687 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

Again if they didn't start until right when the battle was starting they'd had to pretty much teleport. The tunneling had to have started before then. The battle is just starting when the warden is talking to Duncan. Unless you're going to tell me the darkspawn dug that tunnel in about five minutes...then...

 

I'll take your word on that.

 

So he doesn't know whether or not the tower was secured before that then?
 

Which is still idiotic because getting their Fereldan branch killed doesn't make any tactical sense.

 

The battle starts about an hour after that conversation, actually. Duncan even says that you've got about an hour before the battle. The fact that the game skips that hour doesn't mean it didn't happen. 

 

It's also a point that darkspawn can tunnel very quickly, and neither Loghain or his men are used to countering that type of warfare. 

 

So you've got Loghain's men, down in the dark, exploring these catacombs that they don't know the layout to. Maybe there's some scratching from the other side of a wall, or beneath the floor. Then bam, darkspawn.

[Ryzaki]

The battle starts about an hour after that conversation, actually. Duncan even says that you've got about an hour before the battle. The fact that the game skips that hour doesn't mean it didn't happen. 

 

It's also a point that darkspawn can tunnel very quickly, and neither Loghain or his men are used to countering that type of warfare. 

 

So you've got Loghain's men, down in the dark, exploring these catacombs that they don't know the layout to. Maybe there's some scratching from the other side of a wall, or beneath the floor. Then bam, darkspawn.

 

? I thought he said you had a hour to light the beacon. That's why Alistair says you're late you've spent an hour fighting in the tower. (granted it's been a while since I played Ostagar).

 

Anyway I'm going to assume I'm wrong on this like I said been a while. Skip Ostagar mod gets a workout XD

 

True. But again that's more reason he should you know...consider it just might be the threat he's not used to that did the damage instead of the group who's job it is to combat them letting them win cause Orlesians. I have no issue with him being unprepared cause that's fair. He isn't used to fighting them. But he disregards the words of those that are and then blames them for the **** up. I just...

 

It'd been a hell of a lot more than scratching. Darkspawn (from what we've see in game) are not quiet. Most likely they used that ogre to break through as well. (can't imagine why it'd be there otherwise. the real question is how in the hell did it fit through the doors).

[dragonflight288]

? I thought he said you had a hour to light the beacon. That's why Alistair says you're late you've spent an hour fighting in the tower. (granted it's been a while since I played Ostagar).

 

Anyway I'm going to assume I'm wrong on this like I said been a while. Skip Ostagar mod gets a workout XD

 

True. But again that's more reason he should you know...consider it just might be the threat he's not used to that did the damage instead of the group who's job it is to combat them letting them win cause Orlesians. I have no issue with him being unprepared cause that's fair. He isn't used to fighting them. But he disregards the words of those that are and then blames them for the **** up. I just...

 

It'd been a hell of a lot more than scratching. Darkspawn (from what we've see in game) are not quiet. Most likely they used that ogre to break through as well. (can't imagine why it'd be there otherwise. the real question is how in the hell did it fit through the doors).

 

And yet that very tactic is used to overwhelm the Wardens at Vigil's Keep in Awakening, and the Wardens are darkspawn combat experts. Why should Loghain and his men, many of them may not have expected to fight in a war at all, be expected to fair any better than professional darkspawn slayers?

[Ryzaki]

And yet that very tactic is used to overwhelm the Wardens at Vigil's Keep in Awakening, and the Wardens are darkspawn combat experts. Why should Loghain and his men, many of them may not have expected to fight in a war at all, be expected to fair any better than professional darkspawn slayers?

 

How many times do I have to say I'm not blaming him for being overwhelmed?

 

As for Awakening the issue there was the darkspawn were smarter than usual.

 

I'm blaming him for blaming it on the wardens when it was them being overwhelmed.

[Steelcan]

How many times do I have to say I'm not blaming him for being overwhelmed?

