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[Ryzaki]

Probably cleaned up and working with Teagan

 

Oooh I hope you meet him during the redcliffe segment.

[AresKeith]

Oooh I hope you meet him during the redcliffe segment.

Hopefully all forms of Alistair appears

[Milan92]

Hopefully all forms of Alistair appears

 

Inquisitor: "So what's the plan, Teagan?"

 

Teagan: "We were suppose to begin our attack at 6 PM, but Alistair is still not here!"

 

Alistair: "*Burp* I thought you said 6 AM!"

 

Teagan: "Alistair, are you drunk!?"

 

Alistair: "Winner!"

 

Inquisitor: "Nice!"

 

Cassandra: "*sights*" 

[Master Warder Z_]

 

Him becoming a drunk is so sad. I guess he ends up being Oghren 2.0

 

He's going bald, he's gotten fat.

 

I think it's hilarious personally.

[AshenEndymion]

Hopefully all forms of Alistair appears

 
I hope so too.... I'd like to kill him again.
 
It would still be nice to see his grave, though.  Of course, since it seems like Andrastians burn their dead, it's unlikely that Alistair has a grave.  Especially since he was an usurper, and abandoned the Grey Wardens.  There'd be no reason for any marking to note his existence.

[dragonflight288]

I haven't read all the pages since I last posted, I'm on pag 18 or 19, and there's a lot of discussion going on there, and I though I'd add my own two cents. 

 

Justice, or at least the concept of it, is divided strictly, and only, between innocent and guilty. Also, true justice is about matching the punishment to the crime. 

 

If someone says they feel justified giving Anora to the elves because of Loghain selling elves as slaves into Tevinter, this would not be justice because it would be punishing a person (Anora) who is not guilty of the crime (slavery.) 

 

For those who wish to charge Loghain with treason, for abandoning Cailan on the field, they'll have to have evidence or some sort of proof that the battle was winnable to take away the 'tactical retreat.' And that'll be a daunting task considering this evidence. 

 

1. The darkspawn horde was growing larger with each day.

2. Cailan was bullheaded and pretty much demanded to fight on the front lines with the Wardens for glory. 

3. Cailan's job was to draw the darkspawn to him, hold the flank and have Loghain flank. But he fired only one arrow volley, sent the hounds out, then charged out and got himself and all his men surrounded on all sides. 

4. The beacon was lit over an hour late according to the devs, and since Loghain made the plan, he knew when the beacon should have been lit. 

5. The darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds even as Cailan and his men were surrounded, the Tower of Ishal taken, and had Loghain charged, all that would've happened is that he and his men would've got surrounded as well.

And

6. The devs, Gaider himself, have said that if Loghain felt the battle was winnable, he would've charged.

 

If someone is of the opinion that Loghain should've sacrificed all of Ferelden's army and capacity to defend itself to save one man, Cailan, is also, probably, of the opinion that armies can be replaced quickly, with the same level of equipment, training and numbers. 

 

Maybe, some people might be. 

 

Now, if someone feels slavery is worthy of death, then they can feel perfectly justified to have Loghain executed for the issue of slavery and I would have no issue with that, since I did that myself on my first playthrough. 

 

If someone feels knowingly hiring a blood mage to poison another noble is worthy of death, then that is also a form of justice as it can be seen as attempted murder. I know the devs said that the poison used was non-lethal, but playing the game, none of my wardens figured that out. 

 

But at the same time, if someone feels that it's more just forcing him to join am military order that he himself tried to stamp out and then die slaying the archdemon, whether for atonement or simply to make use of him as a general against his will, this is also a perfectly legitimate reason to keep him alive. 

 

And those who wish to use metagame knowledge, they can spare Loghain and do the Dark Ritual knowing full well he'll be sent to Orlais, the country he despises above all others, and see justice done by keeping him alive to be useful in a profession that will likely have him die a gruesome death while serving in a country he despises, that may actually be worse than the quick death given in the Landsmeet. 

 

It is important to note WHY you wish to kill him, and recognize if your reason for doing so matches the deed itself. If it does not, then it is vengeance, not justice. 

