694 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Can we tone down the confrontational attitudes a bit before the thread gets locked?

[dlux]

Adding options and interactions increases complexity. It does not necessarily increase depth.

Yes. Nobody ever claimed anything else. 
 
Only this one guy who claimed that complexity has nothing to do with depth.
 

Can we tone down the confrontational attitudes a bit before the thread gets locked?

Well, I was afraid this might happen. Aren't you happy?
 
D:AO combat vs. DA2 combat thread number 2027828.

[CronoDragoon]

Well, I was afraid this might happen. Aren't you happy?

Not really. It's rare that anyone actually presents arguments with supporting evidence in this comparison. I've gotten some of that and want it to continue, especially as it relates to what we can expect in Inquisition.

[LinksOcarina]

Maybe you should actually try to prove me wrong and stop pointing fingers at me, just because you're a butthurt DA2 fan. My list isn't complete, but I could write a thesis about this and you would still say i'm wrong and claim that DA2 had "teh bestest combats eva".
 
DA:O had much more depth; the combat was also way better. This is also the general consensus. Just read the reviews about DA2 and feel enlightened (which you won't).

No, the onus is on you now. also don't throw opinion at me like its a fact, that's just a fast track to going in a circle.

[dlux]

Not really. It's rare that anyone actually presents arguments with supporting evidence in this comparison. I've gotten some of that and want it to continue, especially as it relates to what we can expect in Inquisition.

Well, it's a sensitive subject where somebody always gets butthurt. Better to not try and start a discussion.

I leave people alone when they say that DA2 had better combat. Sadly the DA2 fans can't do the same when someone mentions that DA:O had better and deeper combat. Just look at this thread.
 

No, the onus is on you now. also don't throw opinion at me like its a fact, that's just a fast track to going in a circle.

I never wrote that it is a fact, I wrote that it is the general consensus. Comprehension skills FTW.

[LinksOcarina]

I never wrote that it is a fact, I wrote that it is the general consensus. Comprehension skills FTW.

 

Which is still an opinion, one you share, and one that you use as a fact against those who disagree or challenge you, without putting forward much evidence to the contrary on your end regarding vague points that are interpretive at best.

 

 And that's not putting words in your mouth, its actually reading what you wrote in the past few posts. Learn how to debate before you plunge in next time. 

[dlux]

Which is still an opinion, one you share, and one that you use as a fact against those who disagree or challenge you without much evidence to the contrary over vague points that are interpretive at best.

 

 And that's not putting words in your mouth, its actually reading what you wrote in the past few posts. Learn how to debate before you plunge in next time. 

Well, you could start your "debate" by actually stating facts why DA2's combat is so superior, which you don't. You just point fingers, put words in my mouth and refuse to acknowledge the general consensus. We could have discussed the points about DA2 that I mentioned, but you chose to flame instead.

 

Anyway, I am done responding to your flame posts. FYI, Debating ≠ Flaming.

[Andraste_Reborn]

You know, this argument just came up for the 2027829th time in the Feedback forum, so I'm just gonna quote myself:

 

 

I love DA2 combat. Just finished my eighth run half an hour ago! (Probably the last for now, but I imagine I'll go back some day.)

 

Things I found more fun and strategic about the DA2 combat include: faster pacing, more interesting animations, cross-class combos, enemy elemental immunities, no health potion spamming, assassins that stab you in the kidneys and steal your stuff, the entire Force Mage tree, warriors causing friendly fire damage, boss fights that require different strategies to normal combat and Merrill. Just ... Merrill. (I'm never sure if she's my favourite companion because of Eve Myles, or because her specialist tree is so amazing.) I could probably keep going for a while, but those were the first ten things that sprang to mind.

 

There are also a handful of things about it that I find worse in the sequel, like the frequently poor encounter design that included too much padding things out with endless waves, and the inability to scout ahead with stealth and use traps. However, the positives definately outweighed the negatives for me. Now that they've seemingly learned their lesson about the proper use of wave combat (it was done much better in the DLCs) and we have traps again, I have high hopes for DAI.

 

So those are a few things I like about DA2 combat, as well as a couple of its flaws. I can probably think of others, but I should really go to bed.

 

OK, just one more: I thought one benefit of the waves was that you couldn't just use choke points to solve every problem. They're still important and useful, but you can't just herd every foe into the doorway and cast Storm of the Century on them while your tank stands there drinking healing potions. The need to watch out for enemies flanking you or falling on your head adds strategy. (Although it happens too often and they look silly parachuting from the ceiling.)

