687 réponses à ce sujet

[Spicen]

It was unwinnable. The darkspawn sent ouut skirmish fighters in the first fights to see what the strategy of the humans were. This it was full out attack. But what i dont understand is that as a gw duncan shud hav realised the huge number and tried to escape with the king. Duncan was worth saving

[Spicen]

on a side note i hope to see the disciples.wud be interesting if they make a darkspawn nation. a civil one ofcourse

[BellaStrega]

Many of the arguments used to defend Loghain say a lot about a person.

 

I think strictly on the basis of Ostagar and nothing Loghain did after there are good reasons to side with or against Loghain.

 

The rest of it, though? Not remotely justifiable. Dude is basically a mad dog and needed to be put down or brought to heel to save Ferelden. He was prepared to take the entire country down with him.

[Former_Fiend]

Many of the arguments used to defend Loghain say a lot about a person.

 

I think strictly on the basis of Ostagar and nothing Loghain did after there are good reasons to side with or against Loghain.

 

The rest of it, though? Not remotely justifiable. Dude is basically a mad dog and needed to be put down or brought to heel to save Ferelden. He was prepared to take the entire country down with him.

 

I don't try and justify Loghain's actions, nor do I try and justify my decision to spare him.

 

If you made the decision to kill him in your game, that's fine. It's a perfectly reasonable and understandable decision.

[Daerog]

People like redemption stories. I liked Loghain. Unfortunately, like with the Architect, whom I also liked, he is killed by my human mage Warden in my main canon.

[dragonflight288]

It was unwinnable. The darkspawn sent ouut skirmish fighters in the first fights to see what the strategy of the humans were. This it was full out attack. But what i dont understand is that as a gw duncan shud hav realised the huge number and tried to escape with the king. Duncan was worth saving

 

I just replayed Ostagar today. They were pretty much surrounded almost as soon as the battle started, thanks to foolishly charging out of the bottleneck they were holding, and were vastly outnumbered. He probably held out hope that Loghain's charge would make the difference. 

 

Problem is, the beacon was lit way too late, and the darkspawn horde was still pouring out of the wilds when the beacon was lit. The plan was for the darkspawn to get committed, and then Loghain would come in from behind. 

 

Thing is, the devs have said that if Duncan had lived past Ostagar, he would've taken the Wardens out of the country to regroup with Wardens in Orlais. 

[BellaStrega]

I don't try and justify Loghain's actions, nor do I try and justify my decision to spare him.

 

If you made the decision to kill him in your game, that's fine. It's a perfectly reasonable and understandable decision.

 

Oh, no, that's not what I was getting at.

 

I mean people who go into in-depth justifications for Loghains actions throughout DA:O.

[Elite Midget]

It's about being wasteful or not.

 

Loghain lost his name, title, land, honor, position, following, support(For the most part), and pride. All he literally had left to give was his life, which Anora still wanted him to keep as she knew that killing her father would be a waste and wouldn't bring back Cailan(Whom Anora loved a great deal), so why not put that life to use under your command?

 

Fact is that Loghain is a brilliant tactician who has won many battles over the years and was key to Ferelden's independence in the past as well as being a very well-know warrior of great skill despite his advanced age. Furthermore the Grey Wardens take anyone who shows potential to become a Grey Warden.

 

After all, it's said that the Grey Wardens even accept rapists, thieves, mass murders, Kings, and the such into their Order if the need or potential is there since their old life, usually, no longer matters after becoming a part of the Order.

 

Furthermore, despite what Alistair says being a Grey Warden IS a punishment for many, and not an Honor, and not everyone wants to be a Grey Warden. The Player can and will be forced into service if you don't go willingly no matter your circumstances.

[dragonflight288]

Oh, no, that's not what I was getting at.

 

I mean people who go into in-depth justifications for Loghains actions throughout DA:O.

 

Most of us defending him are not defending his actions throughout the game. We defend his actions at Ostagar, seeing the tactical retreat as the best course of action. After the following Landsmeet, however, most, if not all of us stop defending him, but simply state we see where he's coming from.

 

Also, we don't lay ALL the blame on him because he can't magically control other people's actions, and take a step back to see who else shares it, even if in varying degrees. And it's important to note that he did not want a civil war, but the banns who rebelled against him and Anora did, and I think it's implied they struck the first blow, forcing Loghain to shift attention from the darkspawn to the nobles. 

