Yeah then how come master tactican might not realize darkspawn came up that hole his men never secured instead of "lol wardens betrayed us to the darkspawn." The blamding the warden thing makes me think he didn't know the hole was down there.
How would he not? He signed the order to secure the tower until the ruins were explored.
How would he not? He signed the order to secure the tower until the ruins were explored.
Probably cause all through the game he's bitching about the wardens and betrayal. it's not a good lie so he either believes it or he's a moron.
That hole could have opened up in an instant. It's a thousand year ruin; the whole thing is crumbling. All it takes is taking out a support beam or loadbearing wall in the tunnels and the floor would give way like a sink hole.
An instant? I have my doubts. They have to reach that beam in the first place.
Probably cause all through the game he's bitching about the wardens and betrayal. it's not a good lie so he either believes it or he's a moron.
._. He ordered the tower sealed until the lower chambers were secured, he knew about the hole.
Yeah then how come master tactican might not realize darkspawn came up that hole his men never secured instead of "lol wardens betrayed us to the darkspawn." The blamding the warden thing makes me think he didn't know the hole was down there.
You don't know he didn't secure it. But he has a limited number of men; the darkspawn don't.
He puts men on the hole to secure it; those men get killed by the darkspawn because not everyone in Thedas is as competent of a fighter as our party members.
I'm not speaking in what if's an hypotheticals here. There are two options; either he had men defending it and they simply failed because sometimes that happens, or he left it wide open for no reason. Why anyone assumes the latter to be the case is beyond me.
I understand he had the teyrnir to worry about, but he could've sent someone like Cauthrien (his number 2) to inspect it, to say nothing of how he wasn't doing anything before he was named Teyrn in 9:12 Dragon. After the rebellion ended, there would've been plenty of time, as Rowan and Maric were rebuilding and he... seemed to be doing nothing.
True, the Chasind haven't been a threat for two hundred years, but even so it's important to know as much as you can about your land.
And it's also a point that "securing" the tunnels may not have actually been possible. Short of collapsing the tunnels, which may well have brought the tower down on top of them, any defenses they put up would have simply been overrun by a darkspawn zerg rush.
I'm not so sure. It's Dwarven-built (in the Tevinter style, not that that matters but I forgot the Dwarven bit) and it's still in remarkable shape as many people attest. Who's to say it wouldn't have withstood the collapsing of the lower passages?
._. He ordered the tower sealed until the lower chambers were secured, he knew about the hole.
So he's a moron. Good to know.
You don't know he didn't secure it. But he has a limited number of men; the darkspawn don't.
He puts men on the hole to secure it; those men get killed by the darkspawn because not everyone in Thedas is as competent of a fighter as our party members.
I'm not speaking in what if's an hypotheticals here. There are two options; either he had men defending it and they simply failed because sometimes that happens, or he left it wide open for no reason. Why anyone assumes the latter to be the case is beyond me.
Personally I don't assume the latter. I just think him being in the dark about it for so long is out of character.
You don't know he didn't secure it. But he has a limited number of men; the darkspawn don't.
He puts men on the hole to secure it; those men get killed by the darkspawn because not everyone in Thedas is as competent of a fighter as our party members.
I'm not speaking in what if's an hypotheticals here. There are two options; either he had men defending it and they simply failed because sometimes that happens, or he left it wide open for no reason. Why anyone assumes the latter to be the case is beyond me.
if he secured it the darkspawn wouldn't have been a surprise. I'm assuming this is done in the morning. The darkspawn didn't just teleport to the hole when nightfall hit.
And he doesn't notice these men are missing hours later?
And if his men failed why on earth is he blaming the wardens and not you know darkspawn. Nevermind the latter makes a hell of a lot more sense.
So he's a moron. Good to know.
The guard outside the Tower said that it was sealed while his men secured the lower chambers.
He knew about it, and had guards there as well.
They were simply overrun. This is no failing of Loghain's.
So he's a moron. Good to know.
He knew about the lower chambers.
He had men actively defending the lower chambers.
They failed because the darkspawn outfought them.
What part of that makes Loghain a moron?
He knew about the lower chambers.
He had men actively defending the lower chambers.
They failed because the darkspawn outfought them.
What part of that makes Loghain a moron?
Him not realizing that makes the darkspawn responsible for the beacon's delay and not the damn wardens.
The guard outside the Tower said that it was sealed while his men secured the lower chambers.
He knew about it, and had guards there as well.
They were simply overrun. This is no failing of Loghain's.
Again that's not my issue. (I wish he'd ADMIT to being overrun instead of THE WARDENZ DID IT!)
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Him not realizing that makes the darkspawn responsible for the beacon's delay and not the damn wardens.
The Wardens were a scapegoat. It's not stupid. It buys him some allies at the Landsmeet where he declares regency.
The Wardens were a scapegoat.
A bad one considering no one believes him outside his stooges.
Him not realizing that makes the darkspawn responsible for the beacon's delay and not the damn wardens.
he wasn't around when it happened, he was already at the front by then
if he secured it the darkspawn wouldn't have been a surprise. I'm assuming this is done in the morning. The darkspawn didn't just teleport to the hole when nightfall hit.
And he doesn't notice these men are missing hours later?
And if his men failed why on earth is he blaming the wardens and not you know darkspawn. Nevermind the latter makes a hell of a lot more sense.
The darkspawn more or less did teleport; it's called tunneling. They broke in from underground and swarmed in such numbers that the men were taken unawares.
The darkspawn didn't attack the tower until right when the battle was starting. There wasn't a tower full of darkspawn all day.
