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[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I'm one of Loghain's biggest supporters on these forums, but I've held Loghain accountable for what happened to the human noble in the past as well, before being informed that Gaider claimed that Loghain didn't order that, that Howe acted on his own and Loghain only became complicit in it after the fact.

DG said Loghain didn't order it? seems kinda surprising to me, i wouldn't have thought that a cowardly snake like Howe would have wiped out the Couslands if he wasn't certain there'd be no punishment afterwards, which there wasn't thanks to the kings death soon afterwards.

[Spicen]

To me Loghain's ending was quite simple. He authorized an assassination attempt on my life. I don't give a rat's ass what else he did, that ended his life, the same as it did for his little assassin. I have no playthroughs where Zevran or Loghain lived. I have a simple motto, you try to kill me and fail, that will lead to your death.

As to Loghain's motivations, he attempted to have Eamon and Teryn Cousland assassinated and removed before the Battle at Ostagar. Thus he never had any plan other than to let Duncan, the Grey Wardens and Caillan all die there. This was no tactical decision made based on the situation, but rather a cold calculated move based on his paranoia(whether correct or not matters not in the moment). He is a cold blooded killer, and I have no mercy for the man and no remorse over his death. He was guilty of treason and nearly got away with it. Glad my warden was there to expose him for the piece of dung that he was.

+1. No one tries to kill ur protagonist and lives to tell the tale. and ur right about ostagar too

[Spicen]

3. I did not kill Loghain. Why would I? I went with the Grey wardens, swore an oath to protect people against the blight so, I kill him? It would not help anyone, it would not heal the wounds, it would not bring Duncan back, it would only cause more pain (to his daughter and others). Revenge is a cycal that never ends and leaves only emptiness.

Theres sth called justice which must be made. Why wud i turn my back to the most loyal companion for a doom raving lunatic. Justice for the elves, arl eamon, the circle, the templar in denerim castle, the son of an arl trapped in howe's castle, cailan, duncan, everyone at ostagar, for the warden himself (zev asassination) and justice for fereldan in general needed to be made. Thats why i killed him honorably. If i wanted revenge i wud hav sent him naked into scorpion's nest

[Urazz]

I'm not a Loghain supporter at all but I do think that Ostagar was a tactical retreat on Loghain's part.  We never did get to see how the battle was turning out from Loghain's point of view so it could very well have had the battle been lost by then, especially since the beacon was lit late as well.

 

I don't think Loghain intentionally set it up so that Cailan would die in the battle either.  Cailan was enough of a fool to do that on his own even with Loghain telling him otherwise.

 

I do hold Loghain accountable for what happened after Ostagar though.

[Lavaeolus]

DG said Loghain didn't order it? seems kinda surprising to me, i wouldn't have thought that a cowardly snake like Howe would have wiped out the Couslands if he wasn't certain there'd be no punishment afterwards, which there wasn't thanks to the kings death soon afterwards.

 

 

 

Gaider:  I don't think Loghain had anything to do with the death of the Couslands. Once it was done, however, there wasn't really anything he could do -- his alliance with Howe already existed, and the situation at Ostagar tied his hands. He couldn't get rid of the only powerful ally he had in his pocket.

[Magdalena11]

I will continue to regard Loghain's retreat as desertion and failing to execute a direct order regardless of at what point the decision was made.  He was the tactical advisor and his recommendations were overruled by his superior.  If the decisions were ill-advised, it was his job to relay his concerns and express alternatives, not disobey them because he felt the situation was worse than anticipated.

[Elite Midget]

 

But Teryn Cousland had a far more legitimate claim to become regent than Loghain, and Loghain in his paranoid mind would have seen him as a threat, it is not a matter of what Teryn Cousland would or wouldn't have done. Maybe you should go read up on paranoia, then maybe you would better understand what I am driving at.

