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[Former_Fiend]

Loghain didnt cud havd sent a small force to help the king and duncan. He waited for the tower of ishal to light before signalling the retreat. He planned for this.
And my point for the broodmother question was to show that loghain was blinded by hatred for orlesians that he failed to see the real threat. If u dont understand this, i wud doubt ur english too

 

 

Cailen and Duncan were fighting in the thickest part of the battle. They were sandwiched between the darkspawn and their own men, and were rapidly being surrounded. A "small force" would have been cut down. And as far as Loghain was concerned, each and every man in his own army was worth more than Cailen, and it's kind of hard to argue with him.

 

The broodmother question also ignores the fact that no one outside the grey wardens knows what the hell a brood mother is. Loghain didn't know. Cailen didn't know. No one in the army knew. What happens when the darkspawn capture someone is horrible, but it's an unknown quantity from their perspective. They didn't imagine it would be anything pleasant, but they didn't know just what it was.

 

Hell, not even the wardens knew how broodmothers were made before our Warden's push to the dead trenches, according to Gaider.

 

And here I am, doing just what I said I wasn't here to do.

[Medhia_Nox]

Also of note was that the Tower if Ishal was taken... and all the Darkspawn needed to do was flood up through that hole, across the bridge where all the siege weapons were conveniently located and into the Ferelden camp where they could conveniently flank Loghain had he stayed.

 

Nobody knew that, true, but still - the annihilation at Ostagar was a sure thing.  Personally, I think it was Bioware's way of saying:  This is dark fantasy.  No "skin of our teeth" wins - no noble kings rallying their men to victory in the 11th hour - no great heroes saving the day.

 

Loghain's treachery left Ferelden with a greater standing army than it otherwise would have (since true civil war didn't break out in Origins - even if it would have after the Landsmeet).

[Spicen]

Loghain did try to save the King, he told him not to be an idiot and that the plan wouldn't work. Cailan refused to listen and thus Loghain abandoned him as he wasn't going to waste his forces to save a fool child in a situation where he couldn't be saved. There were simply too many Darkspawn present.

Loghain isn't a nice man, he tries to think logical hence why he doesn't put much merit in "Legends" and believes Tactics can win the day against the Darkspawn. Which turns out to be the case, for the most part, since before Landsmeet he secured a lot of territory and the Darkspawn were pretty much at a standstill. The arrival of the Archdemon taking "Direct Control" is what changed thing a great deal.

With the state Fereldan was in, without the gw allies his army and 'tactics' wud have been purged. Even with dwarves, elves,etc they struggled.
If i was the warden, i wud have done what duncan wud supposedly have done: left fereldan to the darkspawn seeing how a traitor is loved by people in the game and those playing it love him.

[Spicen]

Cailen and Duncan were fighting in the thickest part of the battle. They were sandwiched between the darkspawn and their own men, and were rapidly being surrounded. A "small force" would have been cut down. And as far as Loghain was concerned, each and every man in his own army was worth more than Cailen, and it's kind of hard to argue with him.

The broodmother question also ignores the fact that no one outside the grey wardens knows what the hell a brood mother is. Loghain didn't know. Cailen didn't know. No one in the army knew. What happens when the darkspawn capture someone is horrible, but it's an unknown quantity from their perspective. They didn't imagine it would be anything pleasant, but they didn't know just what it was.

Hell, not even the wardens knew how broodmothers were made before our Warden's push to the dead trenches, according to Gaider.

And here I am, doing just what I said I wasn't here to do.

About the broodmother question: i asked what wud u do?
And also loghain saw orlesians a bigger threatthan than the darkspawn. That was my point

[Former_Fiend]

About the broodmother question: i asked what wud u do?
And also loghain saw orlesians a bigger threatthan than the darkspawn. That was my point

 

What I would do in that situation is irrelevant as I have information Loghain didn't. 

[Ynqve]

With the state Fereldan was in, without the gw allies his army and 'tactics' wud have been purged. Even with dwarves, elves,etc they struggled.
If i was the warden, i wud have done what duncan wud supposedly have done: left fereldan to the darkspawn seeing how a traitor is loved by people in the game and those playing it love him.

 

Dude, have you read the Stolen Throne? I'm guessing not, because if you did you would know the awesomeness that is Loghain Mac Tir and why the people of Ferelden love him. 