They also didn't come in through that hole behind Cailen's lines, they came from further down. They exited through that hole to take Cailen's force from behind while others went up into the tower.
And Loghain doesn't know what happened in the tower. He doesn't have a cellphone to talk to his men in there once the battle's started. He doesn't have a crystal ball to watch all the events.
He blames the wardens because he honestly believes that the wardens are in on some Orlesian conspiracy with Cailen. He's wrong, obviously, but it wasn't about covering up his own failure as it was shifting the focus from the darkspawn to Orlais. And I'm not defending that decision; it was a mistake, and he was mistaken about the situation by thinking it wasn't a blight. But it wasn't for the reasons you think it was for.
he wasn't around when it happened, he was already at the front by then
Shouldn't matter. He knows there's a giant unsecured hole. He sees the beacon is late getting lit. Logic would dictate the order dedicated to fighting darkspawn wouldn't intentional wipe their Fereldan branch out. Therefore it was the darkspawn breaking through that unsecured hole in the ground.
People keep going on about how he's a strategist and tactician and great general and he can't put those simple pieces together?
Shouldn't matter. He knows there's a giant unsecured hole. He sees the beacon is late getting lit. Logic would dictate the order dedicated to fighting darkspawn wouldn't intentional wipe their Fereldan branch out. Therefore it was the darkspawn breaking through that unsecured hole in the ground.
People keep going on about how he's a strategist and tactician and great general and he can't put those simple pieces together?
it was secured as far as he knew
furthermore, he had every reason to blame the wardens in order to draw suspicion away from his own desertion, he thought there were no wardens to contest it, and he underestimated the darkspawn, along with every other Ferelden noble
Him not realizing that makes the darkspawn responsible for the beacon's delay and not the damn wardens.
You don't seem to understand that he wasn't blaming the wardens for delaying the beacon, he was blaming them for convincing Cailen to fight in the front lines. He was accusing them of putting Cailen in a Uriah Gambit.
Loghain doesn't know how or why the beacon was delayed. The beacon is his method of communication. That's one of the limitations of medieval warfare; limited communication. All Loghain knows is that the beacon was delayed and once it was, the battle was lost.
The darkspawn more or less did teleport; it's called tunneling. They broke in from underground and swarmed in such numbers that the men were taken unawares.
The darkspawn didn't attack the tower until right when the battle was starting. There wasn't a tower full of darkspawn all day.
They also didn't come in through that hole behind Cailen's lines, they came from further down. They exited through that hole to take Cailen's force from behind while others went up into the tower.
And Loghain doesn't know what happened in the tower. He doesn't have a cellphone to talk to his men in there once the battle's started. He doesn't have a crystal ball to watch all the events.
He blames the wardens because he honestly believes that the wardens are in on some Orlesian conspiracy with Cailen. He's wrong, obviously, but it wasn't about covering up his own failure as it was shifting the focus from the darkspawn to Orlais. And I'm not defending that decision; it was a mistake, and he was mistaken about the situation by thinking it wasn't a blight. But it wasn't for the reasons you think it was for.
Again if they didn't start until right when the battle was starting they'd had to pretty much teleport. The tunneling had to have started before then. The battle is just starting when the warden is talking to Duncan. Unless you're going to tell me the darkspawn dug that tunnel in about five minutes...then...
I'll take your word on that.
So he doesn't know whether or not the tower was secured before that then?
Which is still idiotic because getting their Fereldan branch killed doesn't make any tactical sense.
Shouldn't matter. He knows there's a giant unsecured hole. He sees the beacon is late getting lit. Logic would dictate the order dedicated to fighting darkspawn wouldn't intentional wipe their Fereldan branch out. Therefore it was the darkspawn breaking through that unsecured hole in the ground.
People keep going on about how he's a strategist and tactician and great general and he can't put those simple pieces together?
What makes you so goddamn convinced he didn't?
It's obvious to me that he did. He figured the darkspawn had overrun the defenses he placed at the tower, which meant they were behind Cailen's line, which meant that Cailen was trapped and couldn't be saved.
He's not blaming the wardens for that. He blames the wardens for getting Cailen into that position to begin with as part of an Orlesian plot.
it was secured as far as he knew
furthermore, he had every reason to blame the wardens in order to draw suspicion away from his own desertion, he thought there were no wardens to contest it, and he underestimated the darkspawn, along with every other Ferelden noble
Improvement I guess.
Oddly enough his desertion could've been framed as him saving the rest of the army...if he hadn't decided to poison people, blame the wardens and name himself regent instead of letting his daughter do the speaking. Most of his problems are of his own making.
Improvement I guess.
Oddly enough his desertion could've been framed as him saving the rest of the army...if he hadn't decided to poison people, blame the wardens and name himself regent instead of letting his daughter do the speaking. Most of his problems are of his own making.
agreed, political maneuvering is not a strong suit of many generals
You don't seem to understand that he wasn't blaming the wardens for delaying the beacon, he was blaming them for convincing Cailen to fight in the front lines. He was accusing them of putting Cailen in a Uriah Gambit.
Loghain doesn't know how or why the beacon was delayed. The beacon is his method of communication. That's one of the limitations of medieval warfare; limited communication. All Loghain knows is that the beacon was delayed and once it was, the battle was lost.
...really? He doesn't hear Duncan suggesting they wait for reinforcements? He's deaf now too? For the record he's suggesting they wait for Fereldan reinforcements before you try to play the Orlesian card.
And instead of assuming it's the darkspawn that overwhelmed the field (something that he should be able to see from his position) he goes the wardens did it. They killed Cailan (who was the person who supported them most) and got most of their people killed by darkspawn so they Orlesians could roll in. Logic.
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