 

I'm blaming him for blaming it on the wardens when it was them being overwhelmed.

yes his blame of the wardens is misplaced and in the long run not politically expedient, but they are a convenient short term scapegoat

[Ryzaki]

yes his blame of the wardens is misplaced and in the long run not politically expedient, but they are a convenient short term scapegoat

 

Except no one in power buys it except stooges already on his side. It just served to make his point weaker not stronger.

[dragonflight288]

How many times do I have to say I'm not blaming him for being overwhelmed?

 

I'm blaming him for blaming it on the wardens when it was them being overwhelmed.

 

And no one is defending that action. It was a political maneuver, as has been stated, to try and win allies at the Landsmeet and get them to unite under his banner. 

 

Loghain is simply a crappy politician and made the bannorn feel alienated, came across as abrasive and so on. 

 

I do think he truly believed it, so great was his paranoia of Orlais, but that action is not one that is worth defending, so your point there is right. 

[Ryzaki]

And no one is defending that action. It was a political maneuver, as has been stated, to try and win allies at the Landsmeet and get them to unite under his banner. 

 

Loghain is simply a crappy politician and made the bannorn feel alienated, came across as abrasive and so on. 

 

I do think he truly believed it, so great was his paranoia of Orlais, but that action is not one that is worth defending, so your point there is right. 

 

My issue is it was a stupid move and only served to weaken his position. Especially when the sad thing is simply being honest about the darkspawn overwhelming them and Cailan's and the orders demise being an unfortunate loss while putting the politics in Anora's capable hands would've strengthened his position considerably (and indeed the Warden would have little to no reason to do anything other than work with him if he wasn't busy trying to shift blame).

 

I'm not a politician but even I know better than to make unnecessary enemies. And that's pretty much what he spent the whole game doing.

[TEWR]

@Former_Fiend: I could accept the Darkspawn coming up from below and then splitting into a Tower group and others creating a second hole that leads behind Cailan's forces if we saw a secondary hole anywhere in the lower chambers that looked like it came from below. Alas, we do not, as far as I can recall. We only have the remnants of the way down destroyed by the Ogre and the hole that leads into the valley.

[Steelcan]

Except no one in power buys it except stooges already on his side. It just served to make his point weaker not stronger.

and I point to a lack of political experience for that, the wardens were only recently allowed back into Ferelden so its not an unreasonable idea

[Ryzaki]

and I point to a lack of political experience for that, the wardens were only recently allowed back into Ferelden so its not an unreasonable idea

 

Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

I'm not sure why he'd think "The wardens...let me blame them on killing the king that rolled out the welcome wagon via darkspawn and getting their entire order save 2 new recruits killed. That's believable."

[Steelcan]

Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

I'm not sure why he'd think "The wardens...let me blame them on killing the king that rolled out the welcome wagon via darkspawn and getting their entire order save 2 new recruits killed. That's believable."

He blames them on filling the king's head with fiction about their prowess, he doesn't say they ran him through

[Ryzaki]

He blames them on filling the king's head with fiction about their prowess, he doesn't say they ran him through

 

Except they didn't. He's standing right there when Duncan suggests they wait for Redcliffe.

 

Not to mention the let me remind you suggests that it's not Duncan's first time suggesting they wait.

[dragonflight288]

Except they didn't. He's standing right there when Duncan suggests they wait for Redcliffe.

 

Umm...no he's not. Only Cailan, the Warden, and some of Cailan's men are there. 

 

He's standing there when Cailan suggests they wait for the Orlesians as a way to push Loghain's buttons. 

[Steelcan]

Except they didn't. He's standing right there when Duncan suggests they wait for Redcliffe.

 

Not to mention the let me remind you suggests that it's not Duncan's first time suggesting they wait.

He's correct that Cailan is too enraptured with the Grey Warden mythos

[Ryzaki]

Umm...no he's not. Only Cailan, the Warden, and some of Cailan's men are there. 

 

He's standing there when Cailan suggests they wait for the Orlesians as a way to push Loghain's buttons. 