I highly doubt so as he supported the throne thus he would support Queen Anora, especially with no proof to the rumors that don't really gain any grounds if the Warden had died at Ostagar with the rest. Furthermore losing Fergus would have compromised as well since as far as anyone knew Fergus died before the battle even started in a scouting mission. 

 

Furthermore he refused to see Howe acting out or the such because he trusted and respected the man, so if Howe never betrayed him than he would have had no reason to not to believe in Loghain whom he HIGHLY respected as a Hero that had saved Ferelden in the past. Not to mention that Teryn Cousland also loved thinking about past glory days as well so I doubt he would ever suspect Loghain of treachery and would kill any man or woman, unless you're his family, that would try and defame Loghain's name.

 

 

I will continue to regard Loghain's retreat as desertion and failing to execute a direct order regardless of at what point the decision was made.  He was the tactical advisor and his recommendations were overruled by his superior.  If the decisions were ill-advised, it was his job to relay his concerns and express alternatives, not disobey them because he felt the situation was worse than anticipated.

Loghain did place forth his concerns and even the army's soldiers, who knew little, weren't confident in victory. By the time the signal was lite the situation was way out of hand and there was nothing Loghain could have done so Loghain left Cailan to die alongside his foolish plan than to waste more troops to a lost cause. 

 

Even Duncan hated the plan and him going with it meant his death. Had the Warden not also survived than they all would have been screwed, even more so if Loghain committed his troops and thus they were wiped out as well thus leaving no strong standing army to keep the Darkspawn and Orlais in check. 

 

Considering how Orlais lost control of Ferelden there's no way that they wouldn't have taken advantage of no organized force being present in Ferelden and if Loghain had died? The Orlasiens would have taken up the role of "Hero" when in  reality they would be "Conquerors" and using the Blight as an excuse to take over the land "for the greater good".

[Hazegurl]

Many of the arguments used to defend Loghain say a lot about a person.

 

It doesn't say anything about anyone. No one should have to defend their IRL character simply because they defend a fictional character's actions in a fictional world. I hate Anders and can't see how anyone can defend him but I don't think posters who defend him should have their character called into question unless they flat out state questionable things about themselves.

[HiroVoid]

It doesn't say anything about anyone. No one should have to defend their IRL character simply because they defend a fictional character's actions in a fictional world. I hate Anders and can't see how anyone can defend him but I don't think posters who defend him should have their character called into question unless they flat out state questionable things about themselves.

Really?  I always just assumed everyone who supported Ander's actions supported the real life bombings of religious churches.

[dragonflight288]

DG said Loghain didn't order it? seems kinda surprising to me, i wouldn't have thought that a cowardly snake like Howe would have wiped out the Couslands if he wasn't certain there'd be no punishment afterwards, which there wasn't thanks to the kings death soon afterwards.

 

What would Loghain gain from ordering their deaths before Ostagar when they were already sending troops to reinforce them?

[Pahldus]

 

 

I highly doubt so as he supported the throne thus he would support Queen Anora, especially with no proof to the rumors that don't really gain any grounds if the Warden had died at Ostagar with the rest. Furthermore losing Fergus would have compromised as well since as far as anyone knew Fergus died before the battle even started in a scouting mission. 

 

Furthermore he refused to see Howe acting out or the such because he trusted and respected the man, so if Howe never betrayed him than he would have had no reason to not to believe in Loghain whom he HIGHLY respected as a Hero that had saved Ferelden in the past. Not to mention that Teryn Cousland also loved thinking about past glory days as well so I doubt he would ever suspect Loghain of treachery and would kill any man or woman, unless you're his family, that would try and defame Loghain's name.

 

 

Again, my comment is not about what Teryn Cousland would have done, but about Loghain believed he would have done. Loghain was paranoid. And remember neither him nor Anora are noble by birth, they are just commoners that Maric elevated. Loghain in his paranoia would have believed that the nobles would not support him.