[Gtdef]

 

Lets have only one spell and only one attack and bind both to the A button so we can spam it, because complexity has nothing to do with depth. Absolutely nothing. lol  

 

You are wrong. And I will counter your list point for point

 

Offensive modifier party buffs for DA2. Elemental weapons (changing depending on staff type), Might Rally, Heroic Aura, Haste

Offensive modifier party buffs for DAO, Haste, Heroic Offense, Weapon enhancements

 

Control and debuffs

Rogue provides 2 aoe stuns, 50%  attack speed debuff, obscuring (50% avoidance), threat manipulation and redirection and trades some stupid -10 defense debuffs he had in DAO

Mage has panic effects, position and terrain manipulation, critical damage debuff in addition to paralyze, stun, slow, elemental vulnerability, dispel

Warrior is about the same. Knockbacks, taunt and stagger effect

 

Resistances invulnerabilities, what the hell are you even talking about.

http://dragonage.wik...(Dragon_Age_II)

 

If anything, resistances in DAO were irrelevant cause blood wound lol. Plus dao has all the spells in different elemental versions, so if one doesn't work, use the other. DA2 resistances have a higher impact on gameplay, especially on Nightmare since they become immunities.

 

 

For the depth vs complexity

 

DAO has mass paralysis, sleep, blizzard, cone of cold, blood wound. All have aoe control.

Blood Wound is so stronger that using the others instead is handicapping yourself. That's a case of complexity not providing depth.

 

Having loads of the same abilities with different colors doesn't do anything for depth. Doesn't provide additional ways to play, or enables combos, help with synergy etc. It only makes optimization a mindless process of elimination and makes players that only care about the roleplaying aspect happy because they can create the STORM OF THE CENTURY.

 

Gear scales better in DA2 than DAO, but the difference isn't that big by the end game for melee classes. Enemies are stronger in DA2. Still both games aren't balanced. DAO has a class that can beat the game naked. DA2 is at the other extreme for that class. If you think this makes DAO a superior experience then that's ok.

 

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about and just like making lists. You should make a youtube channel and start doing top 10 videos, they are all the rage. Top 10 most brutal breakdowns in deathcore, top 10 spells in DAO. Etc.

[RustyW]

Opinions we love them, people just need to remember, one opinion maybe more popular than another, yet the most important thing is to respect them all and just relax

[FieryDove]

I agree.

 

(waves white flag)

 

 

I like the staff twirl. Glad to see it back. Hope it stays.

[LinksOcarina]

I agree.

 

(waves white flag)

 

 

I like the staff twirl. Glad to see it back. Hope it stays.

staff twirls are always awesome. 

 

We need a staff-fu skill tree in the game. Something for melee mages. Any hope on that yet? Will we see a specialization/talent tree video?

[Maria Caliban]

Yes.

I'm glad you agree with me.

[The Night Haunter]

staff twirls are always awesome. 

 

We need a staff-fu skill tree in the game. Something for melee mages. Any hope on that yet? Will we see a specialization/talent tree video?

I was hoping that Knight Enchanter would be melee based, either with a sword (which would be awesome) or just utilizing the staff in a melee fashion. It would actually be cool if specializations were similar to Pathfinder Archetypes (or Kits in BG2), where they actually do more than just give you additional abilities, but actually modify how the class is played. If Knight Enchanter actually reduced the range of your spells (forcing you into melee) and allowed you to equip real armor and weapons that would be one of my favorite classes ever (huge Magus fan in Pathfinder).

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

Personally if I can contribute to the derail, I found DA:O combat more satisfying than DA2 combat and massively preferred Origins animations and overall artstyle - I always felt like I was in a goddamn anime in DA2 combat, especially as a 2 handed warrior, and the darkspawn redesign made me think of a cheesy saturday morning cartoon.  On the other hand, DA2 was probably better balanced - each class contributed something, you did need to keep upgrading your gear, and you had to bother investing in making potions and such if you wanted to do decently which I pretty much never had to in Origins.  

