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[Master Warder Z_]

Did he turn her over to Howe, or did Anora put herself into that position to influence the Warden via Erlina? 

 

She visited him, herself.

[Spicen]

Justified paranoia. Orlais was sending four legions of Chevalier to Ferelden. Orlais has done this during prior Blights as a military tactic. Send 'aid' then bring 'order to the land'. Except they never leave until they're fought out.

Better to be ruled by orlesians than become a ghoul due to the blight

[Elite Midget]

Better to be ruled by orlesians than become a ghoul due to the blight

You should read up on the Orlesian occupation, it wasn't all sunshines and rainbows and Ferelden's were treated as worse than trash by their oppressive overlords. There's a reason why Ferelden rebelled and killed them out, even when the odds of their success were nearly 0%, as they would rather die fighting as free men and women than to be ruled under the tyranny of the Orleasian overlords who constantly abused their power and used many underhanded, murderous, imprisonment, fear, rape, and the such tactics to try and force the Ferelden's to bend to their will like loyal "Dogs".

[Spicen]

You should read up on the Orlesian occupation, it wasn't all sunshines and rainbows and Ferelden's were treated as worse than trash by their oppressive overlords. There's a reason why Ferelden rebelled and killed them out, even when the odds of their success were nearly 0%, as they would rather die fighting as free men and women than to be ruled under the tyranny of the Orleasian overlords who constantly abused their power and used many underhanded, murderous, imprisonment, fear, rape, and the such tactics to try and force the Ferelden's to bend to their will like loyal "Dogs".

U think i dont know? This is reality of occupation(turn on ur newschannel and see wat is**** is doing). Thats wat occupiers do. But i find being called a dog is far more appealing than to be turned into a mindless ghoul.

[Jazzpha]

Clearly Loghain possesses the power of meta-awareness and realizes he's in a Fantasy RPG.

 

That, or he recognizes that the Wardens have a track record of stopping four Blights by now, and they probably have the fifth one on lockdown.

[Elite Midget]

U think i dont know? This is reality of occupation(turn on ur newschannel and see wat is**** is doing). Thats wat occupiers do. But i find being called a dog is far more appealing than to be turned into a mindless ghoul.

Yet the Grey Warden proved Loghain right - They didn't need Orlais to stop the Darkspawn. 

 

Cailan had all the resources within Ferelden to stop the Blight, yet he rushed to battle for glory and was practically handing over Ferelden to Orlais without a care. He even planned to wed the Empress who has been known to be a very dark person whose killed many innocents to ensure her rule.

 

In DAII it's said that many Nobles in Orlais plan to take back Ferelden despite what the Empress, whom they don't respect, wants.

[Pahldus]

Cailan had all the resources within Ferelden to stop the Blight, yet he rushed to battle for glory and was practically handing over Ferelden to Orlais without a care. He even planned to wed the Empress who has been known to be a very dark person whose killed many innocents to ensure her rule.

 

 

I call BS, I want proof to back this statement up.

[Shark17676]

Loghain nearly doomed the world to suffer through another long bloodbath of a Blight...and perhaps be outright destroyed if the Darkspawn won.  He was nothing but trash and my Warden took him out as such.

[Saberchic]

I call BS, I want proof to back this statement up.

I believe you find the evidence when you return to Ostagar in one of the dlcs.

[Jazzpha]

I call BS, I want proof to back this statement up.

 

Cailan's correspondence with Celene found in a chest during the "Return to Ostagar" DLC,

 

EDIT: What they said ^

[Elite Midget]

I call BS, I want proof to back this statement up.

You should play the DLCs and read the Novels, Cailan planned to divorce Anora for Celene and it was no secret to Loghain that something was up due to the calls for Cailan, by the Nobles which includes Eamon, to divorce Anora who was considered Barren after 5 years of Marriage with no conception.

 

Loghain nearly doomed the world to suffer through another long bloodbath of a Blight...and perhaps be outright destroyed if the Darkspawn won.  He was nothing but trash and my Warden took him out as such.