 

And this is where philosophy comes into play, something that is not used near as much as it should, and as is very convoluted and controversial as there are so many theories that you can justify any action. 

[In Exile]

I haven't read all the pages since I last posted, I'm on pag 18 or 19, and there's a lot of discussion going on there, and I though I'd add my own two cents. 

 

Justice, or at least the concept of it, is divided strictly, and only, between innocent and guilty. Also, true justice is about matching the punishment to the crime. 

 

If someone says they feel justified giving Anora to the elves because of Loghain selling elves as slaves into Tevinter, this would not be justice because it would be punishing a person (Anora) who is not guilty of the crime (slavery.) 

 

For those who wish to charge Loghain with treason, for abandoning Cailan on the field, they'll have to have evidence or some sort of proof that the battle was winnable to take away the 'tactical retreat.' And that'll be a daunting task considering this evidence. 

 

1. The darkspawn horde was growing larger with each day.

2. Cailan was bullheaded and pretty much demanded to fight on the front lines with the Wardens for glory. 

3. Cailan's job was to draw the darkspawn to him, hold the flank and have Loghain flank. But he fired only one arrow volley, sent the hounds out, then charged out and got himself and all his men surrounded on all sides. 

4. The beacon was lit over an hour late according to the devs, and since Loghain made the plan, he knew when the beacon should have been lit. 

5. The darkspawn were still pouring out of the wilds even as Cailan and his men were surrounded, the Tower of Ishal taken, and had Loghain charged, all that would've happened is that he and his men would've got surrounded as well.

And

6. The devs, Gaider himself, have said that if Loghain felt the battle was winnable, he would've charged.

 

If someone is of the opinion that Loghain should've sacrificed all of Ferelden's army and capacity to defend itself to save one man, Cailan, is also, probably, of the opinion that armies can be replaced quickly, with the same level of equipment, training and numbers. 

 

Maybe, some people might be. 

 

Now, if someone feels slavery is worthy of death, then they can feel perfectly justified to have Loghain executed for the issue of slavery and I would have no issue with that, since I did that myself on my first playthrough. 

 

If someone feels knowingly hiring a blood mage to poison another noble is worthy of death, then that is also a form of justice as it can be seen as attempted murder. I know the devs said that the poison used was non-lethal, but playing the game, none of my wardens figured that out. 

 

But at the same time, if someone feels that it's more just forcing him to join am military order that he himself tried to stamp out and then die slaying the archdemon, whether for atonement or simply to make use of him as a general against his will, this is also a perfectly legitimate reason to keep him alive. 

 

And those who wish to use metagame knowledge, they can spare Loghain and do the Dark Ritual knowing full well he'll be sent to Orlais, the country he despises above all others, and see justice done by keeping him alive to be useful in a profession that will likely have him die a gruesome death while serving in a country he despises, that may actually be worse than the quick death given in the Landsmeet. 

 

It is important to note WHY you wish to kill him, and recognize if your reason for doing so matches the deed itself. If it does not, then it is vengeance, not justice. 

 

And this is where philosophy comes into play, something that is not used near as much as it should, and as is very convoluted and controversial as there are so many theories that you can justify any action. 

 

The problem with using WOG about Loghain is that the DA:O story is an incomprehensible mess when it comes to him. WOG makes Loghain an unbelievable moron. He's a better character as a power hungry traitor. 

[Dabrikishaw]

I really like the scene with Loghain post-Ostagar however.

 

He looks really cool, especially with all the lights around him.

[Ryzaki]

" Which of you stood against the Orlesian Emperor when his troops flattened your fields and RAPED YOUR WIVES !? "

 

Probably the best line and delivery in all of DA:O.

 

Yeah nice line. Too bad his foolishness about the blight would've changed Orlesians to darkspawn.

[Master Warder Z_]

" Which of you stood against the Orlesian Emperor when his troops flattened your fields and RAPED YOUR WIVES !? "

 

Probably the best line and delivery in all of DA:O.