 

Also, I am not saying he intended to kill Cailan, but it certainly appears that he wanted to remove anyone that Cailan trusted so that Cailan had to rely on him, thus insuring no deal would ever be struck with the Orlesians. In his paranoia, he had concluded that the Grey Wardens were involved in a secret plot with the Orlesians as they had suggested waiting for the Orlesian Grey Wardens. Loghain's paranoia drove him to do despicable things. He never had any intention of charging that field in Ostagar. He had already decided the Grey Wardens were enemies and needed to die. That Cailan was stupid enough to side with the enemy, sealed his fate, as Loghain says "Your faith in these here Grey Wardens will be your undoing." Paranoia is what caused everything he did, I am not saying whether that is a reason to forgive or not, but it is what it is.

 

I chose to kill him simply because I have a motto, "Try to kill me and fail, you just signed your death sentence" I never let anyone who tried to kill me, live. Hell I didn't even know that Zevran could be a companion until after my 3rd playthrough, when I saw it on the wiki.

[Pahldus]

What would Loghain gain from ordering their deaths before Ostagar when they were already sending troops to reinforce them?

 

Loghain is suffering from acute paranoia, there did not need to be anything gained. In this case it was removing a perceived threat.

[TK514]

What would Loghain gain from ordering their deaths before Ostagar when they were already sending troops to reinforce them?

 

Yeah, the timeline doesn't work out very well.  In order for him to have ordered the death of the Couslands, he would have had to have been plotting with Howe almost since the moment the Darkspawn were reported coming out of the Wilds.

[Dabrikishaw]

To be on topic, this is the most I expect out of a Grey Warden Loghian in DAI:

 

[dragonflight288]

Loghain is suffering from acute paranoia, there did not need to be anything gained. In this case it was removing a perceived threat.

 

A threat he saw from the Wardens and Cailan's naivety more from other nobles. This avenue of thought only works if he was planning Cailan's death from the very beginning. But we have word of Gaider saying he wasn't. 

 

Also, we have Word of Gaider saying it was strictly Howe's idea as a way to advance himself, and after it was done, Loghain had no choice but to go along with it because if he hadn't he would've lost his only truly powerful supporter. Howe now controlled the norther shores, and thus all the shipping, had a very large force of men.

[TK514]

I've often wondered how Howe thought he would legitimize his actions to the crown after the fact.  He had no way of knowing Cailan would die sending off what everyone believed at the time was just a large darkspawn raid, so he had to have had something he thought would be proof that he was justified.  Was it information on an Orlesian conspiracy?  I seem to recall hearing something like that.

[Elite Midget]

Again, my comment is not about what Teryn Cousland would have done, but about Loghain believed he would have done. Loghain was paranoid. And remember neither him nor Anora are noble by birth, they are just commoners that Maric elevated. Loghain in his paranoia would have believed that the nobles would not support him.

 

Also, I am not saying he intended to kill Cailan, but it certainly appears that he wanted to remove anyone that Cailan trusted so that Cailan had to rely on him, thus insuring no deal would ever be struck with the Orlesians. In his paranoia, he had concluded that the Grey Wardens were involved in a secret plot with the Orlesians as they had suggested waiting for the Orlesian Grey Wardens. Loghain's paranoia drove him to do despicable things. He never had any intention of charging that field in Ostagar. He had already decided the Grey Wardens were enemies and needed to die. That Cailan was stupid enough to side with the enemy, sealed his fate, as Loghain says "Your faith in these here Grey Wardens will be your undoing." Paranoia is what caused everything he did, I am not saying whether that is a reason to forgive or not, but it is what it is.

 

I chose to kill him simply because I have a motto, "Try to kill me and fail, you just signed your death sentence" I never let anyone who tried to kill me, live. Hell I didn't even know that Zevran could be a companion until after my 3rd playthrough, when I saw it on the wiki.