 

You won't find anyone here defend him poisoning Eamon or selling elves into slavery. 

[AresKeith]

How dare does she have the audacity to get alive after i sent her head rolling. If i get the option in my evil account then shes ded, adviser or no

 

You know you didn't really cut her head off right?

[Elite Midget]

Arl Howe did the whole elf thing, I believe, and Loghain was in no position to really control him as he relied heavily upon Howe due to the Nobles rebelling. 

 

Eamon though, Loghain does share equal blame to that but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Howe's doing there as well or he persuaded Loghain to follow through with it like with hiring the Crows which Loghain hated.

[Pahldus]

To me Loghain's ending was quite simple. He authorized an assassination attempt on my life. I don't give a rat's ass what else he did, that ended his life, the same as it did for his little assassin. I have no playthroughs where Zevran or Loghain lived. I have a simple motto, you try to kill me and fail, that will lead to your death.

 

As to Loghain's motivations, he attempted to have Eamon and Teryn Cousland assassinated and removed before the Battle at Ostagar. Thus he never had any plan other than to let Duncan, the Grey Wardens and Caillan all die there. This was no tactical decision made based on the situation, but rather a cold calculated move based on his paranoia(whether correct or not matters not in the moment). He is a cold blooded killer, and I have no mercy for the man and no remorse over his death. He was guilty of treason and nearly got away with it. Glad my warden was there to expose him for the piece of dung that he was.

[Elite Midget]

Loghain didn't order Teryn Cousland's death, or at least it's never stated. All we know is that Howe did it and may have acted along considering how much Loghain hates assassination. 

 

Teryn Cousland also has a lot of respect towards Loghain and wouldn't believe rumors without substance against the man.

[Pahldus]

Fergus was sent into the Wilds on a near suicide scouting mission, and Howe was not there to give that order. Loghain, himself, gave the order to Jowan to poison Eamon. And do you really think Howe would have moved against Teryn Cousland without the full support of Loghain. Everything was planned ahead of time by Loghain to remove all obstacles to his taking over after Ostagar. I call it a coupe, and a bloody one at that.

 

Edit: and I know everyone who likes Loghain tries to pin it on Howe, but honestly, the only man who could have pulled all this off is Loghain. He is a usurper and that is all there is to it.

[BellaStrega]

Most of us defending him are not defending his actions throughout the game. We defend his actions at Ostagar, seeing the tactical retreat as the best course of action. After the following Landsmeet, however, most, if not all of us stop defending him, but simply state we see where he's coming from.

 

Also, we don't lay ALL the blame on him because he can't magically control other people's actions, and take a step back to see who else shares it, even if in varying degrees. And it's important to note that he did not want a civil war, but the banns who rebelled against him and Anora did, and I think it's implied they struck the first blow, forcing Loghain to shift attention from the darkspawn to the nobles. 

 

You won't find anyone here defend him poisoning Eamon or selling elves into slavery. 

 

Maybe not today and maybe not in this thread, but I've seen some things in my time on BSN.

 

As far as the civil war goes, the Banns had these reasons for turning against Loghain, reasons that make significantly more sense than 90% of what Loghain does in DA:O.
 

Also, I'm pretty sure Loghain never cared about the Darkspawn and was actually focused on a mythical Orlais invasion.

 

 

It's about being wasteful or not.

 

Loghain lost his name, title, land, honor, position, following, support(For the most part), and pride. All he literally had left to give was his life, which Anora still wanted him to keep as she knew that killing her father would be a waste and wouldn't bring back Cailan(Whom Anora loved a great deal), so why not put that life to use under your command?

 

Fact is that Loghain is a brilliant tactician who has won many battles over the years and was key to Ferelden's independence in the past as well as being a very well-know warrior of great skill despite his advanced age. Furthermore the Grey Wardens take anyone who shows potential to become a Grey Warden.

 

After all, it's said that the Grey Wardens even accept rapists, thieves, mass murders, Kings, and the such into their Order if the need or potential is there since their old life, usually, no longer matters after becoming a part of the Order.