[Former_Fiend]

 

I'm not here to justify Loghain's actions, debate the morality of them, or justify my personal decision to spare him.

 

I think that if you killed Loghain and check the "killed loghain" box on the Keep, then he shouldn't show up in your game.

 

I think that if I spared Loghain and check the "spared loghain" box on the Keep, then he should show up in mine.

 

That's the extend of my opinion on the matter.

 

Going to repeat this.

[Spicen]

Also of note was that the Tower if Ishal was taken... and all the Darkspawn needed to do was flood up through that hole, across the bridge where all the siege weapons were conveniently located and into the Ferelden camp where they could conveniently flank Loghain had he stayed.

Nobody knew that, true, but still - the annihilation at Ostagar was a sure thing. Personally, I think it was Bioware's way of saying: This is dark fantasy. No "skin of our teeth" wins - no noble kings rallying their men to victory in the 11th hour - no great heroes saving the day.

Loghain's treachery left Ferelden with a greater standing army than it otherwise would have (since true civil war didn't break out in Origins - even if it would have after the Landsmeet).

Civil could have happened if the idiot grey warden wasnt there to save fereldan's sorry butt

[Samahl]

And also loghain saw orlesians a bigger threatthan than the darkspawn. That was my point

 

Had Loghain (or anyone but the dwarves, really) even encountered darkspawn before the Fifth Blight? The Grey Wardens are the specialists, and they were dwindling at the time.

[Spicen]

Dude, have you read the Stolen Throne? I'm guessing not, because if you did you would know the awesomeness that is Loghain Mac Tir and why the people of Ferelden love him.

No i havent and what he did before isnt the point. I know he kicked out the orlesians, great. He also happened to try to kill eamon who also fought for fereldan

[Elite Midget]

With the state Fereldan was in, without the gw allies his army and 'tactics' wud have been purged. Even with dwarves, elves,etc they struggled.
If i was the warden, i wud have done what duncan wud supposedly have done: left fereldan to the darkspawn seeing how a traitor is loved by people in the game and those playing it love him.

That's due to the Archdemon, without it around Loghain wasn't having too much trouble against the Darkspawn even with a Ferelden that wasn't united. 

 

Loghain was a Hero who had saved Ferelden before, the people following him isn't out of the left field as Loghain earned his position and title as their Hero.

 

 

Had Loghain (or anyone but the dwarves, really) even encountered darkspawn before the Fifth Blight? The Grey Wardens are the specialists, and they were dwindling at the time.

I believe Loghain had encountered Darkspawn before but you need to read the Novels for that stuff. The Novel space gives a lot of detail to Loghain's character and how he thinks.

[Spicen]

Had Loghain (or anyone but the dwarves, really) even encountered darkspawn before the Fifth Blight? The Grey Wardens are the specialists, and they were dwindling at the time.

There were always legends and stories. He was like child for not taking them seriously. We know what happens when a child plays with fire

[Ynqve]

No i havent and what he did before isnt the point. I know he kicked out the orlesians, great. He also happened to try to kill eamon who also fought for fereldan

 

Do yourself a favor, read the book. If you like the DA games, then you'll probably enjoy it. And after that, then you can go back here and complain over how the Fereldan people dare support him even if he betrayed Cailan. Who knows, you may even end up liking Loghain.

[Spicen]

That's due to the Archdemon, without it around Loghain wasn't having too much trouble against the Darkspawn even with a Ferelden that wasn't united.

Loghain was a Hero who had saved Ferelden before, the people following him isn't out of the left field as Loghain earned his position and title as their Hero.



I believe Loghain had encountered Darkspawn before but you need to read the Novels for that stuff. The Novel space gives a lot of detail to Loghain's character and how he thinks.

What does the novel say? Anyway that wudnt change my opinion. Everyone says cailan is stupid but for failing to see the true threat i wud classify him as a bigger idiot

[Spicen]

Do yourself a favor, read the book. If you like the DA games, then you'll probably enjoy it. And after that, then you can go back here and complain over how the Fereldan people dare support him even if he betrayed Cailan. Who knows, you may even end up liking Loghain.

