

 

And look, I'm not trying to convince anyone to spare Loghain. I'm not even trying to convince anyone who doesn't like Loghain to like him. There are a plethora of perfectly valid reasons not to like him. If you don't like him, that's fine. Don't like him, don't spare him. That's all fine.

 

But what I am absolutely goddamn tired of is people questioning, belittling, and insulting my decision to spare him and my personal appreciation for the character.

[Ryzaki]

From an in character perspective you don't know that you're rushing into the final battle as soon as the Landsmeet is done. And even then, I save as much as I can(Warden's Keep, Return to Ostagar, and killing Flemeth) for after the Landsmeet so I have Loghain with me. 

 

As for risking Alistair leaving on the chance that Loghain might not survive his joining, I imagine my warden could probably talk him into coming back if Loghain died. Mentioning how choking on darkspawn blood is a much less pleasant way to go than beheading would help.

 

But at the end of the day I simply refuse to accept responsibility for Alistair's rage quit. He wants to walk, that's on him.

 

And look, I'm not trying to convince anyone to spare Loghain. I'm not even trying to convince anyone who doesn't like Loghain to like him. There are a plethora of perfectly valid reasons not to like him. If you don't like him, that's fine. Don't like him, don't spare him. That's all fine.

 

But what I am absolutely goddamn tired of is people questioning, belittling, and insulting my decision to spare him and my personal appreciation for the character.

 

True.

 

??? Don't they pretty much say they're marching to redcliffe right after the landsmeet? Storywise I'm pretty sure you're supposed to go there immediately.

 

Maybe if he's king not sure how the Exile would work other than Anora backing out on her explusion of him less than five minutes later.

 

*shrug* If someone tells you they're going to leave if you do something...and you do it...and they leave  I'm not sure how part of the blame isn't partly on your shoulders. For right or wrong.

 

Well I'm pretty tired of the "I got betrayed" complaints myself. And devaluing a character that stays by your side through the beginning of a game cause he dares to walk out after several warnings that he was going to do so for you recruiting someone who attempts to kill you several times. Somehow I'll live.

[Milan92]

Meh. Alistair is a damn man-child. Marrying Anora can only do him good. If it meant stopping the Blight my Warden would've gritted his teeth and recruited Howe. So Alistair's female mabari fit doesn't sway me.

 

Forcing Howe to become a Grey Warden?

 

Ha! Yes please!

[Ryzaki]

Meh. Alistair is a damn man-child. Marrying Anora can only do him good. If it meant stopping the Blight my Warden would've gritted his teeth and recruited Howe. So Alistair's female mabari fit doesn't sway me.

 

Oh hell no. Howe could've had the secrets to immortality and my warden would've still killed him XD

 

Oren

 

But I mainly play HNs and CEs so...yeah Loghain and Howe are just nope. CEs get few enough revenge as it is.

 

I guess if I played dwarves and dalish I'd feel differently but I don't. And my HN was really close to their families and they tended to be the more hotheaded type (my female) or suicidal rage (my male).

 

I guess my mages would spare Loghain except they're usually too used to Alistair tanking while they hide behind him so yeah XD

[Former_Fiend]

True.

 

??? Don't they pretty much say they're marching to redcliffe right after the landsmeet? Storywise I'm pretty sure you're supposed to go there immediately.

 

Maybe if he's king not sure how the Exile would work other than Anora backing out on her explusion of him less than five minutes later.

 

*shrug* If someone tells you they're going to leave if you do something...and you do it...and they leave  I'm not sure how part of the blame isn't partly on your shoulders. For right or wrong.

 

Well I'm pretty tired of the "I got betrayed" complaints myself. And devaluing a character that stays by your side through the beginning of a game cause he dares to walk out after several warnings that he was going to do so for you recruiting someone who attempts to kill you several times. Somehow I'll live.