 

"The Emperor of Orlais also thought i could not bring him down, expect no more mercy then i showed to him." -Loghain Mac Tier 

[AshenEndymion]

I mean he really didn't think naming himself regent when the king's corpse was barely cold and then trying to blame Ostagar on the wardens weren't bad ideas? 

 

Publicly blaming the Warden is the only option.  The wardens were in charge of lighting the beacon, per Cailan's instructions.  The beacon was to be lit on Cailan's signal. The beacon was lit late, and by the time it was lit, there was no way to salvage a win out of Ostagar.  There are two explanations:  Cailan signaled the tower late(thus killing himself) or the Wardens failed to light the beacon as ordered(on purpose or through negligence).  Only a fool publicly says the former king killed himself.  Even if he believes it wholeheartedly.

 

Sure, darkspawn took the tower before the battle began, but that's not really something that anyone would think as a legitimate possibility(including Duncan), else the Warden and Alistair would have been in place before the battle started...

[steelfire_dragon]

something else you need to know or may know or forgot.

 

But King MErik made Loghain promise not to put the kingdom at Risk ever again just to save 1 man, not even him. So guess what, Loghain was just following orders, have a problem with it, too bad. Sux to be you as MErik is not listening about the matter anymore.

 

Cailin's death was his own making......

[Former_Fiend]

While I've always considered blaming the wardens as being a mistake, I've also always had the impression that Loghain would have always been fighting an uphill battle with the rest of the nobility regardless of what he did once getting back to Denerim.

 

Throughout the game a few people, both commoners and nobles, will mention how they still view Loghain as a commoner even though he's technically at the highest rank of the nobility. There seems to be a feeling that as a commoner, it really was his duty to rush in and try and save Cailen even if it meant his own death and the deaths of all of his men.

 

I mean, even the fact that Alistair automatically assumes that Loghain's retreat was a betrayal rather than a tactical decision kind of echoes this. Also highlights how little Alistair knows about military strategy when he says "The king had nearly defeated them!" Alistair, buddy, you and me were not watching the same battle.

[Ryzaki]

Publicly blaming the Warden is the only option.  The wardens were in charge of lighting the beacon, per Cailan's instructions.  The beacon was to be lit on Cailan's signal. The beacon was lit late, and by the time it was lit, there was no way to salvage a win out of Ostagar.  There are two explanations:  Cailan signaled the tower late(thus killing himself) or the Wardens failed to light the beacon as ordered(on purpose or through negligence).  Only a fool publicly says the former king killed himself.  Even if he believes it wholeheartedly.

 

Sure, darkspawn took the tower before the battle began, but that's not really something that anyone would think as a legitimate possibility(including Duncan), else the Warden and Alistair would have been in place before the battle started...

 

No it's not.

 

There's this magical thing called admitting to being overrun. The darkspawn are a threat that haven't been seen on the surface for centuries. They were simply not prepared. Especially not without reinforcements. Not to mention Loghain's men were responsible for clearing out the tower. They didn't notice that giant ****** hole in the ground? The darkspawn couldn't have been quiet making that thing. And again no one other than Loghain's stooges believe him. Everyone else's reaction is "...what?" it's not even a good lie. It's a lie for the sake of lying.

 

And if anyone wants to complain about him not getting the other half of the army killed? They're a fool. Anora could've spun that to her father doing what he could to save the rest of the army cause the king was a lost cause. It's a lot better than making himself look a traitor and moron by naming himself regent then claiming the wardens let the darkspawn when cause they wanted to kill Cailan (the  one person supporting them the most in Fereldan yeah that makes loads of sense).

 

And the wardens betrayed the king and got most of them killed is a legitimate possibility? NVM there order is completely dedicated to stopping the blight and darkspawn? Absurd. More like he couldn't take his head out his ass and admit the plan was a **** plan.

[TEWR]

They didn't notice that giant ****** hole in the ground? The darkspawn couldn't have been quiet making that thing. And again no one other than Loghain's stooges believe him. Everyone else's reaction is "...what?" it's not even a good lie. It's a lie for the sake of lying.