 

Oh right my bad. I need to replay *rubs temples*

 

Either way I highly doubt Duncan hasn't said such a thing in front of Loghain.

 

Yeah got the two mixed. Loghain was in his tent during the intro conversation.

 

Regardless I'm going to assume Duncan didn't feel Cailan's head with nonsense about the wardens. He doesn't seem the type.

 

He's correct that Cailan is too enraptured with the Grey Warden mythos

 

But that's not Duncan's doing. Duncan is very down to earth about what the wardens represent.

[Steelcan]

 

But that's not Duncan's doing. Duncan is very down to earth about what the wardens represent.

Correct, but he can't go around saying "our king who died fighting the incarnation of evil and was immensely popular was a bloody moron who was better suited to stamping letters than leading armies"

[Ryzaki]

Correct, but he can't go around saying "our king who died fighting the incarnation of evil and was immensely popular was a bloody moron who was better suited to stamping letters than leading armies"

 

Ah but he could've said "we were overwhelmed and I saved the portion of the army I could from the darkspawn threat." well if he hadn't been dumb enough to jump into bed with Howe and poison Eamon. And the nobles that initially balked at that (the saving line not the other two) could've been reigned in by Anora.

 

Of course that plan would've had him suggesting he wasn't infallible and letting Anora do her job but...yeah.

 

He didn't have to bring up the king as an idiot. **** he could've suggested bs like the king bought the rest of them time to get back home to regroup. (Yeah there would've been the "why didn't you do that" bits but that could've been explained by Anora) if he had to bring up the king at all.

[Steelcan]

Ah but he could've said "we were overwhelmed and I saved the portion of the army I could from the darkspawn threat." well if he hadn't been dumb enough to jump into bed with Howe and poison Eamon. And the nobles that initally balked at that (the saving line not the other two) could've been reigned in by Anora.

 

Of course that plan would've had him suggesting he wasn't infallible and letting Anora do her job but...yeah.

 

He didn't have to bring up the king as an idiot. **** he could've suggested bs like the king bought the rest of them time to get back home to regroup.

we can argue all night over what would have been a better line to sell to the nobility, or we could agree that he screwed up, but understandably so given his attitude towards wardens and his political inexperience

[dragonflight288]

Correct, but he can't go around saying "our king who died fighting the incarnation of evil and was immensely popular was a bloody moron who was better suited to stamping letters than leading armies"

 

Anora: Did you kill Cailan?

 

Loghain: Cailan's death was of his own making. 

[TEWR]

Loghain's never been great at politics. If you say to Teagan "You don't believe Loghain?" his response is (basically) "That Cailan was in it for the glory and got himself killed? That the Wardens betrayed the nation? No, I do not believe it."

 

I still think the Wardens being political scapegoats is a valid thing to do from his perspective, if one doesn't gloss over their history -- which is very checkered. But do I think he went about it in the best way to capitalize on it? Nah. To a degree, I think he didn't capitalize on a lot of things that would've helped his efforts.

[Hellion Rex]

So if i executed loghain in the landsmeet, will he stay dead or will we see him in DA: I. I hope choices will be respected and BW doesnt do another Leliana

He'll be dancin' the hellfire rumba in DAI...at least in my save.

[Ryzaki]

we can argue all night over what would have been a better line to sell to the nobility, or we could agree that he screwed up, but understandably so given his attitude towards wardens and his political inexperience

 

Yeah I'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

 

He'll be dancin' the hellfire rumba in DAI...at least in my save.

 

Yeah I don't want another Leliana. Not even for characters I do like such as Alistair.

 

if they're dead leave em dead.
 

[Steelcan]

He'll be dancin' the hellfire rumba in DAI...at least in my save.

relevant.......

 

[Steelcan]

 

Yeah I don't want another Leliana. Not even for characters I do like such as Alistair.

 

if they're dead leave em dead.
 

funny you mention Alistair... my newest playthrough hasn't been finished