 

Furthermore, despite what Alistair says being a Grey Warden IS a punishment for many, and not an Honor, and not everyone wants to be a Grey Warden. The Player can and will be forced into service if you don't go willingly no matter your circumstances.

 

Being wasteful is alienating the guy who's backed your moves every step of the way. Loghain's brilliant tactics led to civil war and opened the way for the Darkspawn to hit Ferelden, never mind his hiring the Antivan Crows to kill all the Grey Wardens. The game makes it workable to have Loghain in your group (at the cost of Alistair), just like the game has Loghain rip Ferelden apart thanks to his actions. Neither of these make much sense to me.

 

I guess this is an example of heroes living long enough to become villains...or the writers just plain overdid Loghain being a baddie in the first place.

[Eveangaline]

I assume if he's alive he might get a minor scene with the Gray wardens. I'll maybe see it when I import the run where he's alive.

[TK514]

Furthermore, despite what Alistair says being a Grey Warden IS a punishment for many, and not an Honor, and not everyone wants to be a Grey Warden. The Player can and will be forced into service if you don't go willingly no matter your circumstances.

 

This is what irritated me most about Alistair's tantrum.  Being a Grey Warden is not an honor.  It was never an honor.  It is a duty and a sacrifice.  Unless your name is Pretty Magical Girl Fiona, there is no scenario in which you are not ultimately destroyed by the Taint.  The Joining is a death sentence, either immediate or delayed.

[Elite Midget]

Fergus accepted that mission and Loghain's orders would still need to be run through Cailan. They needed scouting, they needed intel, and I highly doubt Loghain could have predicted that the Darkspawn would have dominated things as quickly as they did as none of them knew the Darkspawn's true numbers. 

 

Yes, he would because he would be Lord of a lot of land, supply, and troops thus Loghain couldn't deny Howe as going to war with Howe after ending up having to fight a Rebellion and the Darkspawn.

 

Furthermore Teyrn Cousland still respected Loghain, he had no reason to kill the man if his plan of covering up Cailan's possible death worked out. After all, the Grey Warden surviving is the only reason the plan failed as nobody had any proof or substance to their calls against Loghain thus Teryn Cousland would fight for Loghain to deal with the rebels.

[Elite Midget]

Maybe not today and maybe not in this thread, but I've seen some things in my time on BSN.

 

As far as the civil war goes, the Banns had these reasons for turning against Loghain, reasons that make significantly more sense than 90% of what Loghain does in DA:O.
 

Also, I'm pretty sure Loghain never cared about the Darkspawn and was actually focused on a mythical Orlais invasion.

 

 

 

Being wasteful is alienating the guy who's backed your moves every step of the way. Loghain's brilliant tactics led to civil war and opened the way for the Darkspawn to hit Ferelden, never mind his hiring the Antivan Crows to kill all the Grey Wardens. The game makes it workable to have Loghain in your group (at the cost of Alistair), just like the game has Loghain rip Ferelden apart thanks to his actions. Neither of these make much sense to me.

 

I guess this is an example of heroes living long enough to become villains...or the writers just plain overdid Loghain being a baddie in the first place.

Not at all.

 

Alistair is King, the people need a Strong King not an Overly Emotional King. Furthermore, Alistair leaving the Order pushes him to Lead and it will keep him off the front-lines and thus away from being threatened by the Archdemon.

 

Loghain cannot be held accountable that Nobles, and not all had good intentions, would rebel against him and Anora when Anora is their Rightful Queen. Furthermore Loghain hired the Crows, reluctantly, because if he was to unite Ferelden under his command he needed toput a stop to the rumors and the such that the Warden and their party was spreading throughout the land.

[Pahldus]

Fergus accepted that mission and Loghain's orders would still need to be run through Cailan. They needed scouting, they needed intel, and I highly doubt Loghain could have predicted that the Darkspawn would have dominated things as quickly as they did as none of them knew the Darkspawn's true numbers. 

 

Yes, he would because he would be Lord of a lot of land, supply, and troops thus Loghain couldn't deny Howe as going to war with Howe after ending up having to fight a Rebellion and the Darkspawn.

 

Furthermore Teyrn Cousland still respected Loghain, he had no reason to kill the man if his plan of covering up Cailan's possible death worked out. After all, the Grey Warden surviving is the only reason the plan failed as nobody had any proof or substance to their calls against Loghain thus Teryn Cousland would fight for Loghain to deal with the rebels.