 

While I've called Alistair walking out a betrayal before, I do understand it. If he can't stand to be a part of the same group as the man he blames for the death of the people he cared about most, I can't say that's not reasonable. 

 

But the fact is I don't play ball with ultimatums. Alistair's decision to walk is his own.

 

 

Oh hell no. Howe could've had the secrets to immortality and my warden would've still killed him XD

 

Oren

 

Fun fact; Alistair keeps Howe alive in the Darkspawn Chronicles DLC.  That he doesn't seem to have a problem pardoning people who've committed atrocities so long as those atrocities haven't directly impacted him makes letting him leave easier.

[Ryzaki]

" ...a Grey Warden's duty comes even before vengeance. "

 

Considering my HN had to be conscripted s/he doesn't give a damn about the warden's motto and Duncan in particular can die in a damn fire.

[Ryzaki]

While I've called Alistair walking out a betrayal before, I do understand it. If he can't stand to be a part of the same group as the man he blames for the death of the people he cared about most, I can't say that's not reasonable. 

 

But the fact is I don't play ball with ultimatums. Alistair's decision to walk is his own.

 

 

 

Fun fact; Alistair keeps Howe alive in the Darkspawn Chronicles DLC.  That he doesn't seem to have a problem pardoning people who've committed atrocities so long as those atrocities haven't directly impacted him makes letting him leave easier.

 

He told you he was going to do it and you did it anyway. *shrugs* I mean...I don't see how one can say it's a betrayal then ignore that you know Alistair probably felt quite betrayed himself.

 

Which is fair. I feel the same way about the DR.

 

Darkspawn Chronicles was just an excuse to kill everyone. There's a whole list (I forgot the post it was on the old forums so meh) where several things make no damn sense. Including that dude being a desire demon.

[Milan92]

 

Fun fact; Alistair keeps Howe alive in the Darkspawn Chronicles DLC.  That he doesn't seem to have a problem pardoning people who've committed atrocities so long as those atrocities haven't directly impacted him makes letting him leave easier.

 

He did huh? Interesting.

[Dabrikishaw]

Meh. Alistair is a damn man-child. Marrying Anora can only do him good. If it meant stopping the Blight my Warden would've gritted his teeth and recruited Howe. So Alistair's female mabari fit doesn't sway me.

Can't get behind putting Anora on the throne myself.

[Ryzaki]

That's your Warden. If my Warden would grudgingly recruit Howe; conscripting the Hero of River Dane is a walk in the park. And my Warden's best friend was Sten so all those chats about finding happiness in one's duty stuck.

 

I would assume that would've been you know understood. But if I must spell it out yes I meant my warden. The warden quotes are nice and all til you realize how idiotic they are with all there secret keepings and make things more difficult than they need to be. (Duncan could've just said wardens can sense darkspawn, that the reason thety can't kill the archdemon is because it'd kill them, so on.) He could've said all this **** during the joining instead of that stupid "we can join you" speech. Had Jory understand WHY Wardens are necessary.

 

As for Sten. My mage elf was friends with Sten. She didn't agree with happiness with duty or his mage views but they respected one another and she was...blunt.

 

Can't get behind putting Anora on the throne myself.

 

My only issue is putting her on the throne alone. Or with unhardened Alistair. Hardened Alistair and Anora is my go to ending. She doesn't walk all over him, and they see each other as equals.

[Former_Fiend]

He told you he was going to do it and you did it anyway. *shrugs* I mean...I don't see how one can say it's a betrayal then ignore that you know Alistair probably felt quite betrayed himself.

 

Which is fair. I feel the same way about the DR.

 

Darkspawn Chronicles was just an excuse to kill everyone. There's a whole list (I forgot the post it was on the old forums so meh) where several things make no damn sense. Including that dude being a desire demon.

 

I don't consider it a personal betrayal. I consider it a betrayal of the wardens.

 

 

He did huh? Interesting.

 

Yup. Was a ****** of a fight, too, if I remember right.