I might read it after inquisition. But it wudnt change my opinion. I cud similarly make a novel of his antics in origin

[Samahl]

There were always legends and stories. He was like child for not taking them seriously. We know what happens when a child plays with fire

 

How can you characterize anyone as "child-like" for not putting stock in legends when they are so often downright inaccurate? In order for stories to be engaging, they have to be entertaining, and it is not above storytellers to exaggerate/minimize details as they see fit to inflate entertainment value.

[Samahl]

I believe Loghain had encountered Darkspawn before but you need to read the Novels for that stuff. The Novel space gives a lot of detail to Loghain's character and how he thinks.

 

Probably not things like broodmothers though, I'd presume.

[Ynqve]

I might read it after inquisition. But it wudnt change my opinion. I cud similarly make a novel of his antics in origin

 

You should do that, you should read all the novels. They're great! 

 

But on the subject of Loghain in Origins, I found his reasoning behind the betrayal at Ostagar to be perfectly solid. He's a pragmatic and logical guy. He did what he thought was best for Ferelden (and in hindsight, he was kind of right). I may not agree with all of his decisions after that, like selling elves, but he was under the influence of Howe. You don't like him, that's fine. I can see why you don't. To me, one of the things that I enjoy about the game is that the antagonist isn't an ax-crazy dictator. Loghain is a wonderful villain because you can see why he would do what he does and even agree with it. He's a brilliantly written character.

 

That is one of the reasons why I hope to see him in Inquisition. I want to know what he's up to, and what he thinks of the situation in Thedas. Hell, if anything I want to recruit him to the inquisition. We would be almost unstoppable with his expertise at hand.

[Elite Midget]

Anyway, Loghain is old when he becomes a Grey Warden and the Taint means a short life. So Loghain could very well be dead by DA:I due to that or has a cameo where you meet him heading off to Orzammer and later the Deep Roads to walk the final walk of the Grey Wardens.

 

 

Probably not things like broodmothers though, I'd presume.

No, not even the Grey Wardens knew much or anything about them until DA:O I believe.

[Spicen]

You should do that, you should read all the novels. They're great!

But on the subject of Loghain in Origins, I found his reasoning behind the betrayal at Ostagar to be perfectly solid. He's a pragmatic and logical guy. He did what he thought was best for Ferelden (and in hindsight, he was kind of right). I may not agree with all of his decisions after that, like selling elves, but he was under the influence of Howe. You don't like him, that's fine. I can see why you don't. To me, one of the things that I enjoy about the game is that the antagonist isn't an ax-crazy dictator. Loghain is a wonderful villain because you can see why he would do what he does and even agree with it. He's a brilliantly written character.

That is one of the reasons why I hope to see him in Inquisition. I want to know what he's up to, and what he thinks of the situation in Thedas. Hell, if anything I want to recruit him to the inquisition. We would be almost unstoppable with his expertise at hand.

Spicen's tranquil : I propose we agree to disagree.

[Spicen]

Anyway, Loghain is old when he becomes a Grey Warden and the Taint means a short life. So Loghain could very well be dead by DA:I due to that or has a cameo where you meet him heading off to Orzammer and later the Deep Roads to walk the final walk of the Grey Wardens.


No, not even the Grey Wardens knew much or anything about them until DA:O I believe.

Actually i read the codex. The discovery was made before dao by a group of wardens.

[Former_Fiend]

Actually i read the codex. The discovery was made before dao by a group of wardens.

 

What the codex actually says:

 

It is well-known that darkspawn carry off those captured in their raids to underground lairs. Most assume that the prisoners are eaten, or somehow tainted and turned into darkspawn themselves, though this could never account for the sheer numbers of the horde. Forays made by Grey Wardens into the underground have uncovered the answer.

 

When exposed to the darkspawn taint, men are driven mad and eventually die. Women, however, undergo great pain and gross mutations that cause most of them to perish. Those that survive, however, become the grotesque broodmothers. These giant, twisted behemoths birth many darkspawn at a time; a single broodmother can create thousands of darkspawn over the course of her lifetime. Each type of darkspawn is born from a different broodmother: Humans produce hurlocks, dwarves produce genlocks, elves give birth to shrieks, and from Qunari are born the ogres.