 

Having said all that, I like the look of Inquisition's combat.  The motions still look a little too grandiose for my tastes and I'd really like to see the tactics menu, but the abilities look cool and easily useable, the character portraits are nice, and it looks like they've improved the tactics screen to give you information about an enemy so you don't spam the first dragon you meet with fire attacks and watch as it laughs at you.  Also it looks like it shows you how the character will move across the battlefield, preventing the origins/2 issue of characters merrily traipsing through aoe attacks due to bad pathfinding.  

[Brogan]

Also, I don't see why this playstyle keeps getting tied to the camera mode. I played tactically in DAO while mostly leaving the camera low.

 

This is an issue that is still, amazingly, a huge question mark for DAI, specifically because there has yet to be any info regarding the PC interface.  We know it exists, but that's about it.

 

Will the Tac Cam be redundant for the pc ui.  That's what everyone wants to know. Because if it isn't, that means they changed something fundamental regarding playstyle.

[Shadow Fox]

I don't get why people seem to be in camps over realtime vs turn-based. Can't we love and appreciate the benefits of both styles? =)

*turns off her turn-based strategy game Fire Emblem and boots up Street Fighter 4*

On the net?

 

[Uccio]

That mage dancing around the pole (staff) makes me want to throw some money.

 

It is just wayyy too active. Mages are supposed to control magic through willpower and concentration. How the heck is that done with such gymanstics?

[seraphymon]

Cross Class Combing to push DPS numbers up in Dragon Age 2 and to synergize your team, which compensated for the lack of tactical terrain usage in Origins that really didn't need a balanced team to take down anything but big bosses. 

 

An example, a Mage in Origins can basically solo a massive mob by funneling them into a smaller space. I did it all the time and it made the game very rote and boring. A Mage in 2 could rarely do that, so instead had to rely on staggers from a teamate, or your own brittle attacks to help in damage output against bigger mobs. The same problem occurred though in 2 because it also became mechanical when the best combinations and teammates were figured out. Both have strengths and weaknesses.

 

I would also argue that equipment in 2 is much more important than it was in Origins, but thats a long discussion. Still, it's part of the depth. 

Wow soo much argument now in DAO vs DA2 combat.  Both are very different and that all is dependant on the enemy encounter. There is flaws to each one. Though DA2 I think  is quite inferior still  to DAO.  The enemy in DA2 always scaled  and it was just an HP grind with very.. and I mean very little thought going in. The higher the difficulty, sure the more thought went in. Especially on nightmare. But in such a cheap way. Friendly fire was ridiciulous as one ability killed your entire team. and of course resistances. Cross class combos were nice, but having them happen every fight or needing them every fight is just as boring.   Gear is also more crucial in DA2 and that is a bad thing. Because enemies scaled you essentially got weaker when you leveled. If not for the soft cap you would essentially screw yourself as you level up past the max armor available. Thats why you essentially needed the scales with level gear. 

 

With how fast paced DA2 was and the long cooldown times it made combat boring as a warrior or rogue. Use abilities  and then wait  and wait, doing nothing but auto attack. I found myself switching to mages at times just to have something to press, other than the awesome button which was nothing. 

[Joseph Warrick]

Looking at the video again, I still like the fireworks but sometimes it's hard to follow what's going on when there is more than one effect, like here.

 

Also noticed warriors making effects that look like magic, examples here and here.

[Jazzpha]

I assume that the potential "distractions" in DAI's combat (eg, flashy animations) will cease to be an issue once we have spent some time with the combat system itself and know how everything works. It took me hours and hours before I was comfortable with the intricacies of DAO's combat mechanics compared to other games I'd played, but by the time I got to the second Main Quest area it had all started to feel logical, seamless and smooth.

I assume DAI's combat will be similar. I think it's worth keeping in mind that the devs playing the demos have had j rim ate knowledge of the game and its systems for some time now-- what looks flashy and chaotic to us is likely very deliberate and methodical to them from an execution standpoint.

[Malanek]

I think it's the first time I have seen that. Does anyone know if you can zoom out further than that?

[Altima Darkspells]

Hmmm, maybe the staff twirlies are there when autoattacking while standing still and the hand thing is there when AA-ing while moving.

[dlux]

You are wrong. And I will counter your list point for point

Well, you can't be right on these forums anymore unless you praise DA2's combat and declare DA:Os combat as shallow, slow and boring (one or all of those three). I kind of get that now.

[Rawgrim]

How is DA2 any more hack and slash than origins?

 

Because you can beat it by button mashing. The combat plays like a Diablo game - wich is a hack and slash game.