 

Which hole? The one we see in the tower or the one that leads directly into the valley where Cailan's men were? If the latter, then it seems that during the course of the battle while the army was preoccupied the Darkspawn (most likely the Ogre since that's how it would've basically destroyed the basement door) were digging into the tower. Or something. Bioware didn't really think it through. They just wanted Ostagar to be a trainwreck and ignored the important details.

 

For instance, how can Alistair claim to know how the battle was "nearly won" when we don't even have a damn window to look out of that isn't dependent on being as tall as two Ogres? He doesn't even attempt to look at the field to see if the Darkspawn are committed (which was the key factor), but instead says "Well we've definitely missed the hour mark. Light it!".

 

I still think Loghain was in the right, but I'm at least going to retool the events of the battle in my own personal headcanon to make things more sensible. Having the tunnel lead directly to the valley made little sense. If the Darkspawn did that during the battle, then it must not have been very thoroughly built and they came in easily. If the Darkspawn did that prior to the battle then.... how the **** does the army which is camped down in the valley miss it?

[Former_Fiend]

No it's not.

 

There's this magical thing called admitting to being overrun. The darkspawn are a threat that haven't been seen on the surface for centuries. They were simply not prepared. Especially not without reinforcements. Not to mention Loghain's men were responsible for clearing out the tower. They didn't notice that giant ****** hole in the ground? The darkspawn couldn't have been quiet making that thing. And again no one other than Loghain's stooges believe him. Everyone else's reaction is "...what?" it's not even a good lie. It's a lie for the sake of lying.

 

And if anyone wants to complain about him not getting the other half of the army killed? They're a fool. Anora could've spun that to her father doing what he could to save the rest of the army cause the king was a lost cause. It's a lot better than making himself look a traitor and moron by naming himself regent then claiming the wardens let the darkspawn when cause they wanted to kill Cailan (the  one person supporting them the most in Fereldan yeah that makes loads of sense).

 

And the wardens betrayed the king and got most of them killed is a legitimate possibility? NVM there order is completely dedicated to stopping the blight and darkspawn? Absurd. More like he couldn't take his head out his ass and admit the plan was a **** plan.

 

I imagine that the hole wasn't actually there when they first secured the tower, though it's been a while since I've done a playthrough where I talked to the guards about the tower before the battle, so if there's any mention of it, I don't recall.

[dragonflight288]

Which hole? The one we see in the tower or the one that leads directly into the valley where Cailan's men were? If the latter, then it seems that during the course of the battle while the army was preoccupied the Darkspawn (most likely the Ogre since that's how it would've basically destroyed the basement door) were digging into the tower. Or something. Bioware didn't really think it through. They just wanted Ostagar to be a trainwreck and ignored the important details.

 

For instance, how can Alistair claim to know how the battle was "nearly won" when we don't even have a damn window to look out of that isn't dependent on being as tall as two Ogres? He doesn't even attempt to look at the field to see if the Darkspawn are committed (which was the key factor), but instead says "Well we've definitely missed the hour mark. Light it!".

 

I still think Loghain was in the right, but I'm at least going to retool the events of the battle in my own personal headcanon to make things more sensible. Having the tunnel lead directly to the valley made little sense. If the Darkspawn did that during the battle, then it must not have been very thoroughly built and they came in easily. If the Darkspawn did that prior to the battle then.... how the **** does the army which is camped down in the valley miss it?

 

Maybe they were tunneling before the battle, and had arrived and broke through after the battle started?

[Master Warder Z_]

I imagine that the hole wasn't actually there when they first secured the tower, though it's been a while since I've done a playthrough where I talked to the guards about the tower before the battle, so if there's any mention of it, I don't recall.

 

The tower was locked off upon the Warden's initial arrival at Ostagar due to the discovery of lower chambers, presumably the tunnel is that.

[dragonflight288]

The tower was locked off upon the Warden's initial arrival at Ostagar due to the discovery of lower chambers, presumably the tunnel is that.

 

Presumably, but this has never been confirmed. It's possible, but then again, they may have fond a hidden cellar like we do in Amaranthine's Keep in Awakening. 