 

What David Gaider said in an interview here

 

TUK: Do Grey Wardens still do the Calling, now that they know about Broodmothers? That was a really terrifying revelation in the first game "Oh my god, any women who are down here in the Deep Roads get taken off to spawn horrible monsters!"

 

DG: They always knew about Broodmothers, but they didn't know where Broodmothers came from. Knowing that...wow, I hadn't really considered whether they'd stop doing the Calling. I think if anything it makes it more problematic for female Wardens to do the Calling. That may be something we could incorporate into the future. It'd be an interesting question. Let's say a female Grey Warden starts to hear her Calling and says "Well, my time has come" and the rest of the Wardens say no, you can't go. You're a woman. You don't deserve to take part in what has been long, for many centuries, held as an honorable tradition, as a way for the Grey Wardens to go out in a way where they retain...I don't know if you read The Calling, the novel. The reason they do the Calling is because there's a tipping point at which the corruption in them starts to affect them physically, so rather than become some kind of ghoul they want to die while they still have their humanity, doing what they've spent the majority of their life dedicated to, killing darkspawn, one last hurrah. To go to a woman and say "No, you can't have this honorable ending because of what might happen to you." I think that would be an interesting story. I think in the end it might be up to the individual Warden. I could definitely see a female Warden who would rather kill herself than allow for the possibility that she could be transformed into a Broodmother.

[EmperorKarino]

Cailan's honour guard, of all people, says Cailan knew the battle would be lost (start of Return to Ostagar). When both the king and the general who managed to kick Orlais out are pretty sure a battle is lost, it probably is so. Everyone at Ostagar is positive because the higher-ups are not going to eff up morale by saying "yeah, chances are we'll lose". Regardless of whether it was actually possible, Loghain very clearly seems to think rescuing Cailan would've been impossible, even once recruited when all pretense is dropped.

 

Mind you, I've always felt Ostagar was a bit inconsistently written. To be expected I guess, once you hear of some of the plots that were originally in the game.

 

cailan's honour guard is one mans opinion, theres alot of clashing opinions in the games from various characters. i'm not gonna trust one mans word that the battle would have went south or not. the actual battle strategy for ostagar was sound. cailan, his honor guard and the wardens were just there to get the darkspawn to get out of the forest, Loghain's men were suppose to flank them, a flanking charge can make a big difference during a battle like that. besides, in the actual combat of the game, the darkspawn aren't very strong, the main advantage they have is sheer numbers, with the exception to the emissarys, ogres and the archdemon itself.

[Elite Midget]

To the average soldier the Darkspawn are really strong. Notice how the Origin characters are labelled as unique and highly skilled even before meeting Duncan.

[Former_Fiend]

cailan's honour guard is one mans opinion, theres alot of clashing opinions in the games from various characters. i'm not gonna trust one mans word that the battle would have went south or not. the actual battle strategy for ostagar was sound. cailan, his honor guard and the wardens were just there to get the darkspawn to get out of the forest, Loghain's men were suppose to flank them, a flanking charge can make a big difference during a battle like that. besides, in the actual combat of the game, the darkspawn aren't very strong, the main advantage they have is sheer numbers, with the exception to the emissarys, ogres and the archdemon itself.

 

The battle strategy was about as sound as it could have been, but the problem is they were working on very bad intel. It was established that most of their scouting parties and patrols were being slaughtered and several of those who had made it back were delirious with the effects of the taint and not able to give accurate reports. 

 

What they knew was that there were more darkspawn gathering and they had a rough time table for when they were going to converge on Ostagar. They didn't know just how many darkspawn were going to appear, though. They had probably made rough calculations based on how the horde had grown in the previous battles, but it turned out they were considerably more numerous than expected. They also didn't really account for the ogres.

 

Another thing they failed to take into account- and to be fair, there really isn't a way they could have defended against this - is the darkspawn's tunneling abilities which allowed them to bypass Cailen's defensive line. If you look at the battle from the bridge, there's combat throughout the army; the darkspawn have already got Cailen surrounded.

 

Take these things into account, that the darkspawn had considerably more numbers than the army had anticipated and that they were able to flank Cailen's force and disrupt the communications, and the battle was essentially unwinnable. 

 

And you're right that in combat the individual darkspawn are weaker than the Warden and their party members, but so are most human soldiers.