Loghain made mistakes, yes, but all signs didn't point to a real Blight as the Darkspawn were still highly disorganized and there was no Archdemon in sight. Heck, it didn't even appear til long after the Landsmeet was over. Not to mention that Loghain wasn't the only one that didn't believe it was a Blight and he was also not the only one that knew what the Orlesians would do if they were allowed to cross over into Ferelden with so many troops.

 

Had Cailan pulled back, regrouped, and didn't allow the Orlesians to bring in such a large force into Ferelden than I have no doubt that Loghain would have worked hard under Cailan's command to end the Darkspawn threat.

[Pahldus]

Cailan's correspondence with Celene found in a chest during the "Return to Ostagar" DLC,

 

EDIT: What they said ^

 

I believe you find the evidence when you return to Ostagar in one of the dlcs.

 

You need to read better. The letter from the Empress mentions a permanent alliance, but nothing of wedding. You are inferring your own statements.

 

Cailan,

The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course? The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.

-- "A note written in an uncharacteristally familiar tone from Empress Celene to King Cailan"

 

That is what the codex says

[Shark17676]

Loghain made mistakes, yes, but all signs didn't point to a real Blight as the Darkspawn were still highly disorganized and there was no Archdemon in sight. Heck, it didn't even appear til long after the Landsmeet was over. Not to mention that Loghain wasn't the only one that didn't believe it was a Blight and he was also not the only one that knew what the Orlesians would do if they were allowed to cross over into Ferelden with so many troops.

 

None of that makes me any more sympathetic to him.  The fact remains that Loghain was wrong and the entire world would've suffered the dire consequences of his fool actions.

 

And let's not forget the atrocities he committed and tried to commit over the course of DAO.  There's no doubt about it that he was a villain through and through.

[Pahldus]

You should play the DLCs and read the Novels, Cailan planned to divorce Anora for Celene and it was no secret to Loghain that something was up due to the calls for Cailan, by the Nobles which includes Eamon, to divorce Anora who was considered Barren after 5 years of Marriage with no conception.

 

Again which novel where. I played the DLC no proof there, only inferrences being made by your personal opinions.

[Pahldus]

 

 

Being friendly and personal doesn't state they were planning to wed, again just inferences. I asked for proof.

[TK514]

There's also the conversation in The Masked Empire between Celene and Briala where they discuss the failure of winning Ferelden through marriage due to Cailan's death.

[Pahldus]

There's also the conversation in The Masked Empire between Celene and Briala where they discuss the failure of winning Ferelden through marriage due to Cailan's death.

 

Okay, now that is the proof I was asking for, still doesn't prove necessarily that it was what Cailan was planning, but it is at least proof that a wedding was the Empress' plan. I have not read any of the books, but I did play the DLC and there was no proof there.

[Spicen]

Okay, now that is the proof I was asking for, still doesn't prove necessarily that it was what Cailan was planning, but it is at least proof that a wedding was the Empress' plan. I have not read any of the books, but I did play the DLC and there was no proof there.

Wat cailan did isnt the point. The atrocities committed by a man so blind by hatred that he cudnt see the threat of the darkspawn. What was it he said, oh yes i remember "the nobility will be brought to line and the horde defeated. This is no true blight anora".
We all know how that turned out

[Spicen]

Yet the Grey Warden proved Loghain right - They didn't need Orlais to stop the Darkspawn.

Cailan had all the resources within Ferelden to stop the Blight, yet he rushed to battle for glory and was practically handing over Ferelden to Orlais without a care. He even planned to wed the Empress who has been known to be a very dark person whose killed many innocents to ensure her rule.

In DAII it's said that many Nobles in Orlais plan to take back Ferelden despite what the Empress, whom they don't respect, wants.

If u want tl defend loghain based on pointless arguments, do so. I suppose Loghain had a copy of those grey warden treaties. Even with the army ur party says that they are outnumbered 3 to 1. Just like loghain u cant see. Without the gw, no mages cud hav helped maybe a few templars. And forget about mentioning the elves and dwarves. Not to mention eamon's army wud have been non existent.

[Spicen]

Keep burying your head in the sand while ignoring the writing on the wall if it makes you feel better

The same could be said about u too. Aargghh, ill send my tranquil to deal with u.
Spicen's tranquil: I propose we agree to disagree