[TEWR]

I imagine that the hole wasn't actually there when they first secured the tower, though it's been a while since I've done a playthrough where I talked to the guards about the tower before the battle, so if there's any mention of it, I don't recall.

 

The guard mentions that lower chambers were discovered and Loghain's men are securing it, but he says that he didn't see anything like that when he was in there.

 

But then one has to wonder why Bioware would write a general -- who collects maps as a hobby and wants as he says "a line, clearly drawn, that I can defend -- and yet be ignorant of Ostagar's entire layout when he's had 18 years to study the kingdom's defenses.

 

 

The tower was locked off upon the Warden's initial arrival at Ostagar due to the discovery of lower chambers, presumably the tunnel is that.

 

Not really. The Darkspawn tunnel led them to the lower chambers. The lower chambers have Tevinter-style architecture.

[Former_Fiend]

I imagine those 18 years were spent studying defensive positions along the Frostbacks and northern coast. When he wasn't, you know, governing his teryner. 

 

The chasind weren't really a threat and no one saw the blight coming. And Ostagar is a thousand year old ruin. There are obviously going to be parts of it that are buried or closed off. 

 

To me it's not a mark of incompetence that Loghain and his men didn't manage to fully secure or even explore the tunnels under the tower. It just show's that they're bound by human limitations. 

 

And it's also a point that "securing" the tunnels may not have actually been possible. Short of collapsing the tunnels, which may well have brought the tower down on top of them, any defenses they put up would have simply been overrun by a darkspawn zerg rush.

[Ryzaki]

Which hole? The one we see in the tower or the one that leads directly into the valley where Cailan's men were? If the latter, then it seems that during the course of the battle while the army was preoccupied the Darkspawn (most likely the Ogre since that's how it would've basically destroyed the basement door) were digging into the tower. Or something. Bioware didn't really think it through. They just wanted Ostagar to be a trainwreck and ignored the important details.

 

For instance, how can Alistair claim to know how the battle was "nearly won" when we don't even have a damn window to look out of that isn't dependent on being as tall as two Ogres? He doesn't even attempt to look at the field to see if the Darkspawn are committed (which was the key factor), but instead says "Well we've definitely missed the hour mark. Light it!".

 

I still think Loghain was in the right, but I'm at least going to retool the events of the battle in my own personal headcanon to make things more sensible. Having the tunnel lead directly to the valley made little sense. If the Darkspawn did that during the battle, then it must not have been very thoroughly built and they came in easily. If the Darkspawn did that prior to the battle then.... how the **** does the army which is camped down in the valley miss it?

 

Yeah that hole was too massive to be done that fast. Either there would've been ogres throwing boulders (in which case...how'd no one HEAR) or...something.

 

That can just be explained by Alistair being Alistair.

 

I guess it was a rush job from when they decided to change Ostagar's plot around. Just ends up making everyone look like idiots tho.

[Ryzaki]

To me it's not a mark of incompetence that Loghain and his men didn't manage to fully secure or even explore the tunnels under the tower. It just show's that they're bound by human limitations. 

 

And it's also a point that "securing" the tunnels may not have actually been possible. Short of collapsing the tunnels, which may well have brought the tower down on top of them, any defenses they put up would have simply been overrun by a darkspawn zerg rush.

 

Yeah then how come master tactican might not realize darkspawn came up that hole his men never secured instead of "lol wardens betrayed us to the darkspawn." The blamding the warden thing makes me think he didn't know the hole was down there.

[Former_Fiend]

Yeah that hole was too massive to be done that fast. Either there would've been ogres throwing boulders (in which case...how'd no one HEAR) or...something.

 

That can just be explained by Alistair being Alistair.

 

I guess it was a rush job from when they decided to change Ostagar's plot around. Just ends up making everyone look like idiots tho.

 

That hole could have opened up in an instant. It's a thousand year ruin; the whole thing is crumbling. All it takes is taking out a support beam or loadbearing wall in the tunnels and the floor would give way like a sink hole.