Loghain was not given any reason not to trust Teyrn Cousland as they are both veterans that love Ferelden and did fight to protect her from foreign occupation. You're trying to make Loghain seem like a madman when he really wasn't, his reasonings for what he did at Ostagar were very logical and we do know that he has a huge distaste for assassination. With the Grey Wardens he had no choice but to employ it, at Howe's urging, to help curb a rising rebellion. While with Teryn Cousland he would have zero reason to employ it, heck having Teryn Cousland at his side would have GREATLY benefited Loghain far more than Howe killing the man as Teryn Cousland was a Hero and a Royalists thus he would serve Queen Anora and bring much favor to Loghain's cause.

 

His fear of the Orlaisians isn't without cause, they treat Ferelden as if it's still their's and show no respect to them. Loghain also knew about the push for Cailan to abandon Anora for a certain Orlesian. If Cailan had married the woman than it would have firmly handed Ferelden over to Orlais upon a silver platter.

 

You misread Loghain, he doesn't blindly hate the Grey Wardens. What he hates is that they have so much pull on the King when there hasn't been a Blight for many years and Loghain believes in reality over long dead Legends. As far as Loghain was concerned they had outlived their importance and had no right to dabble in Ferelden politics hence why he sends orders that the Grey Wardens leave Ferelden or suffer the consequences. He doesn't organize manhunts for them and he does give them time to leave which they do. 

 

This is due in part because the Grey Wardens were now in backing with the Orlaisian forces thus if Loghain let them into Ferelden than the Grey Wardens would, by their rights, bring the Orliasian forces as well since they had committed to the Grey Warden cause.

 

How many of your companions did you kill? NPCs? I wonder, since a lot of character try to kill you - including companions.

[Elite Midget]

I've often wondered how Howe thought he would legitimize his actions to the crown after the fact.  He had no way of knowing Cailan would die sending off what everyone believed at the time was just a large darkspawn raid, so he had to have had something he thought would be proof that he was justified.  Was it information on an Orlesian conspiracy?  I seem to recall hearing something like that.

Cailan wouldn't know the circumstances though as Howe executed it rather quickly and covered it up. Only the Human Noble has legitimate voice, but it's a whole their word vs Howe, of the betrayal while all the other Nobles only have rumors. Hence why you had to find hard proof yourself, even if you were a Human Noble.

[Spicen]

woah guys calm down. this isnt about howes. loghain probably didnt know and since howe was his only trusyed ally(poor judgement, another of loghain's flaws).

[Dabrikishaw]

woah guys calm down. this isnt about howes. loghain probably didnt know and since howe was his only trusyed ally(poor judgement, another of loghain's flaws).

Howe just makes for such a good scapegoat for Loghain's post-Ostagar activity. I don't blame people for running back to that well.

[Pahldus]

Loghain trusted Howe? LOL. Loghain probably trusted about as far as he could throw him. Howe was a necessary evil.

 

Exactly, Loghain trusted nobody. He was paranoid, I mean when his own daughter starts to question him, he turns her over Howe. I don't believe Loghain is evil, Howe is, but Loghain does despicable things because of a mental issue. He is not a calm contemplative man like some propose. He is driven by paranoia(again right or not is not the issue) that does very vile things, things that earn him his death.

[Master Warder Z_]

Exactly, Loghain trusted nobody. He was paranoid, I mean when his own daughter starts to question him, he turns her over Howe. I don't believe Loghain is evil, Howe is, but Loghain does despicable things because of a mental issue. He is not a calm contemplative man like some propose. He is driven by paranoia(again right or not is not the issue) that does very vile things, things that earn him his death.

 

Except he ain't dead ._.

[dragonflight288]

Exactly, Loghain trusted nobody. He was paranoid, I mean when his own daughter starts to question him, he turns her over Howe. I don't believe Loghain is evil, Howe is, but Loghain does despicable things because of a mental issue. He is not a calm contemplative man like some propose. He is driven by paranoia(again right or not is not the issue) that does very vile things, things that earn him his death.

 

Did he turn her over to Howe, or did Anora put herself into that position to influence the Warden via Erlina?