But Teryn Cousland had a far more legitimate claim to become regent than Loghain, and Loghain in his paranoid mind would have seen him as a threat, it is not a matter of what Teryn Cousland would or wouldn't have done. Maybe you should go read up on paranoia, then maybe you would better understand what I am driving at.

[Treskalterion]

1. Cailan was NOT an idiot, he was acting up in order to hold the moral.

 

2. If you read the books you can see that Loghain destroyes more than he protects. Let me quote Nietsche "If you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss stares back into you". The thing is that bad things are always bound to happen. Because of that it is actually only important how you live through that. If you loose your very essence, what is the point of "winning" the war? [SPOILER]Loghain set Marick up in order to kill his Love, which destroyed him. Up until this point I thought Marick and Loghain were very great counterparts who complement each other. I didn't see the point! Loghain was rational but short sighted in other aspects.

I often think of Sargeras, when I read all of this. You need to protect the good inside of you or you will become the monster you tried to defeat.

 

3. I did not kill Loghain. Why would I? I went with the Grey wardens, swore an oath to protect people against the blight and did my best to support peace. And after preaching forgiveness, I kill him? It would not help anyone, it would not heal the wounds, it would not bring Duncan back, it would only cause more pain (to his daughter and others). Revenge is a cycal that never ends and leaves only emptiness.

[Former_Fiend]

Cailen was fighting on the front lines against an enemy who's blood is a biological weapon when he didn't have an heir to his throne. Cailen's death would have caused a succession crisis regardless of whether or not Loghain had throne his own life away trying to save him, especially since the two most viable claimants - Bryce and Eamon- were out of commission, though to be fair, he only learns about the former if the human noble warden tells him and never learns about the latter.

 

Still. Fighting on the front lines to boost troop morale is a risky but bold move. Fighting on the front lines against darkspawn to improve troop morale is stupid.

 

More to the point I've always been doubtful as to whether or not that was his actual motivation to start with. Wynne is the only real source for that view point and being naive and idealistic about military matters is part of her character. Wynne hardly knew Cailen; I don't know that she ever had a conversation with the man. Loghain knew him his whole life. He's hardly objective, but he's got a much larger base of experience to speak from in judging Cailen's motives. 

[Former_Fiend]

But Teryn Cousland had a far more legitimate claim to become regent than Loghain, and Loghain in his paranoid mind would have seen him as a threat, it is not a matter of what Teryn Cousland would or wouldn't have done. Maybe you should go read up on paranoia, then maybe you would better understand what I am driving at.

 

I'm one of Loghain's biggest supporters on these forums, but I've held Loghain accountable for what happened to the human noble in the past as well, before being informed that Gaider claimed that Loghain didn't order that, that Howe acted on his own and Loghain only became complicit in it after the fact.

[Treskalterion]

Cailen was fighting on the front lines against an enemy who's blood is a biological weapon when he didn't have an heir to his throne. Cailen's death would have caused a succession crisis regardless of whether or not Loghain had throne his own life away trying to save him, especially since the two most viable claimants - Bryce and Eamon- were out of commission, though to be fair, he only learns about the former if the human noble warden tells him and never learns about the latter.

 

Still. Fighting on the front lines to boost troop morale is a risky but bold move. Fighting on the front lines against darkspawn to improve troop morale is stupid.

 

More to the point I've always been doubtful as to whether or not that was his actual motivation to start with. Wynne is the only real source for that view point and being naive and idealistic about military matters is part of her character. Wynne hardly knew Cailen; I don't know that she ever had a conversation with the man. Loghain knew him his whole life. He's hardly objective, but he's got a much larger base of experience to speak from in judging Cailen's motives. 

Could it be that you never played the DLC? There is your proof...

[TEWR]

Bryce, being an ardent royalist, probably would have thrown his lot in with Anora and Loghain, since the former's the queen and all. I doubt he would have taken the throne for himself after Cailan's death, despite possibly being well poised to do so. Being a royalist doesn't mean being solely a Theirin person. We don't even know if he knew about Alistair. My guess is he didn't, since it didn't really involve him, but then he is an important noble in the Fereldan scene.